RadioFreeLiberal.com

Smart Voices, Be Heard
It is currently Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:27 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Our New President
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:05 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 11386
Location: Sunny South Florida
www.youtube.com Video from : www.youtube.com


Sundance Film Review: ‘Our New President’
A revealing documentary looks at Donald Trump in the scary funhouse mirror of Russian media. It's a lot like the fake news here, only more so.
http://variety.com/2018/film/reviews/ou ... 202669658/

The movie, directed by Maxim Pozdorovkin (“Pussy Riot: A Punk Prayer”), is a compilation of archival clips from contemporary Russian television that presents the American political circus — in particular, the election and presidency of Donald Trump — as it’s been portrayed in the funhouse mirror of Russian media. What we see, in clip after clip, is an overheated and jarring mélange of conspiracy theory and authoritarian hero worship that makes your average Rush Limbaugh ranting session sound like a Bill Moyers seminar. Yet most of the “information” has been drawn out of the same well of paranoid fantasy that has helped to poison U.S. political discourse.

[snip][end]

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:50 am 
Online
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 36249
The question is simple, Joe and glen. Which side are you on?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:37 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:07 am
Posts: 10156
The question is simple, Joe and glen. Which side are you on?


That question is not simple, it's loaded GoUnion. "Which side are you on?" implies that there are only two sides. Some kind of monochromatic good and evil overlay falsely applied to the real world with a wide spectrum of many possible positions.

It denies the existence of the middle ground Joe and Glen appear to occupy. You didn't ask me but had you it would deny the existence of the middle ground I occupy as well.

That middle ground I occupy leans a long way to the left, but the place I stand is not next to an imaginary partisan wall.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:47 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:10 pm
Posts: 17166
Location: The blue parts of the map
Which side are you on? is a folk tune from the 1930s Harlan County coal wars.

They say in Harlan County
There are no neutrals there
You'll either be a union man
Or a thug for J.H. Blair

Blair was the sheriff, and also on the payroll of the mining company, which literally owned the cops. You can't think in today's terms. The companies owned the towns. They owned the houses, they owned the stores, they owned the cops. Some of the "law enforcement" bordered on terrorism. The song was written after a particularly nasty episode of police misconduct.

Several times it degenerated into a real shooting war, and the National Guard was sent in three times.

In that context, there were only two sides. If you were ambivalent, you'd probably be labelled either union or company, justifiably or otherwise, and someone or other would want you dead. It's not that bad now, but with the present crowd running things, I can see it from here.

_________________
We used to hang our traitors. Now we elect them to lead us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:04 pm 
Online
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 36249

That question is not simple, it's loaded GoUnion. "Which side are you on?" implies that there are only two sides. Some kind of monochromatic good and evil overlay falsely applied to the real world with a wide spectrum of many possible positions.

It denies the existence of the middle ground Joe and Glen appear to occupy. You didn't ask me but had you it would deny the existence of the middle ground I occupy as well.

That middle ground I occupy leans a long way to the left, but the place I stand is not next to an imaginary partisan wall.

I don't believe there's a middle ground when dealing with Russia. Maybe you do. But I see Putin as an enemy to our nation, a man who wants to see us destroyed.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:32 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:07 am
Posts: 10156
I don't believe there's a middle ground when dealing with Russia. Maybe you do. But I see Putin as an enemy to our nation, a man who wants to see us destroyed.


I see a lot of middle ground left with regard to Russia. All of the options which exist between doing nothing at all, and all out war.

If there's no middle ground left that implies a complete and total break down of diplomatic relations, the military definition of war. I read your statement as being akin to saying all we have left is war. If it's not that hard line what could it be?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:54 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 11386
Location: Sunny South Florida
What I found most interesting about this documentary is it seems some of what Russian trolls were spreading on social media, or RT/Sputnik, is nonsense Russians watch all the time on their "regular" media. Or at least did during the 2016 elections. They don't really sample beyond that.

Dunno. It's just odd. I know there is plenty wrong with the "lame stream" media in our own country, but I just wouldn't really expect to see regular U.S. news anchors stopping to go into an aside about how Hillary Clinton is really a sorceress in league with the Devil ... or all this other bizarre shit.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Last edited by ProfessorX on Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:00 pm 
Online
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 36249

I see a lot of middle ground left with regard to Russia. All of the options which exist between doing nothing at all, and all out war.

If there's no middle ground left that implies a complete and total break down of diplomatic relations, the military definition of war. I read your statement as being akin to saying all we have left is war. If it's not that hard line what could it be?

A really stupid way to try to put words into my mouth. No, I didn't say anything about war. Putin doesn't want to invade America, he wants to destroy it, for instance have the economy implode, or otherwise destroyed from within. Having a puppet government would be okay with him too.

Vladimir Putin is NOT our friend. He is an enemy of this nation, he does NOT wish us well.

Of course, maybe you're with Joe and glen that Vlad is just a wonderful guy, and it's just fine that Trump was colluding with him - after all, the Republicans won, so what do they care about the fairness of our elections?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:28 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:07 am
Posts: 10156
A really stupid way to try to put words into my mouth. No, I didn't say anything about war. Putin doesn't want to invade America, he wants to destroy it, for instance have the economy implode, or otherwise destroyed from within. Having a puppet government would be okay with him too.

Vladimir Putin is NOT our friend. He is an enemy of this nation, he does NOT wish us well.

Of course, maybe you're with Joe and glen that Vlad is just a wonderful guy, and it's just fine that Trump was colluding with him - after all, the Republicans won, so what do they care about the fairness of our elections?


Using a dictionary is a really stupid way to try to put words into your mouth?

Destroy; put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it; defeat (someone) utterly; annihilate, wipe out, obliterate, wipe off the face of the earth, eliminate, eradicate, liquidate, finish off, erase.

:|

Hmm, In the future I will assume you're like a head gladiator coach giving his pat speech at the weekly pep rally in front of the whole high school student body.

In other words I will assume being destroyed means at years end only getting a one foot tall trophy with a single column of honor for the trophy case, instead of getting one three foot tall with three columns of honor.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:56 pm 
Online
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 36249

Using a dictionary is a really stupid way to try to put words into your mouth?

Destroy; put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it; defeat (someone) utterly; annihilate, wipe out, obliterate, wipe off the face of the earth, eliminate, eradicate, liquidate, finish off, erase.

:|

Hmm, In the future I will assume you're like a head gladiator coach giving his pat speech at the weekly pep rally in front of the whole high school student body.

In other words I will assume being destroyed means at years end only getting a one foot tall trophy with a single column of honor for the trophy case, instead of getting one three foot tall with three columns of honor.

Looks like nuance isn't your strong point, eh?

We were enemies with Russia for decades without a war. I guess history isn't your strong point, either.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:08 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:07 am
Posts: 10156
Looks like nuance isn't your strong point, eh?

We were enemies with Russia for decades without a war. I guess history isn't your strong point, either.


I was there GoUnion, in the Air Force. Being destroyed had meaning. We didn't use the word to mean mildly inconvenienced. :|


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:56 pm 
Online
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 36249

I was there GoUnion, in the Air Force. Being destroyed had meaning. We didn't use the word to mean mildly inconvenienced. :|

Yep, you don't understand nuance.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:08 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:07 am
Posts: 10156
Yep, you don't understand nuance.


I began this conversation with you by stating "That question is not simple, it's loaded GoUnion. "Which side are you on?" implies that there are only two sides. Some kind of monochromatic good and evil overlay falsely applied to the real world with a wide spectrum of many possible positions."

The topic in that is nuance GoUnion. I was in essence stating that you were loading your question in a way such as to deprive Joe and Glen of the possibility of expressing a nuanced position.

:|

Then you took off on a dodge about your belief that there's no middle ground when dealing with Russia. How you "see Putin as an enemy to our nation, a man who wants to see us destroyed."

:|

Nuance.

:|


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:42 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:07 am
Posts: 10156
What I found most interesting about this documentary is it seems some of what Russian trolls were spreading on social media, or RT/Sputnik, is nonsense Russians watch all the time on their "regular" media. Or at least did during the 2016 elections. They don't really sample beyond that.

Dunno. It's just odd. I know there is plenty wrong with the "lame stream" media in our own country, but I just wouldn't really expect to see regular U.S. news anchors stopping to go into an aside about how Hillary Clinton is really a sorceress in league with the Devil ... or all this other bizarre shit.


I thought the video was kind of weird. I didn't view it as being anything.

In Russia the same as we have here there are 24 hours of air time a day for many media outlets to fill. Here we know who are the mainstream outlets, but we don't know who are the mainstream outlets are there. Imagine if someone there were to make a video like this and chose some of our less mainstream media outlets to feature what could it be like.

I looked into this Field of Vision, they are owned by First Look Media, who is bankrolled by the billionaire Pierre Omidyar who founded E Bay. First Look Media was created to provide a platform for Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras, and Jeremy Scahill. First Look Media operates The Intercept, The Nib, Field of Vision, and Topic.com.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:05 am 
Online
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 36249
No, Sam, you are the one the one that doesn't get nuance. You tried to say that I want war with Russia, and if you don't want war, then you are on the other side. Not true at all.

Russia isn't our friend. Putin is a KGB goon, and that's who runs Russia today. No one is in favor of going to war with Russia. We went through the cold war without an actual war. Putin wants to destabilize and control our nation without a war. He wants to control our elections.

We don't have to let him. We don't have to go to war to stop him. We just need to decide whether we shall allow the Republicans to sell our government out to the Russians. Which side are you on?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:34 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 11386
Location: Sunny South Florida
I looked into this Field of Vision, they are owned by First Look Media, who is bankrolled by the billionaire Pierre Omidyar who founded E Bay. First Look Media was created to provide a platform for Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras, and Jeremy Scahill. First Look Media operates The Intercept, The Nib, Field of Vision, and Topic.com.


Sam, Field of Vision didn't produce the film. It looks like they did take that 12 minute segment, and featured it. But the entire film is 77 minutes, and was produced by Impact Partners/Third Party Films.

It won an award at the Sundance Festival. (I understand for many that may lack importance. :mrgreen: )

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/revie ... 18-1075830

Composed entirely from footage drawn from Russia's state-sponsored propaganda machine and amateur YouTube clips, Maxim Pozdorovkin's documentary explains why the Russians are proud to call Donald Trump 'Our New President.'

[snip]

Directed by New York-based Maxim Pozdorovkin, whose earlier doc Pussy Riot: A Punk Prayer won a prize at Sundance in 2013, this impishly assembled collage film draws entirely on archive footage, YouTube clips and fair-use-sanctioned snatches from State-owned TV channels to show how Vladimir Putin, professional propagandists and the average Russian Trump fan in the street view the key players in the 2016 election.

Granted, the framing device is a bit clunky, the cut-off point sometime around the Hamburg G20 conference seems a bit arbitrary, and the provenance of some clips a bit confusing. Nevertheless, this is still an impressively assembled work, edited with brio by Pozdorovkin and Matvey Kulakov. Moreover, even the most hardened news junkies, accustomed by now to the near-daily drip-feed of crass, offensive utterances from Trump and his more troglodyte American supporters, may gasp at the open misogyny, racism and sheer stupidity on display here from some citizens of the steppes. It's not all positive, however — a TV palm reader traces a line on Trump's unusually short thumb, as he points out, indicating a lack of higher cognitive ability.

It's worth stressing that there's no fresh news revealed here: All this material was already in the public domain, and the Russian press and public don't necessarily know any more about the extent of their government's tactics to shape the election than we in the West do. They're just less shocked by it.

Explanatory title cards are sporadically deployed to fill in background or explain who key figures are, such as news anchor/executive and Russia's answer to Sean Hannity, Dmitry Kiselyov, or sinister Bond villainess-in-training Margarita Simonyan, the head of international cable network RT. But outside these occasional bursts of onscreen text as well as unnecessary, quasi-academic "chapter" headings, Pozdorovkin lets the footage effectively speak for itself or at least through juxtaposition, so that a rough narrative shape starts to emerge.

The aforementioned framing device focuses on Hillary Clinton's 1997 day trip during a state visit when she was still First Lady to see the mummified corpse of a Siberian "princess" that archeologists had recently uncovered. According to one Russian conspiracy theory, this encounter may have cursed Clinton, leading to the spasms, fainting fits and "signs of dementia" that she supposedly demonstrated many years later when she was on the 2016 campaign trail. Regardless of her state of health, it's clear that Russian media, in line with Putin, considered her policies threatening and ran her down relentlessly through its various channels.

Trump isn't even mentioned or seen onscreen until about 15 or 20 minutes into the doc, and pretty much right off the bat he's seen as a figure of fun, a flunky for Putin, but at least welcome proof according to one YouTuber that "a women can never be made president." Elsewhere, tow-headed Slavic kids are seen celebrating his victory over Clinton, while various sweaty men with poor camerawork skills record themselves drinking vodka toasts to him or performing self-penned folky tributes on accordions and guitars. The best song by some distance, possibly one composed with more irony than Pozdorovkin would allow, is a tribute to the troll farms of St. Petersburg.

It's a tough call which is more horrifying, these amateur paeans to the man who lost the popular vote but still won the race, or the nakedly, unabashedly partisan proclamations and misinformation from the state media. Either way, without taking any particular stand on whether the Russians decisively swung the result of the 2016 election or just nudged it along, the film makes it clear just how insidious, relentless and brazen their propaganda effort was, seeding memes that metastasized virulently throughout the world.

[snip][end]

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:13 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:07 am
Posts: 10156
No, Sam, you are the one the one that doesn't get nuance. You tried to say that I want war with Russia, and if you don't want war, then you are on the other side. Not true at all.

Russia isn't our friend. Putin is a KGB goon, and that's who runs Russia today. No one is in favor of going to war with Russia. We went through the cold war without an actual war. Putin wants to destabilize and control our nation without a war. He wants to control our elections.

We don't have to let him. We don't have to go to war to stop him. We just need to decide whether we shall allow the Republicans to sell our government out to the Russians. Which side are you on?


Oh, so that's what it is, you don't like to have your freedom to see and express the nuance you see in a situation confined. You want to be able to use the nuance you see to conditionally express your positions.

You just want to be able to continue to suppress that ability with Joe, Glen, and when you disagree with me, with me. I notice you're still pressing forward with your stupid "Which side are you on?" question even after going through all of this.

Much in the same way you press those stupid yes / no hostile questions on others, which also loads and suppress the ability of another to see and express the nuance they see in a situation.

:|


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:52 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:07 am
Posts: 10156

Sam, Field of Vision didn't produce the film. It looks like they did take that 12 minute segment, and featured it. But the entire film is 77 minutes, and was produced by Impact Partners/Third Party Films.

It won an award at the Sundance Festival. (I understand for many that may lack importance. :mrgreen: )

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/revie ... 18-1075830

Composed entirely from footage drawn from Russia's state-sponsored propaganda machine and amateur YouTube clips, Maxim Pozdorovkin's documentary explains why the Russians are proud to call Donald Trump 'Our New President.'

[snip]

Directed by New York-based Maxim Pozdorovkin, whose earlier doc Pussy Riot: A Punk Prayer won a prize at Sundance in 2013, this impishly assembled collage film draws entirely on archive footage, YouTube clips and fair-use-sanctioned snatches from State-owned TV channels to show how Vladimir Putin, professional propagandists and the average Russian Trump fan in the street view the key players in the 2016 election.

Granted, the framing device is a bit clunky, the cut-off point sometime around the Hamburg G20 conference seems a bit arbitrary, and the provenance of some clips a bit confusing. Nevertheless, this is still an impressively assembled work, edited with brio by Pozdorovkin and Matvey Kulakov. Moreover, even the most hardened news junkies, accustomed by now to the near-daily drip-feed of crass, offensive utterances from Trump and his more troglodyte American supporters, may gasp at the open misogyny, racism and sheer stupidity on display here from some citizens of the steppes. It's not all positive, however — a TV palm reader traces a line on Trump's unusually short thumb, as he points out, indicating a lack of higher cognitive ability.

It's worth stressing that there's no fresh news revealed here: All this material was already in the public domain, and the Russian press and public don't necessarily know any more about the extent of their government's tactics to shape the election than we in the West do. They're just less shocked by it.

Explanatory title cards are sporadically deployed to fill in background or explain who key figures are, such as news anchor/executive and Russia's answer to Sean Hannity, Dmitry Kiselyov, or sinister Bond villainess-in-training Margarita Simonyan, the head of international cable network RT. But outside these occasional bursts of onscreen text as well as unnecessary, quasi-academic "chapter" headings, Pozdorovkin lets the footage effectively speak for itself or at least through juxtaposition, so that a rough narrative shape starts to emerge.

The aforementioned framing device focuses on Hillary Clinton's 1997 day trip during a state visit when she was still First Lady to see the mummified corpse of a Siberian "princess" that archeologists had recently uncovered. According to one Russian conspiracy theory, this encounter may have cursed Clinton, leading to the spasms, fainting fits and "signs of dementia" that she supposedly demonstrated many years later when she was on the 2016 campaign trail. Regardless of her state of health, it's clear that Russian media, in line with Putin, considered her policies threatening and ran her down relentlessly through its various channels.

Trump isn't even mentioned or seen onscreen until about 15 or 20 minutes into the doc, and pretty much right off the bat he's seen as a figure of fun, a flunky for Putin, but at least welcome proof according to one YouTuber that "a women can never be made president." Elsewhere, tow-headed Slavic kids are seen celebrating his victory over Clinton, while various sweaty men with poor camerawork skills record themselves drinking vodka toasts to him or performing self-penned folky tributes on accordions and guitars. The best song by some distance, possibly one composed with more irony than Pozdorovkin would allow, is a tribute to the troll farms of St. Petersburg.

It's a tough call which is more horrifying, these amateur paeans to the man who lost the popular vote but still won the race, or the nakedly, unabashedly partisan proclamations and misinformation from the state media. Either way, without taking any particular stand on whether the Russians decisively swung the result of the 2016 election or just nudged it along, the film makes it clear just how insidious, relentless and brazen their propaganda effort was, seeding memes that metastasized virulently throughout the world.

[snip][end]


Well, I learned something from this.

When members and supporters of the current ruling party in Russia put out their propaganda and nutter conspiracy theories through their partisan media outlets we call that state sponsored media and propaganda.

However when members and supporters of our current ruling party put out propaganda and nutter conspiracy theories through their conservative partisan media outlets we call that Fox and Friends.

I wonder if when they see something from Fox and Friends if they view it as being our state sponsored media and propaganda. Or back when Obama was president if they viewed MSNBC as our state sponsored media and propaganda outlet.

Instead of seeing this as a topic all about what they're doing, I'm seeing this contrasting view to be more about what we're doing here. I'm more interested in what we're doing than what they're doing because it is closer to home.


I watch a lot of Russian TV. It reminds me of our TV back in the 60's and 70's. The interest I do have for Russia is in seeing the people there. Seeing how they are the same, and how they are different than us. Seeing how they are adapting to the changes they are going through.

I do think the specific insights about the people of Russia one can get from this film are limited. It's a good example of an ecological fallacy.
Of drawing inference about the nature of individuals deduced from inference drawn for the group to which those individuals belong.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:39 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:10 pm
Posts: 17166
Location: The blue parts of the map
There is destruction and there is destruction. Yes, in a military op, "target destroyed" obviously means that something's physically not there any more. With today's firepower, it is generally replaced by smoking holes in the ground.

There comes a point, though, where it becomes necessary for various reasons to avoid that kind of war by getting the target to destroy itself (at least as a threat) by less photogenic means which can include subversion. If one still needs a war to hang their conceptual hat on, then psywar, information war, cyber war, or cold war come to mind. We do seem to have all of these going on. It's Cold War II, and we're losing.

_________________
We used to hang our traitors. Now we elect them to lead us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Our New President
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:02 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 11386
Location: Sunny South Florida

I do think the specific insights about the people of Russia one can get from this film are limited. It's a good example of an ecological fallacy.


I don't know if it is really about the Russian people. He doesn't interview any. It's not that kind of documentary.

As it is mostly made out of found footage from the Russian media, I think it tells us about that subject.

As always, it comes down to how it was obtained, sampled, and sourced. The producer is Russian American, so he's at least a quasi-native ethnographer, knows the language, and has been transparent about his methodology of how the source clips were obtained.

Thus, the viewer, I guess, needs to read about it, and decide.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group