FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

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JoeMemphis

Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:05 am But, like so many other corporations, they still forced employees to sign it. And low-wage workers HAVE been sued. This company sued a janitor for taking another job.

Now, wouldn't this be chilling to the janitor, who obviously wouldn't have the financial wherewithal to pay for legal counsel? Yes or no, Joe?
Suing a janitor is stupid and I am sure there are legal firms out there who would take the case and counter sue for damages. But bottomline, you don’t ban an entire class of contract because some defendant abuses the law. You sort it out in court or you pass restrictive legislation. Legislation. You remember. The democratic process. You talk about totalitarianism and then all you seek to do is have the executive branch rule by decree.
gounion
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Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:30 am Suing a janitor is stupid and I am sure there are legal firms out there who would take the case and counter sue for damages. But bottomline, you don’t ban an entire class of contract because some defendant abuses the law. You sort it out in court or you pass restrictive legislation. Legislation. You remember. The democratic process. You talk about totalitarianism and then all you seek to do is have the executive branch rule by decree.
You keep having to piss backwards. You said a company would never do so, and I found a company that did.

No, it's the corporations that want to rule by decree. I guess you'd be making the same argument against the government when the slaves were freed, wouldn't you? Because that's the argument you are making here.
JoeMemphis

Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:34 am You keep having to piss backwards. You said a company would never do so, and I found a company that did.

No, it's the corporations that want to rule by decree. I guess you'd be making the same argument against the government when the slaves were freed, wouldn't you? Because that's the argument you are making here.
I don’t control what other people do. I did say it would be laughed out of court. I did say you couldn’t prove actual damages. I did say it would be stupid.

So if you want a ban, then get the voters in a state to pass legislation to support a ban. Most states allow non competes and restrict their use to protect intellectual property and trade secrets. I have no problem with such restrictions. It’s been that way for as long as I recall.

You want to change it then you get together with folks who think like you and call your legislators and make it happen. That’s democracy.
gounion
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Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:40 am I don’t control what other people do. I did say it would be laughed out of court. I did say you couldn’t prove actual damages. I did say it would be stupid.

So if you want a ban, then get the voters in a state to pass legislation to support a ban. Most states allow non competes and restrict their use to protect intellectual property and trade secrets. I have no problem with such restrictions. It’s been that way for as long as I recall.

You want to change it then you get together with folks who think like you and call your legislators and make it happen. That’s democracy.
No you said I couldn’t find an example. And in for the freedom of a worker to quit. There was a guy who was head cook or whatever for a very popular Italian restaurant in my hometown back in the seventies who basically built their whole menu, but the owner would pay him a decent wage and treated him like crap. So he quit and opened a competing restaurant. Of course you would be against that.
JoeMemphis

Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:07 am No you said I couldn’t find an example. And in for the freedom of a worker to quit. There was a guy who was head cook or whatever for a very popular Italian restaurant in my hometown back in the seventies who basically built their whole menu, but the owner would pay him a decent wage and treated him like crap. So he quit and opened a competing restaurant. Of course you would be against that.
And you still haven’t provided an example of a case where JJ actually filed suit against a sandwich guy.

As a CPA, I do not use or share information about my employers or clients. It’s unethical. I have signed numerous NDA’s, non compete, non solicitation agreements over the years. I understand the information I see as part of my job could be used to harm my client/employer if used by someone less ethical. So I understand the need for such agreements. However, for many employees, the agreements aren’t necessary as those employees aren’t exposed to privaledged information or trade secrets. Still many employers require all employees to sign such agreements just in case. That doesn’t mean they plan to sue the hourly guy who takes a similar job down the street. If they did they would have to prove actual damages which would be hard to do against Walt the janitor.

I don’t advocate abusive behavior against an innocent hourly employee. I also don’t think it’s ethical to use confidential or privileged information as a weapon against a former employer.
gounion
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Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:36 pm And you still haven’t provided an example of a case where JJ actually filed suit against a sandwich guy.
I found it about equivalent jobs. But you can't rebut me, so you keep trying other shit. You said no other states have done like California, and I made you look like the fool you are.
As a CPA, I do not use or share information about my employers or clients. It’s unethical. I have signed numerous NDA’s, non compete, non solicitation agreements over the years. I understand the information I see as part of my job could be used to harm my client/employer if used by someone less ethical. So I understand the need for such agreements. However, for many employees, the agreements aren’t necessary as those employees aren’t exposed to privaledged information or trade secrets. Still many employers require all employees to sign such agreements just in case. That doesn’t mean they plan to sue the hourly guy who takes a similar job down the street. If they did they would have to prove actual damages which would be hard to do against Walt the janitor.
So you are saying that a CPA who wanted to start his own firm, couldn't do it in the same area, right? And if a firm wanted to switch to you, they couldn't right?

Why? Give me a good reason. Sounds like restraint of trade to me.

Oh, and it's spelled privileged, dumbass. Since you went after me for spelling, you'd think with your college education you'd be able to spell, but we see differently. I'm actually surprised an employer would let you see privileged information if you couldn't even spell it.
I don’t advocate abusive behavior against an innocent hourly employee. I also don’t think it’s ethical to use confidential or privileged information as a weapon against a former employer.
There's a difference between confidential info and non compete clauses.

But I guess you aren't smart enough to understand that. From a good op/ed on the issue:
That said, there is absolutely no question that constraining ordinary Americans, from construction workers to nurses to hairstylists to software engineers to journalists, from starting their own businesses or switching jobs within their industry for six months or a year or two deprives them of a core economic right to capitalize on their experience and skills and pursue better opportunities. And that is precisely what noncompetes, which affect an estimated 30 million American employees laboring for businesses of all sizes, do. Workers without the ability to switch employers or set up a shingle in their field of choice is profoundly disempowered.

Nor are noncompetes aimed merely at those in the upper echelons, in whom companies have arguably invested the most and who presumably have been trusted with top-tier trade secrets. Research shows that large shares of low-wage workers are frequently being barred from job-hopping. Plenty of those made to sign noncompetes lack college degrees or even high-school diplomas.

Lots of Republicans are railing against the FTC for supposedly meddling in the free market, but defenders of the perverse tool are the ones far guiltier of doing that by setting back competition, innovation and dynamism.

All the members of Congress blasting the proposed rule on the merits should stop and think about the staffers they hired from the offices of fellow elected officials and all the strategists they poached from campaign rivals. The world of politics couldn’t function with strict noncompetes; why should the American economy at large?
So tell me Joe why are you against the ability of someone to start their own business? Why are you against free enterprise?
gounion
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Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by gounion »

You know, it's funny. I worked for twenty years in the aircraft industry. Because of layoffs, I moved around a bit. I worked for four major companies, taking my skills with me. I worked with many proprietary projects. These companies didn't use non compete contracts for any workers. As a matter of fact, there was a lot of hiring across companies all the time.

Plus, these companies would often hire skilled workers, including engineers, toolmakers and jig-and-fixture workers and assemblers on a short-term contract basis at a high rate of pay, and many skilled workers did just that, jumping from one company to the next, including many defense firms. Many would require a security clearance, which I had in those years (it wasn't a really high one, just a basic clearance).

So if these companies, which were the industry world leader in aerospace tech didn't require non-competes to protect their secrets, I don't really think many companies actually need them.
JoeMemphis

Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:46 pm I found it about equivalent jobs. But you can't rebut me, so you keep trying other shit. You said no other states have done like California, and I made you look like the fool you are.

So you are saying that a CPA who wanted to start his own firm, couldn't do it in the same area, right? And if a firm wanted to switch to you, they couldn't right?

Why? Give me a good reason. Sounds like restraint of trade to me.

Oh, and it's spelled privileged, dumbass. Since you went after me for spelling, you'd think with your college education you'd be able to spell, but we see differently. I'm actually surprised an employer would let you see privileged information if you couldn't even spell it.

There's a difference between confidential info and non compete clauses.

But I guess you aren't smart enough to understand that. From a good op/ed on the issue:



So tell me Joe why are you against the ability of someone to start their own business? Why are you against free enterprise?
Once again, I asked for a JJ case since that was your example. You mentioned it explicitly.

I asked why other states haven’t done a complete ban like CA and you provided a link which did not support your point of view. Most states restrict non competes to one extent or the other but also do provide for exceptions. A practice I support.

I don’t take client information nor do I take information from one employer and then use it against them in a competing business. I am a consultant and that would be unethical. I could lose my license to practice. I am a sole proprietor. I have had partners before but I wouldn’t solicit any of their clients. Not how I do business. If one of their clients approached me, depending on the circumstances, I may or may not take the engagement. If I had a prior agreement with my former partner, I would certainly honor that commitment. Not a restraint of trade. Just keeping my word once it is given. I get that doesn’t make sense to you.

I don’t expect an hourly employee to live by the same standard. Most don’t have access to the same type of information and do not have to ability to materially affect the business. As I mentioned earlier, in a civil case you have to show actual damages. Hard to prove against Walt the Janitor or GoU the sandwich maker.
gounion
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Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:23 pm Once again, I asked for a JJ case since that was your example. You mentioned it explicitly.

I asked why other states haven’t done a complete ban like CA and you provided a link which did not support your point of view. Most states restrict non competes to one extent or the other but also do provide for exceptions. A practice I support.

I don’t take client information nor do I take information from one employer and then use it against them in a competing business. I am a consultant and that would be unethical. I could lose my license to practice. I am a sole proprietor. I have had partners before but I wouldn’t solicit any of their clients. Not how I do business. If one of their clients approached me, depending on the circumstances, I may or may not take the engagement. If I had a prior agreement with my former partner, I would certainly honor that commitment. Not a restraint of trade. Just keeping my word once it is given. I get that doesn’t make sense to you.

I don’t expect an hourly employee to live by the same standard. Most don’t have access to the same type of information and do not have to ability to materially affect the business. As I mentioned earlier, in a civil case you have to show actual damages. Hard to prove against Walt the Janitor or GoU the sandwich maker.
As usual, you make yourself out to be a fool, and evade my questions. Again, why shouldn't an Accountant be able to quit his firm to open a new one, and if a client wanted to change to them, why not?

I'm not talking about proprietary info, hell, it's accounting. Doesn't change much, unless you're Donald Trump's accountant.

So, if it's silly to do so with low-level employees, why do corporations do so and fight to keep the right to do so?

You really haven't made any sort of case to allow non competes in any case. Contracts against using proprietary info take care of that just fine.
JoeMemphis

Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:36 pm As usual, you make yourself out to be a fool, and evade my questions. Again, why shouldn't an Accountant be able to quit his firm to open a new one, and if a client wanted to change to them, why not?

I'm not talking about proprietary info, hell, it's accounting. Doesn't change much, unless you're Donald Trump's accountant.

So, if it's silly to do so with low-level employees, why do corporations do so and fight to keep the right to do so?

You really haven't made any sort of case to allow non competes in any case. Contracts against using proprietary info take care of that just fine.
Asked and answered. As far as accounting is concerned. If I signed an agreement not to compete then I would honor that agreement. Maybe it’s not important to you, but I think honoring you agreements is good business. That is if your word means anything to you. You decide.

As far as non competes in general are concerned, I personally do not see a need for them for every employee. However, as I have stated previously, certain employees do have access to intellectual property or trade secrets and I understand the need for businesses to mitigate that risk.

You don’t need to agree. States will regulate as they see fit.
gounion
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Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:08 pm Asked and answered. As far as accounting is concerned. If I signed an agreement not to compete then I would honor that agreement. Maybe it’s not important to you, but I think honoring you agreements is good business. That is if your word means anything to you. You decide.
No, you haven't answered. But you are saying if a Jimmy John's or Janitorial company has a non compete, those employees MUST abide by them.

Got it.
As far as non competes in general are concerned, I personally do not see a need for them for every employee. However, as I have stated previously, certain employees do have access to intellectual property or trade secrets and I understand the need for businesses to mitigate that risk.
In the cases you've just said, for intellectual property or trade secrets, contracts covering those issues can be made with non competes.
You don’t need to agree. States will regulate as they see fit.
The government needs to regulate, because corporations obviously can't regulate themselves.

The government should make laws and regulations that supports individual rights. In a free country, an individual should be able to quit and find another employer or start their own business, in the field they have experience in.

But you don't give a shit for human rights.
JoeMemphis

Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:16 pm No, you haven't answered. But you are saying if a Jimmy John's or Janitorial company has a non compete, those employees MUST abide by them.

Got it.

In the cases you've just said, for intellectual property or trade secrets, contracts covering those issues can be made with non competes.
The government needs to regulate, because corporations obviously can't regulate themselves.

The government should make laws and regulations that supports individual rights. In a free country, an individual should be able to quit and find another employer or start their own business, in the field they have experience in.

But you don't give a shit for human rights.
Not what I said at all.

As your own posts have demonstrated, state governments do regulate these agreements. And in the case of JJ, the agreements were tossed in state courts.

So stop putting words in my mouth and learn to read and then present your point of view. You suck at presenting mine.
gounion
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Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:37 pm Not what I said at all.

As your own posts have demonstrated, state governments do regulate these agreements. And in the case of JJ, the agreements were tossed in state courts.

So stop putting words in my mouth and learn to read and then present your point of view. You suck at presenting mine.
Since you can protect intellectual property and trade secrets by other means, there are no reasons for non compete contracts. It’s that simple.

Again, I stand for the rights of individuals to quit a job they don’t find satisfactory and to use their skills to start a competing business or to take employ elsewhere. That’s a simple human right in a free society.

But not to you!
JoeMemphis

Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:42 pm Since you can protect intellectual property and trade secrets by other means, there are no reasons for non compete contracts. It’s that simple.

Again, I stand for the rights of individuals to quit a job they don’t find satisfactory and to use their skills to start a competing business or to take employ elsewhere. That’s a simple human right in a free society.

But not to you!
You are free to sell you point of view to your state legislature. Good Luck with that.
gounion
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Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:58 pm You are free to sell you point of view to your state legislature. Good Luck with that.
And you’re free to side against the freedom of the American workers.
JoeMemphis

Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:24 pm And you’re free to side against the freedom of the American workers.
Yeah right. :roll: :roll: :roll:

You are such the hero. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Number6
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Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by Number6 »

Conservatives believe in the "free market" so they should be supporting a ban on non-compete clauses because supporting non-compete clauses means not supporting the "free market."
When you vote left, you vote right.
gounion
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Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:28 pm Yeah right. :roll: :roll: :roll:

You are such the hero. :lol: :lol: :lol:
I’m proud of what I stand for. You aren’t proud of anything, you run away from the people YOU vote for. You don’t stand for anything except for corporations getting rich.
Glennfs
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Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:30 pm I’m proud of what I stand for. You aren’t proud of anything, you run away from the people YOU vote for. You don’t stand for anything except for corporations getting rich.
No conservatives know they do not have to support 100pct of what conservatives propose.

As opposed to the looney left that believes any criticism of Biden is support of trump and any criticism of a Democrat is support for conservatives
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
gounion
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Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:00 pm No conservatives know they do not have to support 100pct of what conservatives propose.

As opposed to the looney left that believes any criticism of Biden is support of trump and any criticism of a Democrat is support for conservatives
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Wow you’ve got nothing.

Should a person be able to quit a job and get another job in their same line or work, or better yet, start their own business?

What if the last trucking company you were an employee of told you that you couldn’t buy your own truck and start your own business?

Answer: You’d scream bloody hell.
JoeMemphis

Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:30 pm I’m proud of what I stand for. You aren’t proud of anything, you run away from the people YOU vote for. You don’t stand for anything except for corporations getting rich.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Blah blah blah. Heard all this self serving braggadocio before from you. It’s all self serving bullshit. I don’t buy it for a second.
gounion
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Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:21 pm Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Blah blah blah. Heard all this self serving braggadocio before from you. It’s all self serving bullshit. I don’t buy it for a second.
You should know about self-serving bullshit. You're the one who says you vote for whoever can serve your self-interest. That's all you care about.
JoeMemphis

Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:20 am You should know about self-serving bullshit. You're the one who says you vote for whoever can serve your self-interest. That's all you care about.
And you don’t. :roll: :roll: :roll:

But who cares. You can spend all the time and bandwidth you want tooting your own horn and that and 50 cents won’t buy you a cup of coffee at the corner gas station. But you go right ahead. We all have nothing better to do than to listen to you talk about how great you think you are. :lol: :lol: :lol:
gounion
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Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:00 am And you don’t. :roll: :roll: :roll:

But who cares. You can spend all the time and bandwidth you want tooting your own horn and that and 50 cents won’t buy you a cup of coffee at the corner gas station. But you go right ahead. We all have nothing better to do than to listen to you talk about how great you think you are. :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'm better than the anti-American scum you vote for.
JoeMemphis

Re: FTC proposes ban on non-compete clauses

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:10 am I'm better than the anti-American scum you vote for.
Who gives a shit what you think of yourself?
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