1619 Project Book

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gounion
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1619 Project Book

Post by gounion »

The project that made conservative heads explode everywhere. The big New York Times multimedia project turned into a book. And it's out.
#1 NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLER • A dramatic expansion of a groundbreaking work of journalism, The 1619 Project: A New Origin Story offers a profoundly revealing vision of the American past and present.

NAMED ONE OF THE BEST BOOKS OF THE YEAR BY The Washington Post • NPR • Marie Claire


In late August 1619, a ship arrived in the British colony of Virginia bearing a cargo of twenty to thirty enslaved people from Africa. Their arrival led to the barbaric and unprecedented system of American chattel slavery that would last for the next 250 years. This is sometimes referred to as the country’s original sin, but it is more than that: It is the source of so much that still defines the United States.

The New York Times Magazine’s award-winning “1619 Project” issue reframed our understanding of American history by placing slavery and its continuing legacy at the center of our national narrative. This new book substantially expands on that work, weaving together eighteen essays that explore the legacy of slavery in present-day America with thirty-six poems and works of fiction that illuminate key moments of oppression, struggle, and resistance. The essays show how the inheritance of 1619 reaches into every part of contemporary American society, from politics, music, diet, traffic, and citizenship to capitalism, religion, and our democracy itself.

This is a book that speaks directly to our current moment, contextualizing the systems of race and caste within which we operate today. It reveals long-glossed-over truths around our nation’s founding and construction—and the way that the legacy of slavery did not end with emancipation, but continues to shape contemporary American life.

Featuring contributions from: Leslie Alexander • Michelle Alexander • Carol Anderson • Joshua Bennett • Reginald Dwayne Betts • Jamelle Bouie • Anthea Butler • Matthew Desmond • Rita Dove • Camille T. Dungy • Cornelius Eady • Eve L. Ewing • Nikky Finney • Vievee Francis • Yaa Gyasi • Forrest Hamer • Terrance Hayes • Kimberly Annece Henderson • Jeneen Interlandi • Honorée Fanonne Jeffers • Barry Jenkins • Tyehimba Jess • Martha S. Jones • Robert Jones, Jr. • A. Van Jordan • Ibram X. Kendi • Eddie Kendricks • Yusef Komunyakaa • Kevin M. Kruse • Kiese Laymon • Trymaine Lee • Jasmine Mans • Terry McMillan • Tiya Miles • Wesley Morris • Khalil Gibran Muhammad • Lynn Nottage • ZZ Packer • Gregory Pardlo • Darryl Pinckney • Claudia Rankine • Jason Reynolds • Dorothy Roberts • Sonia Sanchez • Tim Seibles • Evie Shockley • Clint Smith • Danez Smith • Patricia Smith • Tracy K. Smith • Bryan Stevenson • Nafissa Thompson-Spires • Natasha Trethewey • Linda Villarosa • Jesmyn Ward
I just started it last night, with the audio by Audible.com. Fascinating.

I would challenge everyone on the board to get it in some fashion or another - like me, the audio, or the hardcover or Kindle edition.

And we can then discuss it. I would further challenge our conservatives - Ted, Joe, Glenn and GreenGrass - to do so. Joe and Glenn have denounced CRT without having a clue what it's really about. Are you scared of the truth, guys?

And Ted, since you're on a school board, I would think you should read it most of all.

Anyone up to it?
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carmenjonze
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

gounion wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:41 am The project that made conservative heads explode everywhere. The big New York Times multimedia project turned into a book. And it's out.



I just started it last night, with the audio by Audible.com. Fascinating.

I would challenge everyone on the board to get it in some fashion or another - like me, the audio, or the hardcover or Kindle edition.

And we can then discuss it. I would further challenge our conservatives - Ted, Joe, Glenn and GreenGrass - to do so. Joe and Glenn have denounced CRT without having a clue what it's really about. Are you scared of the truth, guys?

And Ted, since you're on a school board, I would think you should read it most of all.

Anyone up to it?
I haven’t gotten it yet, but I eventually will.

As far as the cons around here, eh, im not up to it, f them. They’re ineducable by choice, and trying to have rational conversations with them about 1619, about CRT, about anything having to do with race in the US, is a colossal waste of time. All they’re capable of is white-conservative victimology and in Sam Lefthand’s specific case, misogynoir trolling.

There’s is another aspect of 1619 and CRT that’s often impossible to talk about in the current political environment, and that is left and liberal critiques of these projects. They exist and those conversations are quite robust. As I’ve said, I have my own criticisms of 1619, and know a couple people who are consultants to the project. But them, you can actually have a reasoned conversation with, because they’re grown adults, unlike these conservative men around here.
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rainwater
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by rainwater »

how does merica separate these huge human issues. there is slavery and there is the native extinction attempts both done
by the newly arrived euros in process of stealing the continent.

somewhere between 10million and 80million natives were wiped out in about 100 yrs, along with the sick demented
slaughter of 100million bison left to rot on the ground in order to starve the natives.
Who are these..flag-sucking halfwits fleeced fooled by stupid little rich kids They speak for all that is cruel stupid They are racists hate mongers I piss down the throats of these Nazis Im too old to worry whether they like it. Fuck them.
HST.
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carmenjonze
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

rainwater wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:35 am how does merica separate these huge human issues. there is slavery and there is the native extinction attempts both done
by the newly arrived euros in process of stealing the continent.

somewhere between 10million and 80million natives were wiped out in about 100 yrs, along with the sick demented
slaughter of 100million bison left to rot on the ground in order to starve the natives.
The only time you trot out Native issues is when someone brings up slavery or other African-American matters.

Have you noticed that? i also must wonder if you've even seen 1619, at all.

There are really only two people at RFL who discuss Native American history or current issues with any substance, and that’s me and ProfX. Your post is a reactionary form of whattabbouttery that disrespects both African-American and Native-Americn legacies, which, by the way, are deeply intertwined. Funny, how we never hear anything from you about that.
Last edited by carmenjonze on Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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carmenjonze
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

QED why it’s impossible in this current environment to have a rational conversation about either 1619 or CRT or anything related to these topics. :problem:
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carmenjonze
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

When I say there are robust conversations on the left about CRT and 1619, I'm not including that b.s. that the World Socialist Web Site keeps churning out about 1619.

It was pretty funny on the old board to watch rightwingers like that sock greengrass suddenly become an avid World Socialist Web Site reader. :lol:

But I mention this because outside of the predictable white-conservative freakouts about 1619, the oft-cited materials at the WSWS are usually what comes to mind regarding criticisms of the project. In case anyone is interested, they've launched their latest one to coincide with the release of the book.

Lol the World Socialist Web Site. Honestly.

I'm not linking any of it because I think WSWS Trotskyism is ridiculous on its face, and they're not helping themselves with what really amounts to clickbait for Rightie.
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gounion
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by gounion »

carmenjonze wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:32 amThere’s is another aspect of 1619 and CRT that’s often impossible to talk about in the current political environment, and that is left and liberal critiques of these projects. They exist and those conversations are quite robust. As I’ve said, I have my own criticisms of 1619, and know a couple people who are consultants to the project. But them, you can actually have a reasoned conversation with, because they’re grown adults, unlike these conservative men around here.
Interestingly, the author of the overall book addressed this at the beginning of the book, and said they had deleted a few things, added a few things, and tried to take the honest feedback from the left into account.

That's something you'll ONLY see from the left.

The whole thing is to make people think, and to see things from another point of view not your own. This country has been pretty great to me - I'm a white guy and therefore part of the entire power structure of our nation. Comparatively, I've had everything handed to me. Sure, I've worked hard to get to where I got, but I don't pretend I was a rugged individualist who did it all on merit. NO ONE gets ahead on their own. Life is a team effort, and I realize that others didn't have the easy road I did because of my gender and skin color.

As a young man in grade school, I saw To Kill a Mockingbird and read Black Like Me, and realized our society has major problems, problems which have only partially gotten better. But the backlash is in full swing, and the right is attempting to take us back over 100 years.

Yes, if any of our conservatives DO read the book, they'll complain about the goddamned "uppity blacks" trying to make them feel guilty.

It's NOT about guilt. I don't feel guilty, but I DO want justice to be done, and I work toward a society where everyone gets a fair break.
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

gounion wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:45 pm Interestingly, the author of the overall book addressed this at the beginning of the book, and said they had deleted a few things, added a few things, and tried to take the honest feedback from the left into account.

That's something you'll ONLY see from the left.
True. And that's one of the things that I see often discussed -- some of the backtracking that 1619 did. But yes, this is cast as some kind of weakness whereas it's really accountability and self-correction imo.

No, we will never see any type of accountability or self-correction from Rightie.
The whole thing is to make people think, and to see things from another point of view not your own. This country has been pretty great to me - I'm a white guy and therefore part of the entire power structure of our nation. Comparatively, I've had everything handed to me. Sure, I've worked hard to get to where I got, but I don't pretend I was a rugged individualist who did it all on merit. NO ONE gets ahead on their own. Life is a team effort, and I realize that others didn't have the easy road I did because of my gender and skin color.

As a young man in grade school, I saw To Kill a Mockingbird and read Black Like Me, and realized our society has major problems, problems which have only partially gotten better. But the backlash is in full swing, and the right is attempting to take us back over 100 years.

Yes, if any of our conservatives DO read the book, they'll complain about the goddamned "uppity blacks" trying to make them feel guilty.
Yeah that's why, for me, the only thing they're good for is posting old White Citizens Council wares that said the same thing 50-60 years ago that they say today. White conservatives have not changed their rhetoric one iota since that time, except to co-opt and distort a couple key phrases from MLK that they don't even believe themselves, and claim he was a Republican.
It's NOT about guilt. I don't feel guilty, but I DO want justice to be done, and I work toward a society where everyone gets a fair break.
Nor should you, because you didn't do it. White supremacism may affect you positively, but you're working to dismantle these conditions. That's very threatening to conservative whites, but you're not alone, either.
Last edited by carmenjonze on Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gounion
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by gounion »

Yep the idea that I’m trying to dismantle the unfair parts of our system is why Glenn calls me a racist and says I hate America.

Maybe it’s because the white power structure is what he loves about America.
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

gounion wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:05 pm Yep the idea that I’m trying to dismantle the unfair parts of our system is why Glenn calls me a racist and says I hate America.

Maybe it’s because the white power structure is what he loves about America.
The way I see it, whites-rule/whites-first is indeed synonymous with "America," to conservative whites.

So yes, anything that smacks down whites-rule is anti-American. And they take it deadly personally, because they're invested in this idea of whites-rule = America with their entire being.

Enter commiebaiting and socialism-baiting, and a ton of antisemitism that comes with it. It's why they call 1619 and CRT "cultural Marxism," Pol Pot, socialism, government overreach, etc. EVERYTHING that criticizes whites-rule/whites-first is an existential threat.

Same old paranoid, white-racist MO, different millennium.
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Re: 1619 Project Book

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carmenjonze wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:11 pm The way I see it, whites-rule/whites-first is indeed synonymous with "America," to conservative whites.

So yes, anything that smacks down whites-rule is anti-American. And they take it deadly personally, because they're invested in this idea of whites-rule = America with their entire being.

Enter commiebaiting and socialism-baiting, and a ton of antisemitism that comes with it. It's why they call 1619 and CRT "cultural Marxism," Pol Pot, socialism, government overreach, etc. EVERYTHING that criticizes whites-rule/whites-first is an existential threat.

Same old paranoid, white-racist MO, different millennium.
Yes, same old.

His followers and enablers want us GONE, that is the difference, not that they havent always, but when you KNOW over 50 million fellow citizens will GLADLY go along with rump if he can end our lives or imprison us or whatever, so we dont vote against him, that is the difference.
I sigh in your general direction.
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Re: 1619 Project Book

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So, the problem I see is in righties mind, these two things are mistakenly conjoined, and that's a problem.

CRT is not something a K-12 student will encounter. In fact, most college undergraduates. MOST people won't run into it until and unless they go to law school, where they will run into it, along with Critical Legal Studies, which it is an outgrowth of.

1619 Project is something that was designed as a history unit/curriculum for K-12 students learning history. Now that IS intended for K-12 education. But it shouldn't be treated interchangeably.

The creator won a Pulitzer Prize for her work. Now yes, that is an award for journalistic excellence, not a strictly academic one, but hopefully we are still in a world where that award also means your project/work shows great academic/historic integrity and accuracy. Those things used to matter in journalism, hopefully in good journalism they still should.

As Carmen has pointed out, 1619 Project has too faced criticism - even by other African-American historians. Is it without flaw? What academic undertaking is? However, whatever "World Socialists" might think, the general consensus of historians is it might be an imperfect, but otherwise very good, curriculum for focusing on aspects of American history, for K-12 students. The fine details can be explored in higher education.

There are no academic reasons I can see for a K-12 history program not utilizing it. Political ones, maybe. Certain knee-jerk forces will have their tiki torches out at school board meetings just hearing that their kid might be learning it. But of course, those are not the same thing.
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Re: 1619 Project Book

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carmenjonze wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:26 pm I'm not linking any of it because I think WSWS Trotskyism is ridiculous on its face, and they're not helping themselves with what really amounts to clickbait for Rightie.
As we've discussed, some of these RCP/Trotskyite idiots seem to think homosexuality is a "disorder of capitalism". :roll:

The World Socialists seem to be stuck in a kind of reductionist Marxism from 1901 or so where race can be reduced to class and class is all we should talk about, instead of the reality that they in curious and shifting ways constantly keep intersecting and overlapping in American history.

Yeah, really dumb ideas can be found on our side of the horseshoe, also.

It's about up there with anti-trans people calling themselves "radical" left-feminists.
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

ProfX wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:36 pm As we've discussed, some of these RCP/Trotskyite idiots seem to think homosexuality is a "disorder of capitalism". :roll:
"Bourgeois decadence" :problem:
Yeah, really dumb ideas can be found on our side of the horseshoe, also.

It's about up there with anti-trans people calling themselves "radical" left-feminists.
Ol' Leftie antigays and current TERFs are their own horseshoe because they're the same generation, and the same people.

They share a spectrum with Tulsi Gabbard so-called radicals and Committee for the Defense of the Revolution, pro-PRC tankies. It's not a coincidence that all of the above are also antiLGBTQ as hell.
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

I would only add that in this country, it's only the white-is-right rightwing versions of anti-trans and anti-gay that have ever been on the books.

Not that these other horseshoes like Tulsi, TERFs, WSWS, etc., are any better, or much different. They're also overwhelmingly white-identified and get extremely offended if you bring up any other topic besides class. :problem:

They've just never been in power here, ever. White-is-right rightie has, and has made all of the laws on the subject.
Last edited by carmenjonze on Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gounion
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by gounion »

ProfX wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:36 pm As we've discussed, some of these RCP/Trotskyite idiots seem to think homosexuality is a "disorder of capitalism". :roll:

The World Socialists seem to be stuck in a kind of reductionist Marxism from 1901 or so where race can be reduced to class and class is all we should talk about, instead of the reality that they in curious and shifting ways constantly keep intersecting and overlapping in American history.

Yeah, really dumb ideas can be found on our side of the horseshoe, also.

It's about up there with anti-trans people calling themselves "radical" left-feminists.
The World Socialists HATE unions in the USA, because we are all capitalists and believe in working within the capitalist system.

But according to Glenn, we're all communists and socialists. I grew tired of him sending me stuff from their website, saying it proved I was a socialist.
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Re: 1619 Project Book

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carmenjonze wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:44 pm They share a spectrum with Tulsi Gabbard so-called radicals
Seems Tulsi recently said Youngkin's victory in Virginia was a "win for all Americans". Uh huh.

Also, that the Ahmaud Arbery verdict is, quote, "proof America is not a racist country". Didn't she also tweet something pro-Rittenhouse?

Is she still hanging out with all her BJP-Modi buddies from India?

For me, she was hanging off the fringes of the horseshoe, for a very long time. Radically stupid.
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by carmenjonze »

ProfX wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:55 pm Seems Tulsi recently said Youngkin's victory in Virginia was a "win for all Americans". Uh huh.

Also, that the Ahmaud Arbery verdict is, quote, "proof America is not a racist country". Didn't she also tweet something pro-Rittenhouse?

Is she still hanging out with all her BJP-Modi buddies from India?

For me, she was hanging off the fringes of the horseshoe, for a very long time. Radically stupid.
She is another con.
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:41 am The project that made conservative heads explode everywhere. The big New York Times multimedia project turned into a book. And it's out.



I just started it last night, with the audio by Audible.com. Fascinating.

I would challenge everyone on the board to get it in some fashion or another - like me, the audio, or the hardcover or Kindle edition.

And we can then discuss it. I would further challenge our conservatives - Ted, Joe, Glenn and GreenGrass - to do so. Joe and Glenn have denounced CRT without having a clue what it's really about. Are you scared of the truth, guys?

And Ted, since you're on a school board, I would think you should read it most of all.

Anyone up to it?
So you think that anyone whoo doesn't agree with you on a subject is somehow denouncing something? I've never denounced CRT. Why should I? According to the people on this board, it isn't being taught in K-12. According to people on this board, it is a college level elective and as I have previously stated, I have no problem with that.

Am I going to go out and become a subject matter expert on CRT to please other board members who could give a shit what I think of CRT? No. Quite frankly I am more interested in K-12 kids getting the knowledge and skills they will need to support themselves in the economy of the future. I see no point in debating something that is not being taught in public schools.

But I haven't denounced CRT. That is a misrepresentation. I do support parents taking an active role in the education of their children and having a say in what is taught in public schools. These are their kids. They are not wards of the state. It is their tax dollars funding the school systems.
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:06 pm So you think that anyone whoo doesn't agree with you on a subject is somehow denouncing something? I've never denounced CRT. Why should I? According to the people on this board, it isn't being taught in K-12. According to people on this board, it is a college level elective and as I have previously stated, I have no problem with that.

Am I going to go out and become a subject matter expert on CRT to please other board members who could give a shit what I think of CRT? No. Quite frankly I am more interested in K-12 kids getting the knowledge and skills they will need to support themselves in the economy of the future. I see no point in debating something that is not being taught in public schools.

But I haven't denounced CRT. That is a misrepresentation. I do support parents taking an active role in the education of their children and having a say in what is taught in public schools. These are their kids. They are not wards of the state. It is their tax dollars funding the school systems.
Should children be taught US history, which includes things like what happened to Ruby Bridges?

Of course, you're going to say "who?" Ignorance of just damned near everything is who you are.

And you also show the view of conservatives on education. You think all education should be is job training, and nothing else matters. I'm not of that viewpoint. I believe in a "liberal education" which doesn't mean politics - it means you teach a student about the world we live in, the history, the art, and how to reason and think.

There's more to life than work.
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:11 pm Should children be taught US history, which includes things like what happened to Ruby Bridges?

Of course, you're going to say "who?" Ignorance of just damned near everything is who you are.

And you also show the view of conservatives on education. You think all education should be is job training, and nothing else matters. I'm not of that viewpoint. I believe in a "liberal education" which doesn't mean politics - it means you teach a student about the world we live in, the history, the art, and how to reason and think.

There's more to life than work.
I have no problem with students learning American history. The good, the bad, the ugly. Said that over and over and over. Reread that as many times as you need in order to understand it. What does that have to do with CRT. According to people on this board, it isn't being taught in k-12.

I have no problem with liberal arts being taught in K-12. Never have. Not every student is cut out to be an engineer. Not every student is cut out to be an artist or a writer. I think K-12 should be broad enough to give students an appreciation for all kinds of disciplines and allow them to pursue those things that interest them the most. But at the end of the day, the graduate needs to have the skill set to support themselves in life no matter what line of work they choose otherwise the education system has failed in its primary objective.
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:23 pm I have no problem with students learning American history. The good, the bad, the ugly. Said that over and over and over. Reread that as many times as you need in order to understand it. What does that have to do with CRT. According to people on this board, it isn't being taught in k-12. :x :x

I have no problem with liberal arts being taught in K-12. Never have. Not every student is cut out to be an engineer. Not every student is cut out to be an artist or a writer. I think K-12 should be broad enough to give students an appreciation for all kinds of disciplines and allow them to pursue those things that interest them the most. But at the end of the day, the graduate needs to have the skill set to support themselves in life no matter what line of work they choose otherwise the education system has failed in its primary objective.
Yeah, I didn’t think you ever heard of Ruby Bridges. :lol: :lol: :lol:

But if parents don’t want their children learning about the bad - the horrifying history of what whites did to blacks in the sixties, then teachers shouldn’t teach it, right?
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by ProfX »

I have no problem with vocational education. Take nothing I'm about to say as a condemnation of it. If you go to college to become the best AC repairman you can be, ... more power to you.

However, the purpose of a liberal arts education is not merely to acquire skills for a vocation. This is not some weird idea I hold. It was something argued by the famous philosopher of education John Dewey, the originator of the Dewey Decimal System most libraries STILL use for helping you locate books, even in the Internet age.

A liberal arts, higher education serves many other purposes. Dewey said it was primarily to give you the skills to be a good citizen and participate in a citizen-based democracy. I would also add, especially in my program and my university, to broaden your vistas and expose you to cultures, groups, and aspects of the world you might not have been aware of before arriving at university. Perhaps we could call that making you a Global Citizen. If we take a strict vocation-based view of education, we should chuck philosophy, and something people were arguing 2500 years ago.

I don't know if learning about the arguments between Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle will help land you a better job in the aircraft industry. But it CAN help you in doing something more profound: help you wonder about the "Great Questions" humans have been asking for a long time - which can include but not be limited to: why does the universe exist? what is our place in it? what is it that makes us human? and one you cannot avoid if you are interested in constructing the polis, the ideal city state: how do we organize an ideal society for humans to live in? Aka "Politics".

Why learn history? Well here's one reason: you can see the mistakes people and civilizations have made in the past, and I suspect that can help you prevent people from repeating them in the present. BTW, that is hardly the only reason, but one that is important.

This society cannot function without training people to be engineers, repairmen, or anything else. Please note, again, I'm not condemning vocational education. We maybe should even do more of it. But it is not the only thing a liberal arts education is FOR. I will assert it can train you in habits of better critical and other thinking, and this can help you in many vocations, ... or anything you want to do in life, including going on to teach others.
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:34 pm Yeah, I didn’t think you ever heard of Ruby Bridges. :lol: :lol: :lol:

But if parents don’t want their children learning about the bad - the horrifying history of what whites did to blacks in the sixties, then teachers shouldn’t teach it, right?
I think I addressed that in my previous post.
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Re: 1619 Project Book

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:49 pm I think I addressed that in my previous post.
No, you didn't. Not really. Do parents have the right to censor teaching history if they don't like the truth?
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