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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:24 pm 
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It's really fascinating how you do not seem to hear what people say.

Furthermore, when I listen to what you have to say, it sounds too much like the proverbial Negative Nelly.

I've heard exactly what you've said. You've made false accusations, haven't you? You say you got a "perception" from my posts. Yet you haven't put one iota of FACT forward.

NOW you say I'm a liberal. But earlier, you said I was "Republican lite". Can't have it both ways.

So now you're just filibustering. With more personal attacks. You've already had to back the fuck up with both jdogg and myself. You can't admit the obvious truth - you questions our liberal bona fides because we had real, fact-based criticisms of Bernie Sanders, and you couldn't deal with it, so you lashed out.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:31 pm 
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I've heard exactly what you've said. You've made false accusations, haven't you? You say you got a "perception" from my posts. Yet you haven't put one iota of FACT forward.

NOW you say I'm a liberal. But earlier, you said I was "Republican lite". Can't have it both ways.

So now you're just filibustering. With more personal attacks. You've already had to back the fuck up with both jdogg and myself. You can't admit the obvious truth - you questions our liberal bona fides because we had real, fact-based criticisms of Bernie Sanders, and you couldn't deal with it, so you lashed out.

I've been straight with you...and these are only my perceptions, which can obviously exist beyond whatever facts you wish to provide.


For me, as I've made reasonably clear elsewhere, Republican-lite and Blue Dog Democrat are more or less the same thing. Such political positions are still "liberal" by today's standards, but I tend to perceive that they are pushing into the realm of not being liberal.


YMMV, of course, but it would seem that I've made my position reasonably clear. If you wish to call it some sort of purity test, which it is not, then that is your choice.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:34 pm 
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I've been straight with you...and these are only my perceptions, which can obviously exist beyond whatever facts you wish to provide.


For me, as I've made reasonable clear elsewhere, Republican-lite and Blue Dog Democrat are more or less the same thing. Such political positions are still "liberal" by today's standards, but I tend to perceive that they are pushing into the realm of not being liberal.

YMMV, of course, but it would seem that I've made my position reasonably clear. If you wish to call it some sort of purity test, which it is not, then that is your choice.

And I continue to point out that your perception is not fact-based. You're basically just making it up. You can't come up with ONE post that shows I'm not liberal. Go ahead, make your case. Or, as an honest person would do, retract the accusation.

What you are doing is attacking those who don't toe your Bernie-centric line. It's dishonest.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:44 pm 
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And I continue to point out that your perception is not fact-based. You're basically just making it up. You can't come up with ONE post that shows I'm not liberal. Go ahead, make your case. Or, as an honest person would do, retract the accusation.

What you are doing is attacking those who don't toe your Bernie-centric line. It's dishonest.

As I've said previously, you quite obviously appear to be a liberal.


What I object to is the way in which you continually attack most anything to do with Bernie and keep suggesting that he's some sort of crook.


It's about as tiresome as this business with the Clinton computer server.


Just so totally ridiculous in how it entirely misses the point.


The reality is that Bernie will fade away. And the hope is that other folks will step in to continue what he, along with many others before him, have helped to foster.


You can see the writing on the wall, right?...Bernie will be lucky if he gets out with a semi-descent retirement package and you begrudge him even that much?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:14 pm 
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As I've said previously, you quite obviously appear to be a liberal.

What I object to is the way in which you continually attack most anything to do with Bernie and keep suggesting that he's some sort of crook.

It's about as tiresome as this business with the Clinton computer server.

Just so totally ridiculous in how it entirely misses the point.

The reality is that Bernie will fade away. And the hope is that other folks will step in to continue what he, along with many others before him, have helped to foster.

You can see the writing on the wall, right?...Bernie will be lucky if he gets out with a semi-descent retirement package and you begrudge him even that much?

So, you admit your attacks were based on the fact that you didn't like my fact-based criticisms of Bernie. No retraction, but it's a little more honest than I expected. So I guess you're saying that your accusations that I'm a "blue-dog dem" or "Republican-lite" are, as Ron Zigler used to say "no longer operative".

But you still refuse to retract them.

As I've pointed out, and you can check, I've always been a fan of Bernie. I was supportive of his run. Early on, he said he would only talk about issues, He refused to attack Hillary in any way.

Then he thought he had a shot at actually winning. He then threw ethics to the wind.

Also, he promised when he ran for President as a Democrat that he would STAY a Democrat. He lied. He's now again an Independent.

One of the problems with Bernie is he's NEVER tried to build the party. Never worked for like-minded candidates.

And, his crying poor while buying a fancy lake house is something that shows his hypocrisy.

Also, his supposed support for Canova, who only got one email from him. Where the hell is Bernie?

And, again, why the dark-money PAC, when the normal style PAC is far better for what Our Revolution is supposed to be about. Are we going to get transparency?

Here's what I think is happening. Bernie is done. About all he's going to do for Our Revolution is tweet. He may get a salary from it, we won't know, they aren't required to say who they pay. To make Our Revolution work would require Bernie to constantly travel and push the revolution, and stump for their candidates. Let's remember that he didn't do as promised for Canova in Florida. Why don't you explain that?

He's not going to be out on the road stumping. Our Revolution will go the way of Occupy.

I don't say that gleefully. We need an organization something like Our Revolution, but we need a REAL organization, not a dark money organization with no transparency. I was sorry to see Occupy fizzle, too, but I knew it would.

You know why the Tea Party did so well, while Occupy fizzled and now Our Revolution is heading that way before they even get started?

I can tell you, but I'd like to see if you know first. What was the difference?

Bernie will go back to being Senator, write some tweets, go on Tom Hartmann on Fridays, do a video or two. But that's all.

If you don't want to hear hard truths, you don't need to read jdogg or me.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:33 pm 
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You know why the Tea Party did so well, while Occupy fizzled and now Our Revolution is heading that way before they even get started?

I can tell you, but I'd like to see if you know first. What was the difference?


One reason was winter came.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:56 pm 
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One reason was winter came.

Ah, that's certainly a reason for Occupy's demise. I guess ShineOn won't answer.

Here's the reason:

Money.

First part: The Kochs and others bankrolled the Tea Party. Anyone who wanted to go to a Tea Party event could ride in buses for free, buses provided by the Kochs. They provided meals, rented the venues, got the porta-potties, and the people going, mostly retirees, didn't have to spend a dime.

Second Part: The right-wing noise machine kept the propaganda and hate going.

Both groups organized and built the movement with unlimited money from the corporate right.

And they've succeeded in possibly destroying the Republican Party.

And groups like Our Revolution could destroy the Democratic Party, if they gained a lot of people and demanded purity tests, like the right does.

Because we do NOT have a country that's majority far-left. Right now, our nation is center-right. So, if the party consisted of Bernie-ites, we would get no more than 20-25% in elections, if that.

To have a governing majority, we need the Blue Dogs, those who can get elected in conservative areas. It bothers me so few people on the far left understand the reality in our nation. Now, we need to try to convince more of the correctness of our views, but the reality is, we need to understand we can't go too far to the left, or we'll have Republicans running things.

I shudder to think about Bernie having won the nomination. Now, I said no matter who won, I would support them 100%. But they would have smeared Bernie as a socialist and as a communist, and folks, that still works in today's America!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:06 pm 
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So, you admit your attacks were based on the fact that you didn't like my fact-based criticisms of Bernie. No retraction, but it's a little more honest than I expected. So I guess you're saying that your accusations that I'm a "blue-dog dem" or "Republican-lite" are, as Ron Zigler used to say "no longer operative".

But you still refuse to retract them.

As I've pointed out, and you can check, I've always been a fan of Bernie. I was supportive of his run. Early on, he said he would only talk about issues, He refused to attack Hillary in any way.

Then he thought he had a shot at actually winning. He then threw ethics to the wind.

Also, he promised when he ran for President as a Democrat that he would STAY a Democrat. He lied. He's now again an Independent.

One of the problems with Bernie is he's NEVER tried to build the party. Never worked for like-minded candidates.

And, his crying poor while buying a fancy lake house is something that shows his hypocrisy.

Also, his supposed support for Canova, who only got one email from him. Where the hell is Bernie?

And, again, why the dark-money PAC, when the normal style PAC is far better for what Our Revolution is supposed to be about. Are we going to get transparency?

Here's what I think is happening. Bernie is done. About all he's going to do for Our Revolution is tweet. He may get a salary from it, we won't know, they aren't required to say who they pay. To make Our Revolution work would require Bernie to constantly travel and push the revolution, and stump for their candidates. Let's remember that he didn't do as promised for Canova in Florida. Why don't you explain that?

He's not going to be out on the road stumping. Our Revolution will go the way of Occupy.

I don't say that gleefully. We need an organization something like Our Revolution, but we need a REAL organization, not a dark money organization with no transparency. I was sorry to see Occupy fizzle, too, but I knew it would.

You know why the Tea Party did so well, while Occupy fizzled and now Our Revolution is heading that way before they even get started?

I can tell you, but I'd like to see if you know first. What was the difference?

Bernie will go back to being Senator, write some tweets, go on Tom Hartmann on Fridays, do a video or two. But that's all.

If you don't want to hear hard truths, you don't need to read jdogg or me.

Really, I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings, but I'm just being honest about how you are coming across to me and I suspect many other folks around here.


If you perhaps said that you support such issues as Bernie has touched on but then provided a disclaimer about not liking how Bernie was going about addressing a given issue, I might be able to more readily recognize that you are more liberal than a Blue Dog.


But that's not what I hear you saying, so you leave me with the impression that you are closer to being a Blue Dog.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:18 pm 
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Winter didn't help Occupy any, but also the NYPD had been telling the homeless and street people they rousted that they could go to Zuccotti Park and the protest camp would take them in. It wasn't long before the place was full of people that gave the cops an excuse to shut the whole thing down and give the park back to the company that Bloomberg's squeeze had at one time served on the board of.

This tactic was used in several other cities, with similar results. By the time winter came, there were camps in several places with warm climates. They closed down for other reasons.

I can't remember what happened to the one in L.A., except that the LAPD gave everyone warning that City Hall needed its lawn back and that's all there was to it, so they had one day to clear out. The cops showed up in extreme force the next day, and that was that.

By this time, the bottom-up anarchistic structure of Occupy was having trouble coping with a movement that had grown so fast. Meetings went on for hours and accomplished little. Crowds got too big to hear the people in front, and they had to relay everything with the "mike check" procedure. And there were always one or two people who were just there to disrupt.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:25 pm 
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Really, I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings, but I'm just being honest about how you are coming across to me and I suspect many other folks around here.

If you perhaps said that you support such issues as Bernie has touched on but then provided a disclaimer about not liking how Bernie was going about addressing a given issue, I might be able to more readily recognize that you are more liberal than a Blue Dog.

But that's not what I hear you saying, so you leave me with the impression that you are closer to being a Blue Dog.

Nope. Don't blame me for YOUR screwups. Not my problem. I SEVERAL TIMES in the thread made clear that I had been a fan of Bernie's at one time, and it was his actions that bothered me. Not my problem if you didn't read or ignored those posts. You just attack those who aren't a Bernie-aniac like you are. You don't like when people don't see eye-to-eye with you, even though my posts were all fact-based criticisms of Bernie. You think anyone who supports Clinton - and I do - is a Republican lite or a blue dog.

Well, that's just false. Again, this is YOUR problem, not mine.

And it's not about hurt feelings, it's about FACTS, and you prove time after time you don't give a shit about facts.

And no, you're not being honest. Otherwise you would retract your false accusations. And you refuse to. So don't play that Republican game of "I'm sorry if you were offended" bullshit. Because that's what it is, and it's dishonest, and it's sickening. You aren't going to admit you fucked up, so don't fucking say "I'm sorry" about anything when you're trying to blame me for your lack of ability to read someone's posts.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:32 pm 
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Nope. Don't blame me for YOUR screwups. Not my problem. I SEVERAL TIMES in the thread made clear that I had been a fan of Bernie's at one time, and it was his actions that bothered me. Not my problem if you didn't read or ignored those posts. You just attack those who aren't a Bernie-aniac like you are. You don't like when people don't see eye-to-eye with you, even though my posts were all fact-based criticisms of Bernie. You think anyone who supports Clinton - and I do - is a Republican lite or a blue dog.

Well, that's just false. Again, this is YOUR problem, not mine.

And it's not about hurt feelings, it's about FACTS, and you prove time after time you don't give a shit about facts.

And no, you're not being honest. Otherwise you would retract your false accusations. And you refuse to. So don't play that Republican game of "I'm sorry if you were offended" bullshit. Because that's what it is, and it's dishonest, and it's sickening. You aren't going to admit you fucked up, so don't fucking say "I'm sorry" about anything when you're trying to blame me for your lack of ability to read someone's posts.

Okay, okay...I believe you, GoU. Really I do...and I totally enjoy what a good sport you are in these exchanges.


You are right, you've said many times that you would like to see some of the issues Bernie has touched on be handled in ways somewhat similar to what he suggested.


Of course, seems to me that since your return some months back, you only provide such disclaimers when you are prodded to do so. Hence, you are being perceived as a Blue Dog. I tend to realize this is not the correct perception, which is probably the main reason I'm even pursuing this discussion with you.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:43 pm 
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Okay, okay...I believe you, GoU. Really I do...and I totally enjoy what a good sport you are in these exchanges.

It's not good to be sarcastic if you're trying to find common ground and end something.
Quote:
You are right, you've said many times that you would like to see some of the issues Bernie has touched on be handled in ways somewhat similar to what he suggested.

Of course, seems to me that since your return some months back, you only provide such disclaimers when you are prodded to do so. Hence, you are being perceived as a Blue Dog. I tend to realize this is not the correct perception, which is probably the main reason I'm even pursuing this discussion with you.

I'll say just one more thing on this. I did, several times in the thread, state that my problem with Bernie are on his actions AFTER becoming a Democrat and running for President. At first, I was all for it, even though I supported Clinton, because I thought those issues needed a high profile.

But the thing that pisses me off more than anything is his lying that he would STAY a Democrat. At this point I say, fuck him, I wouldn't trust him any farther than I can throw Donald Trump. I have zero respect for him.

I do find it amazing that all the conservatives think I'm the craziest Bolshevik around, and then I get attacked like this.

Now, if you want it, you have the last word.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:57 pm 
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I agree with shine go u is kind of blue dog conservative status quo

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:05 pm 
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It's not good to be sarcastic if you're trying to find common ground and end something.

I'll say just one more thing on this. I did, several times in the thread, state that my problem with Bernie are on his actions AFTER becoming a Democrat and running for President. At first, I was all for it, even though I supported Clinton, because I thought those issues needed a high profile.

But the thing that pisses me off more than anything is his lying that he would STAY a Democrat. At this point I say, fuck him, I wouldn't trust him any farther than I can throw Donald Trump. I have zero respect for him.

I do find it amazing that all the conservatives think I'm the craziest Bolshevik around, and then I get attacked like this.

Now, if you want it, you have the last word.

I've mentioned previously that it would not be appropriate for Bernie to label himself as a Democrat when he was elected as an Independent for his seat in the Senate.


That seems fair, right?


I have no recollection of Bernie saying he would remain a Democrat, but I'm also not completely dismissing what you are saying in this regard. What I do recall Bernie clearly saying is that he would do whatever it took to defeat Trump...he was quite clear on that point.


His supposed attacks on Hillary?...give me a break, such "attacks" were not all that serious or damaging. Cry me a river, already...she's still gonna win the general election, and I figure it will be a pretty big margin of victory.


Now, as far as I'm concerned, and as I've previously stated, Bernie has always been a Democrat, but he has his own methods of going about doing his thing and clearly such methods have worked pretty well for him in his home state. Sure, he's not everything we would want in a politician, but I also think that part of his message is that it is not possible to find everything you want in a single politician, so "let's get on with it!"


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:10 pm 
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I agree with shine go u is kind of blue dog conservative status quo

Prove it then. What positions do I hold that makes you feel that way?

Lay it out.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:26 pm 
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Prove it then. What positions do I hold that makes you feel that way?

Lay it out.


well Puerto Rico comes to mind lowering minimum wage to 4.25 an hour and putting business folks in charge to emergency manage and bring about the privatization of their power company and direct their finances in a way that represents whats best for the big business community and to the detriment of the people there.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:23 pm 
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well Puerto Rico comes to mind lowering minimum wage to 4.25 an hour and putting business folks in charge to emergency manage and bring about the privatization of their power company and direct their finances in a way that represents whats best for the big business community and to the detriment of the people there.

Do you understand the concept of compromise?

No, I didn't want either the minimum wage lowered, or emergency managers.

But the choice was binary. Either that, or let the total economy melt down. Now maybe you don't a shit whether the people would suffer in that, but I did. I have many friends in Puerto Rico. I was listening to them.

How about YOU?

Next? C'mon, lay it out.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:40 pm 
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Do you understand the concept of compromise?

No, I didn't want either the minimum wage lowered, or emergency managers.

But the choice was binary. Either that, or let the total economy melt down. Now maybe you don't a shit whether the people would suffer in that, but I did. I have many friends in Puerto Rico. I was listening to them.

How about YOU?

Next? C'mon, lay it out.

its always binary thats the con watch they will pull the exact same con again after a short period of calm. Mostly what you post about is not liking Bernie Sanders or Bernie Sanders supporters so how bout you tell us what are you liberal about?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:08 pm 
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its always binary thats the con watch they will pull the exact same con again after a short period of calm. Mostly what you post about is not liking Bernie Sanders or Bernie Sanders supporters so how bout you tell us what are you liberal about?

Mostly I post about not liking Bernie?

Are you kidding me? I'm the most prolific poster here. Hell, I was gone seven months and I STILL have the most posts!

Almost none of them have been about Bernie Sanders.

But it's YOU that make the accusation. It's up to YOU to prove I'm not a liberal. Make your case, or retract it and admit you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

But I am going to make one point. Do a search on "Bernie" for the poster gounion. You'll get 19 pages of returns. Many of those posts are mentioning Bernie the Union Guy, but you'll see what I said about Bernie before his run for President. Here's a good one, when I'm talking to glenfs in 2011:

You obviously know very little about Bernie Sanders. He believes in a regulated market economy. If Sanders' policies were implemented, NAFTA would be gone, we'd all have jobs, you'd be paid better, have health care, and a pension and retirement. You wouldn't be taxed to death, either. Oh, Mitt Romney might have to pay taxes, too, which he doesn't want to do, but you'd be able to enjoy life more and have fewer worries.

Thing is, you don't know a damn thing about countries you call "socialist" - they aren't, everyone has a market economy. None of them are planned. But they all have unions which negotiate good wages and benefits, and the standards of living for working people are far better than ours.

And companies thrive in those countries. You should ask yourself "why" and wonder if you've been fed a line of bullshit.

And, if the Republicans take over, "gathering your food" is just what you might end up having to do. From the garbage dump.


Now, you've got everything I've said on this board. It should be easy-peasy for you to prove I'm really a conservative in disguise.

Go ahead. Or admit you were just talking out your ass.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:57 pm 
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wasnt here in 2011 what I see now is endless complaining about Bernie and his supporters basicly trying to marginalize them the kind of thing conservative or uh moderates like to do. you complain because there is no organizing or slate of candidates then when shown there are you complain again. I just chalk it up to people liking to tell others they cant do something or not to try no shortage of that kind of thing in this world.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:02 pm 
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wasnt here in 2011 what I see now is endless complaining about Bernie and his supporters basicly trying to marginalize them the kind of thing conservative or uh moderates like to do. you complain because there is no organizing or slate of candidates then when shown there are you complain again. I just chalk it up to people liking to tell others they cant do something or not to try no shortage of that kind of thing in this world.

So, you're just talking out your ass, because someone don't share the undying blind love you share for Bernie.

Again, my problems with Bernie are fact-based. Why did he promise all the help to Canova against Wasserman Shultz, but now he won't do anything more than write one email?

I see your view: Anyone who isn't as crazy-far-left as you is a Republican. And facts won't sway your false assumption.

Just another purity judge.

So it looks like the only way for you to talk is out your ass.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:12 pm 
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Are you kidding me? I'm the most prolific poster here.

At one time, no doubt that was the case, but today I'd suspect that the lovely miss carmenjonze makes more posts per day than you do, by a considerable margin, mind you.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:23 pm 
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At one time, no doubt that was the case, but today I'd suspect that the lovely miss carmenjonze makes more posts per day than you do, by a considerable margin, mind you.

Bring it! :rw)

Veritas can make a load of posts, too.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:28 pm 
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Why did he promise all the help to Canova against Wasserman Shultz, but now he won't do anything more than write one email?


I guess this is what I do not understand. Bernie lost momentum. Probably around the same time as realizing that no, he is not going to be the nominee.

Right about the same time as the NV chair incident that happened, that as everybody knows didn't happen :problem: . Right about the same time people like myself started to wake up and realize the same people that people like me have never been able to count on any more than Dixiecrats or Reagan Democrats -- E.g. the same types calling for Obama's head around Jan 21 2009 do not have my back and have never had my back, preferring ideological purity to actually getting life-altering legislation passed -- are the Lucys with the football.

It's the same people, along with Donald Trump, that loudly proclaim that the Dems take my vote for granted.

IDK why it has taken me a couple decades to get this through my head; I suppose because I still want to believe potential allies are actual allies..who doesn't want to believe that. But I have a particular experience with fervent belief. It tempered my belief in the berniebros in 2016.

Finally. I am glad.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:30 pm 
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Bring it! :rw)

Veritas can make a load of posts, too.



Image

Hecka Veritas, my friends.

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