Corporations and bankruptcy

[Libertas]

Here’s the thing: Opioids like Oxycotin have their place. For terminal cancer patients, they are a godsend. If you’re going to die anyway, keeping those final days in relative comfort are great.

But you can’t make much money that way. And for corporations, the ONLY thing that REALLY matters is making as much profit as possible. That’s the reality. So it was about lying about the addictive nature of the drugs, and getting doctors to prescribe them like so much candy.

So Joe really doesn’t care that a half a million people died, and millions more addicted. It’s all about the profit.

To refer to what they did with oxy as "one act" is the ultimate of hubris. I dont know how you talk to them.

Sadly I am an expert on this subject from most if not all angles.

[JoeMemphis]

It’ s simple. Corporations are set up to relieve the leadership of their actions. Period.

We disagree. I note you never answered my question of citing a provision in the law protecting corporate employees from responsibility for their criminal acts. I also note, you have no response as to why the current administration isn’t prosecuting people for the crimes you allege they have committed.

[gounion]

We disagree. I note you never answered my question of citing a provision in the law protecting corporate employees from responsibility for their criminal acts. I also note, you have no response as to why the current administration isn’t prosecuting people for the crimes you allege they have committed.

Here's a great explanation (read the entire article):

There are many really embarrassing problems with our corporate criminal law. One is the law of respondeat superior. That’s the doctrine that helps courts determine when corporations are guilty of a crime. It basically says that corporations do whatever their individual employees do, so long as those employees are acting within the scope of their authority and intend to benefit their corporate employer. So, roughly speaking, a corporation commits a crime when, and only when, one of its employees commits a crime.

But there will rarely be direct evidence of a single person committing a crime at big, publicly traded corporations, so convictions are rare under this law. Even where evidence is available, it often shows that no individual did anything criminal, even when individuals collectively produced criminal harm. It seems that we need to consider all of a corporation’s actions as a unit, rather than those of any single employee, if we want to hold corporations accountable when they do things and there’s nobody to take the blame.

I note you didn't comment on my brother-in-law's issue. A human can only declare personal bankruptcy once. But a person can have several corporations and declare bankruptcy all the time. That's what this man did - take a man's money, pay it out to himself, then let the worthless husk go bankrupt, start another one and continue on.

And this is what you defend.

And let's be clear - this is another difference between us. I don't defend unions that are wrong, I denounce them. You never denounce a corporation. You defend them and the system. Not surprising, that's your bread and butter. But even though I was employed by a union, I never defended illegality.

[JoeMemphis]

Here's a great explanation (read the entire article):



I note you didn't comment on my brother-in-law's issue. A human can only declare personal bankruptcy once. But a person can have several corporations and declare bankruptcy all the time. That's what this man did - take a man's money, pay it out to himself, then let the worthless husk go bankrupt, start another one and continue on.

And this is what you defend.

And let's be clear - this is another difference between us. I don't defend unions that are wrong, I denounce them. You never denounce a corporation. You defend them and the system. Not surprising, that's your bread and butter. But even though I was employed by a union, I never defended illegality.

For one thing I don’t know the facts and circumstances behind your brother in laws case. So I don’t make guilt or innocence decisions based on limited or incomplete information. I don’t do that with Democrats. I don’t do it with Republicans. I don’t do it with unions. I don’t do it with private industry. In my line of work we don’t make comments like that. The only exception I can remember was the case of the Clintons. Other than that I have always deferred to the investigations by independent professionals and the court system to find the truth and to render judgement.

I don’t defend bad behavior from anyone, regardless of whether they are individuals or groups of individuals. I just don’t rush to judgement without hearing all the facts. I get that bothers you. It doesn’t bother me. I think it’s the only fair way to be.

[gounion]

For one thing I don’t know the facts and circumstances behind your brother in laws case. So I don’t make guilt or innocence decisions based on limited or incomplete information. I don’t do that with Democrats. I don’t do it with Republicans. I don’t do it with unions. I don’t do it with private industry. In my line of work we don’t make comments like that. The only exception I can remember was the case of the Clintons. Other than that I have always deferred to the investigations by independent professionals and the court system to find the truth and to render judgement.

I don’t defend bad behavior from anyone, regardless of whether they are individuals or groups of individuals. I just don’t rush to judgement without hearing all the facts. I get that bothers you. It doesn’t bother me. I think it’s the only fair way to be.

Let's be clear about this: Such actions are legal and possible, aren't they? I don't even know about it except from heresay. But it rings true, doesn't it?

Oh, yes, you do make such judgments all the time. You accuse me of basically getting fired by my employer for not being any good at my job. It doesn't bother you at all to lie about me.

[Glennfs]

It’ s simple. Corporations are set up to relieve the leadership of their actions. Period.

So the ceo of a corporation like ExxonMobil should be held criminally liable for any criminal acts done by ExxonMobil.

As if they would know everything going on in the company all the time.

It would be like holding the union president liable for crimes committed at a local

[JoeMemphis]

Let's be clear about this: Such actions are legal and possible, aren't they? I don't even know about it except from heresay. But it rings true, doesn't it?

Oh, yes, you do make such judgments all the time. You accuse me of basically getting fired by my employer for not being any good at my job. It doesn't bother you at all to lie about me.

As you said to me GoU, if you don’t like being attacked, don’t start it. You instigate most of that behavior. You draw first blood. So don’t complain when people bite back. For what it’s worth, since the board started over, I have tried to be civil. So if It makes you feel better, I withdraw any previous comments I made concerning your employment. I have no knowledge of the circumstances behind your departure and will never speak of it again.

[gounion]

As you said to me GoU, if you don’t like being attacked, don’t start it. You instigate most of that behavior. You draw first blood. So don’t complain when people bite back. For what it’s worth, since the board started over, I have tried to be civil. So if It makes you feel better, I withdraw any previous comments I made concerning your employment. I have no knowledge of the circumstances behind your departure and will never speak of it again.

Of course, as always, when you do something wrong, it's someone else's fault. You can NEVER take responsibility for your actions.

As Number Six pointed out the other day, your attack was unwarranted, and you did NOT do it in response to anything I did.

We'll see if you're good to your word. You have never been before, it would be quite a change.

[gounion]

So the ceo of a corporation like ExxonMobil should be held criminally liable for any criminal acts done by ExxonMobil.

If they were held responsible, then they would do a lot more to make sure the company was lawful, wouldn't they?

Let's talk about a few. Purdue Pharma. The Sacklers and the CEOs all knew that hundreds of thousands were dying. Why shouldn't they be held criminally responsible?

Wells Fargo. They were directing their workers to make up false accounts for their customers. This was widespread across the company. Why shouldn't they be held criminally responsible?

As if they would know everything going on in the company all the time.

But they know about the big things happening. They can't NOT know, when that's often why they are making huge profits. Such as the two companies I mentioned.

It would be like holding the union president liable for crimes committed at a local

Here's the difference: Union Presidents DO go to jail. The President of the UAW is going to jail or is already there. Haven't kept up. Deservedly so. He broke the trust of his membership. And anyone committing a crime at a local? THEY go to jail.

Completely different than a corporation. Again, it's like robbing a bank when you can't get arrested or go to jail for the crime, you get to keep the money and just pay a $25 fine if you got caught. OF COURSE you're going to rob banks!

[JoeMemphis]

Of course, as always, when you do something wrong, it's someone else's fault. You can NEVER take responsibility for your actions.

As Number Six pointed out the other day, your attack was unwarranted, and you did NOT do it in response to anything I did.

We'll see if you're good to your word. You have never been before, it would be quite a change.

Perhaps you could lead by example.

[gounion]

Perhaps you could lead by example.

Perhaps you could stop blaming others for your actions, and take personal responsibility. I have NEVER blamed you for anything I did or said. Can't say the same for you, you never take personal responsibility and always blame others for making you do or say something.

Grow the fuck up.

[JoeMemphis]

Perhaps you could stop blaming others for your actions, and take personal responsibility. I have NEVER blamed you for anything I did or said. Can't say the same for you, you never take personal responsibility and always blame others for making you do or say something.

Grow the fuck up.

I don’t purposely misrepresent what people post on a regular basis. Today, you have made several claims that I support this or that and when challenged to provide proof, you neither provided proof nor retracted your statements. I had to ask you twice not to put words in my mouth. So don’t complain if others post as you post. You have no right to complain. Perhaps it is you who should “grow up”. Adults can make their points without repeatedly and deliberately distorting the posts of others.

[gounion]

I don’t purposely misrepresent what people post on a regular basis. Today, you have made several claims that I support this or that and when challenged to provide proof, you neither provided proof nor retracted your statements. I had to ask you twice not to put words in my mouth. So don’t complain if others post as you post. You have no right to complain. Perhaps it is you who should “grow up”. Adults can make their points without repeatedly and deliberately distorting the posts of others.

Yes, you do. Just today you blamed me for your own actions. Take responsibility. I don't blame you for what I say. So grow up.

I mean, you just now admitted you had no information about me, and just made shit up to falsely attack my character, then blamed me for it when you were called out. Did you apologize? Hell no. But when I was wrong about you, I HAVE apologized. So I think that says all that needs to be said about the content of our character, doesn't it?

But again, you deflect. Why do we have laws so that people can form corporations, rip people off, run them through bankruptcy and just keep going with a new corporation, leaving those ripped off with no way to get restitution or justice?

This is the system you guys love.

[JoeMemphis]

Yes, you do. Just today you blamed me for your own actions. Take responsibility. I don't blame you for what I say. So grow up.

I mean, you just now admitted you had no information about me, and just made shit up to falsely attack my character, then blamed me for it when you were called out. Did you apologize? Hell no. But when I was wrong about you, I HAVE apologized. So I think that says all that needs to be said about the content of our character, doesn't it?

But again, you deflect. Why do we have laws so that people can form corporations, rip people off, run them through bankruptcy and just keep going with a new corporation, leaving those ripped off with no way to get restitution or justice?

This is the system you guys love.

An apology from you is worth nothing to me. You will continue to post and distort and misrepresent. So it’s all empty words meaning nothing. I admitted what I admitted. I’m responsible for what I post. Not your misrepresentations or distortions of what I post. Those are on you. I don’t owe you an apology so don’t expect to get one.

As to your question on the law, I’m not a lawyer or a legislator. You have claimed that corporations and their officers have committed crimes. If that is true, we have regulatory bodies and civil courts to deal with torts and prosecutors and criminal courts to deal with criminal behavior. Last I checked, the party you favor and I assume support, is in charge of all three branches of government. There is nothing to stop them from pursuing charges for past bad behavior. Nothing. Perhaps you should direct your inquires to them.

[gounion]

An apology from you is worth nothing to me. You will continue to post and distort and misrepresent. So it’s all empty words meaning nothing. I admitted what I admitted. I’m responsible for what I post. Not your misrepresentations or distortions of what I post. Those are on you. I don’t owe you an apology so don’t expect to get one.

Oh, you do like Trump - you NEVER apologize. Me, I believe in right and wrong, and when I'm wrong, I apologize.

But let's be clear - you DID admit to blatantly lying about me. So we know where you are coming from. Lies come easy to you. So you are admittedly guilty of everything you accuse me of. Of course, when you do lie like that, you accuse me of having forced you to do so. Can't take responsibility for your actions.

As to your question on the law, I’m not a lawyer or a legislator. You have claimed that corporations and their officers have committed crimes. If that is true, we have regulatory bodies and civil courts to deal with torts and prosecutors and criminal courts to deal with criminal behavior. Last I checked, the party you favor and I assume support, is in charge of all three branches of government. There is nothing to stop them from pursuing charges for past bad behavior. Nothing. Perhaps you should direct your inquires to them.

You ARE an accountant, and know the law concerning corporations. You know what I described is perfectly legal.

I said nothing about crimes. What they did was perfectly legal. It's easy to use the law to steal. Corporations do it every day. I say it's wrong to steal, you say it's fine if it's legal.

And it's how Mitt Romney made his millions. Using bankruptcy court and shell companies to make the theft perfectly legal. Even when it's stealing a pension plan!

[Glennfs]

An apology from you is worth nothing to me. You will continue to post and distort and misrepresent. So it’s all empty words meaning nothing. I admitted what I admitted. I’m responsible for what I post. Not your misrepresentations or distortions of what I post. Those are on you. I don’t owe you an apology so don’t expect to get one.

As to your question on the law, I’m not a lawyer or a legislator. You have claimed that corporations and their officers have committed crimes. If that is true, we have regulatory bodies and civil courts to deal with torts and prosecutors and criminal courts to deal with criminal behavior. Last I checked, the party you favor and I assume support, is in charge of all three branches of government. There is nothing to stop them from pursuing charges for past bad behavior. Nothing. Perhaps you should direct your inquires to them.

Ok here is where I have to disagree. Saying that GoU was dismissed from his job because of performance was mean spirited and a low blow.
Something said I am sure when you were very angry. A simple meaculpa explaining I was very mad at the time wouldn't hurt anyone.

[JoeMemphis]

Oh, you do like Trump - you NEVER apologize. Me, I believe in right and wrong, and when I'm wrong, I apologize.

But let's be clear - you DID admit to blatantly lying about me. So we know where you are coming from. Lies come easy to you. So you are admittedly guilty of everything you accuse me of. Of course, when you do lie like that, you accuse me of having forced you to do so. Can't take responsibility for your actions.

You ARE an accountant, and know the law concerning corporations. You know what I described is perfectly legal.

I said nothing about crimes. What they did was perfectly legal. It's easy to use the law to steal. Corporations do it every day. I say it's wrong to steal, you say it's fine if it's legal.

And it's how Mitt Romney made his millions. Using bankruptcy court and shell companies to make the theft perfectly legal. Even when it's stealing a pension plan!

I take responsibility for what I post. Not your distortions. It’s nothing but blatant hypocrisy on your part to complain when people treat you the way you have treated people on this board for years. So don’t lecture me on dishonesty or integrity or taking responsibility when you rarely do. You lack credibility or standing. If you apologized every time you have distorted what others have posted we would have blown up the board years ago.

I know a fair amount about corporate law and a fair amount about business and bankruptcy. There are risks in business and it’s not always fair. Business owners, creditors, lenders etc should understand the risks prior to going into business. There is no guarantee of profit and the risk of loss is real.

I posted on turnarounds and venture capital earlier and will not repeat what I have already posted.

[gounion]

I take responsibility for what I post. Not your distortions. It’s nothing but blatant hypocrisy on your part to complain when people treat you the way you have treated people on this board for years. So don’t lecture me on dishonesty or integrity or taking responsibility when you rarely do. You lack credibility or standing. If you apologized every time you have distorted what others have posted we would have blown up the board years ago.

I know a fair amount about corporate law and a fair amount about business and bankruptcy. There are risks in business and it’s not always fair. Business owners, creditors, lenders etc should understand the risks prior to going into business. There is no guarantee of profit and the risk of loss is real.

I posted on turnarounds and venture capital earlier and will not repeat what I have already posted.

No, you have not. You always blamed me for forcing you to post that crap. You never take responsibility. I'll lecture you all I want. You sure need it.

Yes, so you know what I heard happened to my wife's family member is quite plausible and happens all the time, don't you? You're just not honest enough to admit it.

And sorry, those posts are all gone. Not replying just shows that you didn't have any defense for what Romney did.

[JoeMemphis]

No, you have not. You always blamed me for forcing you to post that crap. You never take responsibility. I'll lecture you all I want. You sure need it.

Yes, so you know what I heard happened to my wife's family member is quite plausible and happens all the time, don't you? You're just not honest enough to admit it.

And sorry, those posts are all gone. Not replying just shows that you didn't have any defense for what Romney did.

You think way too much of yourself. I have never blamed you for forcing me to do anything. It’s an anonymous board. You don’t have the power or ability to force anybody to do anything. Get over yourself. You aren’t that charismatic or influential. I said earlier that I take responsibility for what I post. Not your distortions. Your lectures on honesty, integrity and responsibility are as empty, hollow and meaningless as any apology you make for that behavior. It appears that you cannot help yourself.

As to paragraph two, people lose money in business all the time. It happens everyday. As I said earlier, it isn’t always fair. People who go into business or invest money should understand those risks before putting money on the line. I do not know the case with your BIL or whether illegality was involved. So I cannot and will not opine. My advice would be for people who feel as you, do not invest in the market, do not go into business. Be an employee. Nothing wrong with that.

I posted earlier on venture capital on this new board. They should still be there.

[gounion]

You think way too much of yourself. I have never blamed you for forcing me to do anything. It’s an anonymous board. You don’t have the power or ability to force anybody to do anything. Get over yourself. You aren’t that charismatic or influential. I said earlier that I take responsibility for what I post. Not your distortions. Your lectures on honesty, integrity and responsibility are as empty, hollow and meaningless as any apology you make for that behavior. It appears that you cannot help yourself.

As to paragraph two, people lose money in business all the time. It happens everyday. As I said earlier, it isn’t always fair. People who go into business or invest money should understand those risks before putting money on the line. I do not know the case with your BIL or whether illegality was involved. So I cannot and will not opine. My advice would be for people who feel as you, do not invest in the market, do not go into business. Be an employee. Nothing wrong with that.

I posted earlier on venture capital on this new board. They should still be there.

Yes, when you lied about me, you always said it was my fault you did so. Number Six called you on your bullshit right before the board went down. Whereas I never blamed you for any of my actions. That's why when you made cracks about people living in people's heads, everyone could see you were projecting. And after what you did, you have place to judge or lecture others on honesty. You admit you made up lies.

Yep, people are ripped of by people using corporations all the time.

And it wasn't the guy who had the corporation who lost money. It was my BIL. He was legally ripped off using shell corporations.

But you defend the practice, because hey, that corporate game is how guys like you make money.

But we always have to deal with corporations. Corporations who won't sell you anything unless you sign a paper giving away your rights as an American citizen to sue. I stand against such corruption. You stand in it's defense.

Venture - or VULTURE Capitalism is another one of those things that is nothing but corruption, using the bankruptcy system to get filthy rich while squashing normal people who are only trying to make a living, or keep their pension plan.

[JoeMemphis]

Yes, when you lied about me, you always said it was my fault you did so. Number Six called you on your bullshit right before the board went down. Whereas I never blamed you for any of my actions. That's why when you made cracks about people living in people's heads, everyone could see you were projecting. And after what you did, you have place to judge or lecture others on honesty. You admit you made up lies.

Yep, people are ripped of by people using corporations all the time.

And it wasn't the guy who had the corporation who lost money. It was my BIL. He was legally ripped off using shell corporations.

But you defend the practice, because hey, that corporate game is how guys like you make money.

But we always have to deal with corporations. Corporations who won't sell you anything unless you sign a paper giving away your rights as an American citizen to sue. I stand against such corruption. You stand in it's defense.

Venture - or VULTURE Capitalism is another one of those things that is nothing but corruption, using the bankruptcy system to get filthy rich while squashing normal people who are only trying to make a living, or keep their pension plan.

This whining about how you are the victim is pretty pathetic. Is that what you are going for? Cause congrats. You’re there.

I haven’t defended theft of money, legally or illegally. I haven’t advocated or defended people who walk away from their obligations.

Sorry your BIL lost money. I’ve been there myself. But I understood the risk going in. Someone walked away from a debt and left me holding the bag. Was it right? No. Was it illegal? No. Was it theft? No. It was just business. You win some. You lose some. If you aren’t up for the risk, don’t put up the money.

If you sign a contract that limits your rights, that means you understand the risk going in. If you don’t accept the risk, don’t sign the agreement.

I don’t accept your characterization of venture capital. People who deal with venture capital should understand the risk. Many of these firms are strapped financially and can’t get money thru conventual lenders. If they could they would. They would otherwise be in bankruptcy. So the venture capital firm is the Hail Mary pass to stay in business. And yes, those VC forms are going to protect their investment and they are going to expect high returns. They are most often secured creditors with 1st position on all the businesses liquid assets and secured positions on the fixed assets.

So if you are a creditor of a company working with a VC firm, you are an unsecured creditor on a debt from a company that is highly leveraged. You may want to think twice before extending credit. That’s just business. That’s part of managing your credit. I’ve been a credit manager and risk management is part and parcel of the job. People can and will file bankruptcy on you. It’s part of the cost of business. Not everyone you deal with will be successful and will be able to pay you back. If you want that kind of security, go to a bank or buy treasuries. You won’t earn much interest but you won’t lose money.

[gounion]

This whining about how you are the victim is pretty pathetic. Is that what you are going for? Cause congrats. You’re there.

Oh, I'm no victim. You haven't hurt MY reputation, or my credibility. The only one who lost any credibility is YOU, and you've admitted to making shit up about another person.

I haven’t defended theft of money, legally or illegally. I haven’t advocated or defended people who walk away from their obligations.

Yes, that's your main reason for being here.

Sorry your BIL lost money. I’ve been there myself. But I understood the risk going in. Someone walked away from a debt and left me holding the bag. Was it right? No. Was it illegal? No. Was it theft? No. It was just business. You win some. You lose some. If you aren’t up for the risk, don’t put up the money.

Yes, it WAS theft. You see, that's where you guys come from. "It's just business." Just because theft is legal doesn't mean it isn't still theft. That's how you operate. "It's just business". Half a million dead? "It's just business". You win some, you lose some. Right?

Pro tip, Joe: Killing people is not "just business".

If you sign a contract that limits your rights, that means you understand the risk going in. If you don’t accept the risk, don’t sign the agreement.

I don’t accept your characterization of venture capital. People who deal with venture capital should understand the risk. Many of these firms are strapped financially and can’t get money thru conventual lenders. If they could they would. They would otherwise be in bankruptcy. So the venture capital firm is the Hail Mary pass to stay in business. And yes, those VC forms are going to protect their investment and they are going to expect high returns. They are most often secured creditors with 1st position on all the businesses liquid assets and secured positions on the fixed assets.

So if you are a creditor of a company working with a VC firm, you are an unsecured creditor on a debt from a company that is highly leveraged. You may want to think twice before extending credit. That’s just business. That’s part of managing your credit. I’ve been a credit manager and risk management is part and parcel of the job. People can and will file bankruptcy on you. It’s part of the cost of business. Not everyone you deal with will be successful and will be able to pay you back. If you want that kind of security, go to a bank or buy treasuries. You won’t earn much interest but you won’t lose money.

Folks like Romney buy these companies with loans. After they've taken millions upon millions out as "management fees" further hurting the company, they sell off any of the parts of it that have any worth, and sometimes, like Romney, they "steal" the pension plans - all perfectly legal - then they run the worthless husk through bankruptcy court so they don't have to pay back the loans they bought the company with in the first place!

I know, I dealt with a company that was bought by Goldman Sachs. I was in those negotiations, where the company told us all of the debt that GS had used to buy the company, then loaded onto the company, so they couldn't develop new products and further fell behind. They were later sold off at a loss to another company, their product line folded into the new parent.

I've seen it up close. It's corrupt.

[JoeMemphis]

Oh, I'm no victim. You haven't hurt MY reputation, or my credibility. The only one who lost any credibility is YOU, and you've admitted to making shit up about another person.

Yes, that's your main reason for being here.

Yes, it WAS theft. You see, that's where you guys come from. "It's just business." Just because theft is legal doesn't mean it isn't still theft. That's how you operate. "It's just business". Half a million dead? "It's just business". You win some, you lose some. Right?

Pro tip, Joe: Killing people is not "just business".
Folks like Romney buy these companies with loans. After they've taken millions upon millions out as "management fees" further hurting the company, they sell off any of the parts of it that have any worth, and sometimes, like Romney, they "steal" the pension plans - all perfectly legal - then they run the worthless husk through bankruptcy court so they don't have to pay back the loans they bought the company with in the first place!

I know, I dealt with a company that was bought by Goldman Sachs. I was in those negotiations, where the company told us all of the debt that GS had used to buy the company, then loaded onto the company, so they couldn't develop new products and further fell behind. They were later sold off at a loss to another company, their product line folded into the new parent.

I've seen it up close. It's corrupt.

If you are no victim you should try not to sound like one.

Credibility on an anonymous message board is worth exactly what in your opinion? Reputation on an anonymous message board is worth what? Pro tip GoU - we are anonymous so we don’t have to worry about that shit. If it’s all that important to you then that’s pretty pathetic.

I would think that I would be in a much better decision to know whether a deal I lost money on is theft. Certainly in a much better position than you.

The half million dead analogy is yours not mine. It’s not how I think. Perhaps it’s how you think.

I can tell from your post that you don’t fully understand how VC deals are structured. Once again, you don’t have all the relative facts but you go on talking g like you do.

Finally, the folks you were dealing with that did a deal with GS, you make it sound like they were not smart enough to read and understand their agreement. I have been in those meetings as well. I have actually read those documents that lay out the rights of the lender and the rights of the debtor. Nothing is hidden. It’s all in there. They clearly let you know how much the money costs and what you as the business have to do to stay in compliance and in control. It’s not easy but if the owners performs as they claim, it will work. It the owner fails then the lender can call the loan. Its that simple. It the owner has a better option, then they should take it. I have told owners as much. But if you are looking for someone to take a risky bet on your business, it’s going to come with strings. If you don’t like to deal, borrow the money elsewhere or go bankrupt. The VC company usually isn’t hurting for deals.

[gounion]

If you are no victim you should try not to sound like one.

Credibility on an anonymous message board is worth exactly what in your opinion? Reputation on an anonymous message board is worth what? Pro tip GoU - we are anonymous so we don’t have to worry about that shit. If it’s all that important to you then that’s pretty pathetic.

Not me. I do realize some people come to a message board to pretend to be someone they aren't, and to be a big expert. Maybe that's you, but my personal credibility IS important to me, even on an anonymous board. Of course, I'm not anonymous to many people here. You, on the other hand are. No one knows who you are. So all we have is what you say about yourself. And you said a lot today about your willingness to make shit up about others.

I would think that I would be in a much better decision to know whether a deal I lost money on is theft. Certainly in a much better position than you.

Really? So explain to me how, if someone contracts to build a house for you, takes your money and doesn't build the house, how is that not theft? Now, again, I realize it's legal. But it's theft.

The half million dead analogy is yours not mine. It’s not how I think. Perhaps it’s how you think.

No, you're the one that defends these corporations when they kill.

I can tell from your post that you don’t fully understand how VC deals are structured. Once again, you don’t have all the relative facts but you go on talking g like you do.

I know how these work, I've read quite a lot on them, as well as Mitt Romney and what he did. I could give you some links if you need to bring yourself up to speed.

Finally, the folks you were dealing with that did a deal with GS, you make it sound like they were not smart enough to read and understand their agreement. I have been in those meetings as well. I have actually read those documents that lay out the rights of the lender and the rights of the debtor. Nothing is hidden. It’s all in there. They clearly let you know how much the money costs and what you as the business have to do to stay in compliance and in control. It’s not easy but if the owners performs as they claim, it will work. It the owner fails then the lender can call the loan. Its that simple. It the owner has a better option, then they should take it. I have told owners as much. But if you are looking for someone to take a risky bet on your business, it’s going to come with strings. If you don’t like to deal, borrow the money elsewhere or go bankrupt. The VC company usually isn’t hurting for deals.

Oh, yeah, the company was sold from a major defense contractor and the leaders of the company got huge payoffs and bonuses to spin the company off. They made out with millions apiece. But then they had all this debt the company had to pay off. It caused them to drown with no way to make a profit. Of course, once they made their millions, they tried to fix things by attacking the workers, but they had a union to protect them. First they tried to cut wages and benefits, and that caused a strike that set them further back. Then they tried to declared bankruptcy to give the pension plan over the the PBCG, but the union blocked that in court, too. They did freeze the pension, but the workers were able to keep what they had earned. Then they tried to sell the company to a Chinese company, but we blocked that in court too. We were finally able to talk another one of the companies we had contracts with, a competitor, to buy them, and the people are still working.

But that's the normal way for these companies - pay off those who are making the decision to sell or not. They do what's in their best interests and then they fuck everyone else in the company.

Luckily for our folks, having a great union with resources protected them all the way. Without a union, they'd have gotten their pension stolen like Romney stole the steel company pension. Without the union, the company would have sold their product lines off, shut it down, and ran the dead husk through bankruptcy and it would be no more, and the workers left with nothing at all.

What do you call that? Oh, yeah, "just business". Winners and losers, right?

[JoeMemphis]

Not me. I do realize some people come to a message board to pretend to be someone they aren't, and to be a big expert. Maybe that's you, but my personal credibility IS important to me, even on an anonymous board. Of course, I'm not anonymous to many people here. You, on the other hand are. No one knows who you are. So all we have is what you say about yourself. And you said a lot today about your willingness to make shit up about others.

Really? So explain to me how, if someone contracts to build a house for you, takes your money and doesn't build the house, how is that not theft? Now, again, I realize it's legal. But it's theft.

No, you're the one that defends these corporations when they kill.

I know how these work, I've read quite a lot on them, as well as Mitt Romney and what he did. I could give you some links if you need to bring yourself up to speed.
Oh, yeah, the company was sold from a major defense contractor and the leaders of the company got huge payoffs and bonuses to spin the company off. They made out with millions apiece. But then they had all this debt the company had to pay off. It caused them to drown with no way to make a profit. Of course, once they made their millions, they tried to fix things by attacking the workers, but they had a union to protect them. First they tried to cut wages and benefits, and that caused a strike that set them further back. Then they tried to declared bankruptcy to give the pension plan over the the PBCG, but the union blocked that in court, too. They did freeze the pension, but the workers were able to keep what they had earned. Then they tried to sell the company to a Chinese company, but we blocked that in court too. We were finally able to talk another one of the companies we had contracts with, a competitor, to buy them, and the people are still working.

But that's the normal way for these companies - pay off those who are making the decision to sell or not. They do what's in their best interests and then they fuck everyone else in the company.

Luckily for our folks, having a great union with resources protected them all the way. Without a union, they'd have gotten their pension stolen like Romney stole the steel company pension. Without the union, the company would have sold their product lines off, shut it down, and ran the dead husk through bankruptcy and it would be no more, and the workers left with nothing at all.

What do you call that? Oh, yeah, "just business". Winners and losers, right?

I am more concerned with my credibility with the people I deal with in life. However, my opinions are the same either way. Whether you or other members choose to believe an anonymous poster on the internet is up to you. I certainly don’t and won’t put my chips in that basket.

The deal I was speaking about wasn’t a house. So your analogy is meaningless and irrelevant. I knew all along that this was a risky deal. I knew I could very well lose money. I choose to invest the money. It was my decision to do so and when the deal failed and I was called to honor the debt, I paid it without complaint. I still run into the guy from time to time. I won’t make the same mistake again. He’s no thief. He didn’t run off with the money. It went into the company. He just couldn’t pay it back and he gave up trying. He’s just not a good business manager.

Speaking of making up shit. I haven’t defended any corporations for killing people. You just made that up. So much for your self touted credibility. How little it means to you and how cheaply and easily you compromise it.

I’m not going to argue with you about how VC deals are structured. They vary somewhat from deal to deal. I can tell from how you post that you don’t understand how they work and/or how bankruptcy works. But you showed that back in the GM bankruptcy days.

Corrected. Not the GM bankruptcy but the Detroit bankruptcy. It was handled by the same bankruptcy attorney that worked the GM bankruptcy as I recall.