Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

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ProfX
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by ProfX »

This is what I think Trump thought would happen.

The insurrectionists would disrupt the EC affirming vote in Congress. I think the 2nd part of the "plan" was that with things disrupted and thrown into chaos, enough of "his people" in Congress would be able to funk things up by rejecting the EC/EV results from various states, approving so-called "alternative electors" and overturn the election. Please note what Peter Navarro openly discussed and admitted in an interview - it's all there.

That the 2nd part of the plan failed because it was poorly planned and/or executed like so much in Trumplandia, doesn't mean as a plan it didn't exist, and again, if one takes blinders off and looks at known evidence at this point, it's clear in "war rooms" that was being discussed prior to 1/6.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by marindem01 »

gounion wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:14 am More like inciting a revolution.

It's funny how you say Trump wasn't trying to overturn an election and have a coup.
Glenn's non-defense/defense of the Traitor has become tiresome.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by Libertas »

ProfX wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:29 am This is what I think Trump thought would happen.

The insurrectionists would disrupt the EC affirming vote in Congress. I think the 2nd part of the "plan" was that with things disrupted and thrown into chaos, enough of "his people" in Congress would be able to funk things up by rejecting the EC/EV results from various states, approving so-called "alternative electors" and overturn the election. Please note what Peter Navarro openly discussed and admitted in an interview - it's all there.

That the 2nd part of the plan failed because it was poorly planned and/or executed like so much in Trumplandia, doesn't mean as a plan it didn't exist, and again, if one takes blinders off and looks at known evidence at this point, it's clear in "war rooms" that was being discussed prior to 1/6.
Yes, thank you.

What is also clear is by denying the reality of what happened and what is continuing to happen, rank and file Republicans like those on this board are enabling the end of America.

They will keep laughing at that statement right up to the point when it all ends and it won’t bother them because like some of us here have said over and over that is what they want.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by Number6 »

Glennfs wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:00 am Sounds like inciting a riot.
Trump invites his supporters to the Capitol to protest the election outcome. Trump winds them up with talk of you have to fight like hell. Trump tells his supporters to march to the Capitol to protest the vote certification. Trump tells his republican Congressmen and Senators not to certify the Electoral Vote.

And you think this is only inciting a riot and not coordination? Trump's actions clearly shows he was directing involved from the start to the end of the insurrection.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by Drak »

Frank Figliuzzi - Verified @FrankFigliuzzi1
The National Archives received forged certificates declaring Trump the winner in both Arizona and Michigan: Jan. 6 panel ramps up investigation into Trump's state-level pressure - POLITICO


Forging election certificates is not only serious fraud, it’s just more evidence of a blatant coup attempt.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/1 ... ion-526752
As Trump's team pushed its discredited voter fraud narrative, the National Archives received forged certificates of ascertainment declaring him and then-Vice President Mike Pence the winners of both Michigan and Arizona and their electors after the 2020 election. Public records requests show the secretaries of state for those states sent those certificates to the Jan. 6 panel, along with correspondence between the National Archives and state officials about the documents.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by marindem01 »

Drak wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:02 pm Frank Figliuzzi - Verified @FrankFigliuzzi1
The National Archives received forged certificates declaring Trump the winner in both Arizona and Michigan: Jan. 6 panel ramps up investigation into Trump's state-level pressure - POLITICO


Forging election certificates is not only serious fraud, it’s just more evidence of a blatant coup attempt.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/1 ... ion-526752
Glenn and the other Cons will call this fake news.

Never mind the outright REPUBLICAN ELECTION FRAUD.

Election Fraud only matters when Democrats are involved.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by Libertas »

Drak wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:02 pm Frank Figliuzzi - Verified @FrankFigliuzzi1
The National Archives received forged certificates declaring Trump the winner in both Arizona and Michigan: Jan. 6 panel ramps up investigation into Trump's state-level pressure - POLITICO


Forging election certificates is not only serious fraud, it’s just more evidence of a blatant coup attempt.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/1 ... ion-526752
Was just gonna post.

GOP need to be called traitors, to their faces, daily.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by Number6 »

marindem01 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:31 pm Glenn and the other Cons will call this fake news.

Never mind the outright REPUBLICAN ELECTION FRAUD.

Election Fraud only matters when Democrats are involved.
Michigan republican national committeewoman Kathy Berden sent to the Senate a forged election document signed by 16 republicans saying Trump won Michigan. When asked why the group sent it she answered "I can't comment on anything like that. That was a long time ago."

For all you "law-and-order" republicans out there, I expect, but won't hold my breath, you to come out and say this should be investigated and if factual there should be criminal charges file at her and her group.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by marindem01 »

Number6 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:11 pm Michigan republican national committeewoman Kathy Berden sent to the Senate a forged election document signed by 16 republicans saying Trump won Michigan. When asked why the group sent it she answered "I can't comment on anything like that. That was a long time ago."

For all you "law-and-order" republicans out there, I expect, but won't hold my breath, you to come out and say this should be investigated and if factual there should be criminal charges file at her and her group.
A year ago is not the distant past. This is Election Fraud. Republican Election Fraud, but still Election Fraud.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by Libertas »

If Mike Pence wants to be a patriot...


https://politicalwire.com/2022/01/10/pe ... january-6/


Here is his chance.

“As the House select committee investigating the Jan. 6 assault on the Capitol rushes to gather evidence and conduct interviews, how far it will be able to go in holding former President Donald Trump accountable increasingly appears to hinge on one possible witness: former Vice President Mike Pence,” the New York Times reports.

“Since the committee was formed last summer, Mr. Pence’s lawyer and the panel have been talking informally about whether he would be willing to speak to investigators… But as Mr. Pence began sorting through a complex calculation about his cooperation, he indicated to the committee that he was undecided.”
Someone today, may have been Randi Rhodes or Dean Obedeiliah said that Pence didn't appear to prevent his staff from cooperating, i.e. doing the patriotic thing and this might be because Pence himself plans on cooperating. If he does there will be more than enough to indict the traitor.

When some asshole con points out nobody has been arrested or convicted, THIS IS WHY, the WITNESSES with all the evidence REFUSE to testify! In our history we only have this with one other group, Mafia.

Jim Jordan and others simply refuse to comply with subpoenas and requests to provide information to the committee. It is a new thing, we call it treason for lack of a word that we dont have for these people. Scum, is the word I like. Rachel just said our system isn't designed to have dozens of politicians refuse to be patriotic, refuse to testify. But when your party (including ALL cons on this board) supports your treason, not much we can do, the system will end, permanently.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by ProfX »

Maddow Unearths Five Fake State Documents Declaring Trump Victory in 2020 Election
https://www.thedailybeast.com/rachel-ma ... 0-election

What at first looked like a few wackos faking state documents to pretend that Donald Trump won the 2020 election is beginning to look more and more like an orchestrated campaign. Earlier this week, Politico reported that the National Archives received fake certificates of ascertainment from both Michigan and Arizona shortly after Trump’s defeat. Now, MSNBC host Rachel Maddow has gotten her hands on five forgeries—and has noted that each of them look very similar. “It wasn’t one state. It wasn’t three states where they did this. It was at least five states where we have now obtained forged documents created by Republicans,” Maddow said Tuesday night. “They sent them into the government as if they were real documents... They actually created these fake documents purporting to be the real certifications of them as electors.” The MSNBC host then noted something suspicious: “They all match, exactly. Same formatting, same font, same spacing, almost the exact same wording. All of them.”

[snip][end]

Note the points in bold -- it suggests ... coordination and planning.

BTW, the # of states doing this - first it looked like 3, then 5, the actual number may be 7.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

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ProfX wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:49 am Maddow Unearths Five Fake State Documents Declaring Trump Victory in 2020 Election
https://www.thedailybeast.com/rachel-ma ... 0-election

What at first looked like a few wackos faking state documents to pretend that Donald Trump won the 2020 election is beginning to look more and more like an orchestrated campaign. Earlier this week, Politico reported that the National Archives received fake certificates of ascertainment from both Michigan and Arizona shortly after Trump’s defeat. Now, MSNBC host Rachel Maddow has gotten her hands on five forgeries—and has noted that each of them look very similar. “It wasn’t one state. It wasn’t three states where they did this. It was at least five states where we have now obtained forged documents created by Republicans,” Maddow said Tuesday night. “They sent them into the government as if they were real documents... They actually created these fake documents purporting to be the real certifications of them as electors.” The MSNBC host then noted something suspicious: “They all match, exactly. Same formatting, same font, same spacing, almost the exact same wording. All of them.”

[snip][end]

Note the points in bold -- it suggests ... coordination and planning.

BTW, the # of states doing this - first it looked like 3, then 5, the actual number may be 7.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by marindem01 »

Drak wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:31 amJFC
Big Time JFC. Elected Officials in FIVE FUCKING STATES WORKED TO THWART THE NOVEMBER ELECTION!!!!!

Put these fuckers in prison.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by ZoWie »

Yup, Maddow dropped the big one last night.

Fake elector certifications were sent to the relevant government and Congressional agencies, plus the National Archives.

Same document template used by 5 states. In most of the cases, not even all that great a forgery. It didn't match official stationery used by states on the real thing. Fake document, fake notarization on one of them, and in some cases different electors than the ones proposed on the original official (losing) Republican party elector slate. One Republican elector actually contacted MSNBC, said he had demanded that his name not be used in election fraud, so they found someone else to sign.

Other states possibly involved. Template circulated on Internet, didn't give source. They guy running it might have been the same one drumpf tried to install as AG right before 1/6.

Common sense indicates that it came straight from the drumpf/GOP war room.

Got the goods on them.

Someone's going DOWN.

Book 'em, Dan'o.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by Drak »

18 U.S. Code § 595 makes it a federal crime if any federal, state or local government employee uses “official authority for the purpose of interfering with, or affecting, the nomination or the election of any candidate for the office of President.”
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by ZoWie »

The forgeries could have come from self-appointed party committees in the respective states themselves, not election officials. There's probably a statute or two about that too.

Since then, legislatures have of course been churning out new laws changing the election systems in many of these states back to Jim Crow by any other name. They're going Stalinist: it's not the voters that elect someone, it's the people who count the votes, as Josef once said. Throw in a little wealth qualification by any other name, making it impossible for working people to get to the polls. How very eighteenth century.

All this sound and fury to limit the suffrage back to the 1930s, while the worst pandemic in US history rages on and some insane percentage of the population goes happily around ignoring every single public health instruction aimed at lessening the impact.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

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ZoWie wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:06 pm The forgeries could have come from self-appointed party committees in the respective states themselves, not election officials. There's probably a statute or two about that too.
It doesn't matter where them came from since it wasn't the states' Secretary of States who produced them. They are forgeries and whomever produced, signed, and/or submitted them should be arrested, charged, and tried for do this.
Since then, legislatures have of course been churning out new laws changing the election systems in many of these states back to Jim Crow by any other name. They're going Stalinist: it's not the voters that elect someone, it's the people who count the votes, as Josef once said.
And when the republicans are passing laws in their states allowing them to determine what the "will of the people" is. It will be interesting to see if in any election they pull the string and overturn the election results and how people will react.
All this sound and fury to limit the suffrage back to the 1930s, while the worst pandemic in US history rages on and some insane percentage of the population goes happily around ignoring every single public health instruction aimed at lessening the impact.
As Voltaire said "Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." These people are too gullible and too stupid to see how they're being used. They have authoritarian personalities in which they want a "strong-man" in power and they want to be told what to believe and what to do. Currently, they scream about their freedoms being taken away but what they're advocating for is for a "strong-man" to come in and take away their freedoms. One thing about a "strong-man" is they tend to evolve into dictators. The first thing dictators do when they take power is eliminate anyone opposed to them. Once that's done, they then purge their own supporters whom they don't believe aren't loyal enough. While they authoritarian supporters of the "strong-man" will voice their need to use their Second Amendment rights (guns) to evoke change the first thing the "strong-man" dictator does is to take away peoples' guns.

Like I said, these people are gullible and stupid.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by Libertas »

ZoWie wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:06 pm The forgeries could have come from self-appointed party committees in the respective states themselves, not election officials. There's probably a statute or two about that too.

Since then, legislatures have of course been churning out new laws changing the election systems in many of these states back to Jim Crow by any other name. They're going Stalinist: it's not the voters that elect someone, it's the people who count the votes, as Josef once said. Throw in a little wealth qualification by any other name, making it impossible for working people to get to the polls. How very eighteenth century.

All this sound and fury to limit the suffrage back to the 1930s, while the worst pandemic in US history rages on and some insane percentage of the population goes happily around ignoring every single public health instruction aimed at lessening the impact.
Any indictment of these traitors, including trump, requires people to tell the truth about what happened. Who signed what, who said to sign what.

Unlike most cases in the past, most trumpers whether they are close to the traitor or on the street, seem willing to NOT testify. Or assume they can refuse to. I want all this to come to the proper outcome that is obvious, I just dont think this justice system has EVER dealt with these type of people before.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by carmenjonze »

Number6 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:24 pm As Voltaire said "Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Yes but you better be civil with them, or else!

Civility!!!
Like I said, these people are gullible and stupid.
That's not very civil!!!
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by JoeMemphis »

ProfX wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:29 am This is what I think Trump thought would happen.

The insurrectionists would disrupt the EC affirming vote in Congress. I think the 2nd part of the "plan" was that with things disrupted and thrown into chaos, enough of "his people" in Congress would be able to funk things up by rejecting the EC/EV results from various states, approving so-called "alternative electors" and overturn the election. Please note what Peter Navarro openly discussed and admitted in an interview - it's all there.

That the 2nd part of the plan failed because it was poorly planned and/or executed like so much in Trumplandia, doesn't mean as a plan it didn't exist, and again, if one takes blinders off and looks at known evidence at this point, it's clear in "war rooms" that was being discussed prior to 1/6.
I'm not sure trump thinks all that far ahead. He ran the government the way he ran Trump enterprises. I think he drives on chaos. But government should run on chaos. I would say the same holds true for most businesses and households. The trouble with running on chaos is that there is a very real risk that if you could kill the very thing you want most.

I have heard the whole "alternate elector" theory. I don'y buy it but some people do. The problem with the thought that a state legislation could substitute its will in place of the voters in a state assumes that the voters and the other party will stand by and let it happen. That's just naive and its dangerous. I miss the days when elections were decided on Election Day and the loser conceded and congratulated the victor. I hope that its still possible but I fear that no matter who wins or who loses every election will have allegations of irregularities.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by Number6 »

carmenjonze wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:05 pm Yes but you better be civil with them, or else!

Civility!!!
If you disagree with them but you're polite and nice to them they'll beat the shit out of you and claim they are the ones being civil.

That's not very civil!!!
That's their problem.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by carmenjonze »

Number6 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:58 pm If you disagree with them but you're polite and nice to them they'll beat the shit out of you and claim they are the ones being civil.
Hey!

You're not letting God's Favorites, who in their benevolent mighty-white grace and mercy are permitting you to live, smack you around!

That's not very civil!!!
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by ProfX »

JoeMemphis wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:27 pm The problem with the thought that a state legislation could substitute its will in place of the voters in a state assumes that the voters and the other party will stand by and let it happen.
So Joe: here's the problem. We can debate how many angels danced on the head of a pin in 2020, in the meantime:

Republican Legislators Curb Authority of County, State Election Officials
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... -officials

Republican lawmakers this year passed an unprecedented bevy of bills targeting the authority of state and local election officials, a power grab that might allow partisan legislators to overturn future election results by claiming there was fraud.

GOP legislators in at least 14 states have enacted 23 new laws that empower state officials to take control of county election boards, strip secretaries of state of their executive authority, or make local election officials criminally or financially liable for even technical errors, according to Protect Democracy, a left-leaning Washington, D.C.-based voting rights nonprofit.

[snip]

“We’re seeing a trend where highly partisan state legislators are seeking to disrupt the way that elections have been run in this country for decades,” said Jessica Marsden, an attorney for Protect Democracy. “We don’t think you can run a fair election in those circumstances. It’s an incredibly serious threat to our democracy.”

[snip]

These new measures come as Republican legislators in at least 18 states have enacted 30 new laws that curb early and mail-in voting, add new voter ID requirements and limit the use of ballot drop boxes, according to a July count by the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law.

“You can’t ignore the context in which these bills are being passed,” said Derek Tisler, a democracy fellow at the Brennan Center. “This is a bad faith pressure campaign. I don’t think anyone disagrees that election officials should follow the law, but these overly punitive laws may chill election officials from performing their jobs.”

[snip]

The Brennan Center and the Bipartisan Policy Center, a D.C.-based think tank, last month released a report that found 1 in 3 election officials feel unsafe because of their jobs. The U.S. Department of Justice last month launched a task force centered on threats to election officials.

[snip][end]

I don't care if Trump continues to lie about the 2020 election. He's one whining loser.

What GOPers are doing in states across the country to, potentially, screw over the 2022 elections, is why we need voting rights legislation.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by gounion »

Joe’s response will be “I’m not in those states, and don’t know anything about them, so therefore I can’t make any comment”.

Joe always pleads ignorance.
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Re: Just a "riot?" No planning or coordination?

Post by Drak »

Republicans make NO sense. If they're NOT suppressing or rigging elections, as they claim, then they shouldn't have a problem passing the voting rights bill. Right? In the past, they always have.
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