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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:58 pm 
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An annoying deflection away from the math-based reality that underlies the election results of any representative democracy.


The way it's done in America just happens to be about as illegitimate and unfair as it can get.


MAGA!

Truth. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:59 pm 
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This board became little more than LW trolls...


Thus spaketh the troll who blithely tosses around the label of "troll" at anybody who has the audacity to disagree with his superior intellect.

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White vote 58% Trump...6 of 10 white Americans are scum. Officially ashamed of my race.


Last edited by Ike Bana on Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:02 pm 
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The ball is in your court.


Actually the ball is not in my court. You haven't hit a ball in for a long time.

But it's my fault Joe. I should not have persisted. I just had no idea you could be quite so patronizing. Live and learn.

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White vote 58% Trump...6 of 10 white Americans are scum. Officially ashamed of my race.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:54 pm 
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Worst analogy ever.

I guess my analogy fits your warped sense of logic. Failure to support any candidate equals support for a candidate. I get your disappointed in the result and you want to blame somebody. I didn't get what I wanted either but I am not looking for someone to blame.

You can't always get what you want. Sir Mick Jagger I believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:14 pm 
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An annoying deflection away from the math-based reality that underlies the election results of any representative democracy.


The way it's done in America just happens to be about as illegitimate and unfair as it can get.


MAGA!


But it's the way things have been done since the founding. Both parties were well aware of the rules and both parties developed strategies taking those rules into account. Nobody complained when there was the blue wall of northern states that heavily favored Democrats. I remember the posts where everyone was saying how Trump could not possibly win because the deck was heavily stacked in Hillary's favor because the block of northern and midwestern states and California that voted historically for Democrats and voted for Obama in the previous two elections were a lock for Hillary. I believed she had it locked up myself. All she had to do was to win those states and they were in the bag for her or easily within her reach. But for some reason she didn't make the connection in three or four critical states and her strategy failed. If the election were decided by the popular vote then the strategies and the candidates might have been totally different. But that is not how we run our elections. It is nothing new. The rules haven't changed.

As I said before. I didn't think then nor do I think now that it was either a rejection of liberal or progressive ideas or an movement or acceptance of conservative ideas. I think it was a rejection of establishment politics and a frustration within the electorate with the system that seems to work for no one coupled with two candidates that had tons of personal and professional baggage. I'm hoping it was an anomoly but maybe it is the new normal.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:16 pm 
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But it's the way things have been done since the founding.


Image


Anyway, in an effort to limit the paraphrasis, we can say the country is a smidgen less than half full of assholes. Some of us already knew it, but I suppose it took this election to prove it.

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White vote 58% Trump...6 of 10 white Americans are scum. Officially ashamed of my race.


Last edited by Ike Bana on Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:30 pm 
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But it's the way things have been done since the founding. Both parties were well aware of the rules and both parties developed strategies taking those rules into account. Nobody complained when there was the blue wall of northern states that heavily favored Democrats. I remember the posts where everyone was saying how Trump could not possibly win because the deck was heavily stacked in Hillary's favor because the block of northern and midwestern states and California that voted historically for Democrats and voted for Obama in the previous two elections were a lock for Hillary. I believed she had it locked up myself. All she had to do was to win those states and they were in the bag for her or easily within her reach. But for some reason she didn't make the connection in three or four critical states and her strategy failed. If the election were decided by the popular vote then the strategies and the candidates might have been totally different. But that is not how we run our elections. It is nothing new. The rules haven't changed.

As I said before. I didn't think then nor do I think now that it was either a rejection of liberal or progressive ideas or an movement or acceptance of conservative ideas. I think it was a rejection of establishment politics and a frustration within the electorate with the system that seems to work for no one coupled with two candidates that had tons of personal and professional baggage. I'm hoping it was an anomoly but maybe it is the new normal.

Joe, I think there is AT THE LEAST a possibility that she DID win those states. I am NOT as sanguine as you that our system wasn't hacked by the Russians. To me, it is strange that everything went as the polls showed except certain states that Trump had to have.

As far as the baggage, Joe, let's be honest. Nobody sane would put themselves or their family through what you have to do to run for President. If you volunteer for such a thing, you probably need to have your head checked, eh?


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:53 pm 
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Ike,

I haven't defended Trump.


Actually you are...right here....

I don't know that it is unconstitutional. The President has his right to opinion and free speech like every other citizen. He hasn't ordered the NFL to do anything.


And it's becoming habitual. And shit like, "I know you don't like Trump.", coming out of you. Are you serious? I "don't like" trump? I've been saying he's a malignant sociopath for 8 months. You minimize everything about him. He's an "idiot". Really? An idiot?

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White vote 58% Trump...6 of 10 white Americans are scum. Officially ashamed of my race.


Last edited by Ike Bana on Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:57 pm 
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Actually the ball is not in my court. You haven't hit a ball in for a long time.

But it's my fault Joe. I should not have persisted. I just had no idea you could be quite so patronizing. Live and learn.


Not patronizing Ike. I'm no better than anyone here and have never thought that way. But I am not less than anyone here either. I am not always right and I am not always wrong. I tried to be empathetic after the election. I realized that many folks here would be extremely disappointed in the election. I thought that pointing out that it wasn't necessarily the message but possibly the messenger to blame for the loss was the truth. I truly believe this election was more about the personality of the candidates and less about the issues. Perhaps I was wrong. If you think that is patronizing then you misread me. You and I just have a genuine difference of opinion. So I can lie to you and tell you what you would like to hear from me or I can tell you what I really think. I always thought that you expected honesty and respect and that is what I have always tried to deliver. I really don't know how to do things differently.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:32 pm 
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Joe, I think there is AT THE LEAST a possibility that she DID win those states. I am NOT as sanguine as you that our system wasn't hacked by the Russians. To me, it is strange that everything went as the polls showed except certain states that Trump had to have.

As far as the baggage, Joe, let's be honest. Nobody sane would put themselves or their family through what you have to do to run for President. If you volunteer for such a thing, you probably need to have your head checked, eh?


GoU

I guess there is a possibility. But what does that mean and where do we go from here? I am all for tightening controls at the polls and doing what we can to prevent or expose interference by foreign countries in our elections. But the 2016 election is over and there are no mulligans. You can't unring that bell. There is an investigation by Mueller in progress that is looking into charges of collusion. If proof is found that Trump colluded or obstructed justice then I would imagine you will see impeachment proceedings and I would fully support such a move. But IMO you don't fire a President one year into his term because he is an ass or unpopular. I don't like him anymore than many people here. I am just not ready to completely upset our system of government because the country elected an asshole to the top job. I think such a move at this point in time could tear this country apart. And just so we are crystal clear on this. I do think the Republicans will pay dearly for nominating the man and you will not hear me bitch and moan about that because that is also how the system works in this country. Obama was right in that regard. Elections do have consequences.

As far as the Clintons and baggage. Not everybody sees them like you do either now or before the election. You are a progressive and you think she was a decent candidate. I am a conservative who has been familiar with Bill and Hillary Clinton since their days in Arkansas. I didn't trust her or Bill and didn't want to see another Clinton in the White House. In addition, I couldn't see myself supporting much of what she was promoting during the campaign. So as a Conservative there was not much there for me to support. I didn't feel Trump would make a good POTUS because I didn't think he had the temperament or the discipline to do the job. I wasn't wrong in that regard. I refused to pull the lever for him because I would have be embarrassed to tell people I voted for the asshole and why cast a vote you would be ashamed of.

So I made a decision. I didn't cast a vote for President and I won't sit back in judgement on those folks who did. I don't question the why. You can do so if you want but I don't see the upside of condemning half the people in the country because of their pick in the election. What good does it do? I can understand why good people voted for her either because they supported her or because they didn't want Trump in the WH. I can also understand why good people voted for him because they hoped he would break the logjam in DC or because they couldn't bring themselves to support her.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:21 pm 
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I guess my analogy fits your warped sense of logic. Failure to support any candidate equals support for a candidate. I get your disappointed in the result and you want to blame somebody. I didn't get what I wanted either but I am not looking for someone to blame.

You can't always get what you want. Sir Mick Jagger I believe.

No, but this isn't a baseball game. We're talking about the very future of the Republic. I'm beginning to gather that somehow, in your mind, Trump isn't "that" bad. That he's just an annoyance, a bad player but basically harmless, so playing fucking games with your vote is not going to hurt anything.

Voting, just like being an actual politician is a strategy, it's not just "I don't like him or her, so I'll vote for Sydney Schmaltz, and make some kind of noise--I'll show "THEM!" that I can be self-satisfied that I exercised my FREEDOM--even if it means the end of freedom.

Bullshit.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:24 pm 
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But it's the way things have been done since the founding.


"The way things have always been done" is not what we are discussing here.


For someone who does the sort of work you do (accounting, right?), I figure this would all be rather obvious.


Here's how it works in America:

Not casting a vote for either of the two candidates most likely to win is equivalent to casting some fraction of a vote for the winning candidate, no matter which of the two main parties they come from.


Hence, the responses you are receiving here at this time.


Nobody cares that you voted for some sort of ethical position. If that were the case, then I'd have probably written in Bernie Sanders name, at least for VP, or some such nonsense.


This isn't about ethics anymore. It is about what sort of insane stuff is really gonna happen over the next several years due to folks like yourself who helped elect Trump as president and Pence as vice-president.


Well done! Thank you so much for helping make America great again.


MAGA!


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:32 pm 
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GoU

I guess there is a possibility. But what does that mean and where do we go from here? I am all for tightening controls at the polls and doing what we can to prevent or expose interference by foreign countries in our elections. But the 2016 election is over and there are no mulligans. You can't unring that bell. There is an investigation by Mueller in progress that is looking into charges of collusion. If proof is found that Trump colluded or obstructed justice then I would imagine you will see impeachment proceedings and I would fully support such a move. But IMO you don't fire a President one year into his term because he is an ass or unpopular. I don't like him anymore than many people here. I am just not ready to completely upset our system of government because the country elected an asshole to the top job. I think such a move at this point in time could tear this country apart. And just so we are crystal clear on this. I do think the Republicans will pay dearly for nominating the man and you will not hear me bitch and moan about that because that is also how the system works in this country. Obama was right in that regard. Elections do have consequences.

As far as the Clintons and baggage. Not everybody sees them like you do either now or before the election. You are a progressive and you think she was a decent candidate. I am a conservative who has been familiar with Bill and Hillary Clinton since their days in Arkansas. I didn't trust her or Bill and didn't want to see another Clinton in the White House. In addition, I couldn't see myself supporting much of what she was promoting during the campaign. So as a Conservative there was not much there for me to support. I didn't feel Trump would make a good POTUS because I didn't think he had the temperament or the discipline to do the job. I wasn't wrong in that regard. I refused to pull the lever for him because I would have be embarrassed to tell people I voted for the asshole and why cast a vote you would be ashamed of.

So I made a decision. I didn't cast a vote for President and I won't sit back in judgement on those folks who did. I don't question the why. You can do so if you want but I don't see the upside of condemning half the people in the country because of their pick in the election. What good does it do? I can understand why good people voted for her either because they supported her or because they didn't want Trump in the WH. I can also understand why good people voted for him because they hoped he would break the logjam in DC or because they couldn't bring themselves to support her.

I don't condemn them. Sadly, there are a lot of people that buy what the scammers sell. The strongman with all the answers is a much easier sell than someone that tells you truths that you don't want to hear. I'm not saying Clinton was the most honest politician, but she wasn't saying she would immediately provide every man, woman and child in America with fantastic health care at no cost to anyone.

So, you thought Clinton was a bad person. Thing is, you also say the same thing about Obama, and I'm sorry, that simply doesn't hold up. While he's still a politician, he was intelligent and thoughtful, and tried to be a good leader for everyone.

So, to me, it would seem your view would be the same of any Democrat, even if it were Jesus himself.

To me, of Obama you could say, I don't like his political views, but he is a decent man that upheld the office well.

Heck, I have no use for Reagan's politics, but he was at his finest when the Challenger blew up. I got home from work just in time to hear his address to the nation, which was just what we needed then.

I'll tell you, as much as I dislike Reagan, I think he would denounce everything the Republicans are about today.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:59 pm 
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No, but this isn't a baseball game. We're talking about the very future of the Republic. I'm beginning to gather that somehow, in your mind, Trump isn't "that" bad. That he's just an annoyance, a bad player but basically harmless, so playing fucking games with your vote is not going to hurt anything.

Voting, just like being an actual politician is a strategy, it's not just "I don't like him or her, so I'll vote for Sydney Schmaltz, and make some kind of noise--I'll show "THEM!" that I can be self-satisfied that I exercised my FREEDOM--even if it means the end of freedom.

Bullshit.


No games Roy. No hidden agenda. Not showing anybody anything. Nobody gives a shit but me who I voted for. A lot of folks who voted for Obama didn't vote for Hillary. If you candidate was as good as you claim and if this election was about the survival of the republic, whose job and whose responsibility is it to get that message out? And by the way, I don't think I have ever seen an election where one party or the other didn't claim that the future of the Republic was at stake or that "this election is the most important election in our lifetime". And yet we are still here and we manage to survive in spite of it all. Maybe people and the nation isn't as fragile as you make it out to be? As a matter of principle I am not going to vote for or support someone I do not support. I don't recommend hiring people to lead an organization when you have serious questions about their fitness for the job. You operate under the assumption that the country is all about the President or about the government. I happen to believe that the country is about the people and what we think and what we do is more important the government or the President. And are more resilient or resourceful. We have managed to survive challenge after challenge for 250+ years; good years and bad years, good leaders and bad leaders. So I am not so quick to push the panic button as you or dive into an underground shelter.

Hillary lost a lot of moderate and independent votes. You want to appeal to those voters next time maybe you should spend a little time figuring out what appeals to them instead of blaming them for not accepting the policies or choices that you deem are in their best interest. People prefer to vote for something and not merely against the other guy. That is what the over riding theme of the 2016 campaign. It was either I am not Trump or I am not Hillary. It was the most negative campaign I have seen in my lifetime. You are right. It was all bullshit.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:02 pm 
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No games Roy. No hidden agenda. Not showing anybody anything. Nobody gives a shit but me who I voted for. A lot of folks who voted for Obama didn't vote for Hillary. If you candidate was as good as you claim and if this election was about the survival of the republic, whose job and whose responsibility is it to get that message out? And by the way, I don't think I have ever seen an election where one party or the other didn't claim that the future of the Republic was at stake or that "this election is the most important election in our lifetime". And yet we are still here and we manage to survive in spite of it all. Maybe people and the nation isn't as fragile as you make it out to be? As a matter of principle I am not going to vote for or support someone I do not support. I don't recommend hiring people to lead an organization when you have serious questions about their fitness for the job. You operate under the assumption that the country is all about the President or about the government. I happen to believe that the country is about the people and what we think and what we do is more important the government or the President. And are more resilient or resourceful. We have managed to survive challenge after challenge for 250+ years; good years and bad years, good leaders and bad leaders. So I am not so quick to push the panic button as you or dive into an underground shelter.

Hillary lost a lot of moderate and independent votes. You want to appeal to those voters next time maybe you should spend a little time figuring out what appeals to them instead of blaming them for not accepting the policies or choices that you deem are in their best interest. People prefer to vote for something and not merely against the other guy. That is what the over riding theme of the 2016 campaign. It was either I am not Trump or I am not Hillary. It was the most negative campaign I have seen in my lifetime. You are right. It was all bullshit.

It isn't about how great Hillary is. It's ALL about how bad Trump is--and how that bad was obvious even before the primaries. Personally, I'd like a President that we don't have to "survive."

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:21 pm 
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I don't condemn them. Sadly, there are a lot of people that buy what the scammers sell. The strongman with all the answers is a much easier sell than someone that tells you truths that you don't want to hear. I'm not saying Clinton was the most honest politician, but she wasn't saying she would immediately provide every man, woman and child in America with fantastic health care at no cost to anyone.

So, you thought Clinton was a bad person. Thing is, you also say the same thing about Obama, and I'm sorry, that simply doesn't hold up. While he's still a politician, he was intelligent and thoughtful, and tried to be a good leader for everyone.

So, to me, it would seem your view would be the same of any Democrat, even if it were Jesus himself.

To me, of Obama you could say, I don't like his political views, but he is a decent man that upheld the office well.

Heck, I have no use for Reagan's politics, but he was at his finest when the Challenger blew up. I got home from work just in time to hear his address to the nation, which was just what we needed then.

I'll tell you, as much as I dislike Reagan, I think he would denounce everything the Republicans are about today.


GoU,

I don't recall ever criticizing Obama's personal character. I certainly did not agree with many of his policies but I did not think him any more or less ethical than any other politician. I will say of the Clintons, I have followed them from their time in Arkansas and I can tell you that they have left many innocent people in their wake. Not politicians but regular folks who just happened to get in their way. IMO, there is nothing they wouldn't do to advance their political careers. Nothing. I never felt that way about Carter, Reagan, Bush41, or Bush 43 or Obama. I accept that folks who get into politics for a living have to accept that sometimes they get caught in the whirlwind. But I don't accept throwing civilians under the bus to cover you ass for purely political purposes. Regular folks "who went to work everyday and played by the rules". So you want me to believe she loves babies and grandma's and cares about all the average joe's out there and I find that difficult to believe. I also think Trump would do most anything to advance himself and that he uses people without regard and discards them like so much used trash. In that respect, IMO, they are two sides of the same coin. Would she publicly shame her opponents via twitter? Probably not. Would she do it another way? Probably so. Sorry but I do not have any confidence in her honesty or integrity. It just isn't there for me. Telling me how bad Trump is doesn't change that fact for me. And I am not the only voter who felt that way. We are not all assholes.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:24 pm 
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WTF? You've been stalking "the Clintons" for decades? Sounds like a full-time job...ever work for Ken Starr? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:28 pm 
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It isn't about how great Hillary is. It's ALL about how bad Trump is--and how that bad was obvious even before the primaries. Personally, I'd like a President that we don't have to "survive."


So maybe you should have made better choices in candidates. I certainly think the Republicans could have done better. They will pay the price for that. You should seriously question why your candidate didn't win in a landslide. She had money, she had the machine, she had an electoral college advantage. So why did she lose? She should have blown Trump away at the polls. You blame the voters so maybe you don't have to confront the possibility that what you offered as an alternative wasn't as appealing as you thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:30 pm 
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WTF? You've been stalking "the Clintons" for decades? Sounds like a full-time job...ever work for Ken Starr? :)

No Roy. Not stalking. Just paying attention. I live in Memphis and have friends in Arkansas and relatives in Little Rock who know the Clintons. So I pay attention.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:33 pm 
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No Roy. Not stalking. Just paying attention. I live in Memphis and have friends in Arkansas and relatives in Little Rock who know the Clintons. So I pay attention and don't choose to put my head up their ass.

:rw) one would hope not, but I notice you're making assertions with neither details or evidence. Makes me suspect your "paying attention" is about anecdotes from your Little Rock pals.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:54 pm 
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:rw) one would hope not, but I notice you're making assertions with neither details or evidence. Makes me suspect your "paying attention" is about anecdotes from your Little Rock pals.


If it were just "anecdotes" you might have a point. But you have to ignore a whole lot of smoke over the years to say that everything is just a coincidence. So was I sitting in the room or do I have them on video or audio? No. But I am not in a courtroom and we aren't putting anyone in jail. I am merely forming an opinion on the honesty and integrity of a candidate for the highest office of the land. So I am allowed to form an opinion based on what I think and have observed over the years. People do it everyday when they make judgements. Rarely do you have irrefutable proof. Surely a smart guy like you knows that. You totally miss the fact that people form opinions based on their perceptions of candidates. You think that because you say she is honest and trustworthy, that people ignore everything else they hear and see and observe in how she deals with issues and problems publicly. People form opinions of candidates based on any number of factors other than just the outer package. I can't tell you how many people I know who supported Obama who didn't think she was honest or ethical. Some of them voted for her anyway but others did not. IMO that was a major problem for her that dogged her throughout her campaign.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:55 am 
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True, the "why" does matter. I believe I have explained the "why" and the "how" I came to my decision both before and many times after the election. As for the consequences, elections in this country are not decided by a single vote. In this case it was decided by votes in states that typically vote Democratic historically and voted decisively for Obama in the last two elections. States that Hillary and many others (including myself) took for granted were going to be in her column in this election didn't vote as they anticipated. So who is to blame for that? Who ran the campaign? Who developed the strategy? Who controlled and compiled campaign's internal polling? You can blame an individual voter here and there all you like but individual voters weren't running Hillary's campaign or developing her state strategy or responsible for her communication strategy and messaging to make her more appealing to voters in the various swing states.

I understand we are all sitting in the same restaurant and that I choose not to order anything from the menu even though I will have some responsibility for payment of the bill. Still I don't control the menu. I didn't hire the chef nor did I shop for the groceries or prepare the food. Now if you got food poisoning, I am sorry about that but I am not responsible for other people's choices in this life.

These are charming attempts to hold others accountable besides yourself. If you didn't do all you could to prevent Donald Trump from being president then you are responsible. It doesn't matter if other people are responsible too.

I'm not sure why it is so difficult. I took responsibility for my Nader vote. I owned it throughout the Bush years. I probably didn't do everything I could have, but I sure tried to remind people of 2000. I owned it. I'm sure you saw that and chose not to listen.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:02 am 
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So maybe you should have made better choices in candidates. I certainly think the Republicans could have done better. They will pay the price for that. You should seriously question why your candidate didn't win in a landslide. She had money, she had the machine, she had an electoral college advantage. So why did she lose? She should have blown Trump away at the polls. You blame the voters so maybe you don't have to confront the possibility that what you offered as an alternative wasn't as appealing as you thought.

Really? The Democrats should have chosen a better candidate for you? The Republican? The Democrats chose the moderate wife of the moderate "free enterprise" Bill Clinton. You guys chose Trump.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:43 am 
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If it were just "anecdotes" you might have a point. But you have to ignore a whole lot of smoke over the years to say that everything is just a coincidence. So was I sitting in the room or do I have them on video or audio? No. But I am not in a courtroom and we aren't putting anyone in jail. I am merely forming an opinion on the honesty and integrity of a candidate for the highest office of the land. So I am allowed to form an opinion based on what I think and have observed over the years. People do it everyday when they make judgements. Rarely do you have irrefutable proof. Surely a smart guy like you knows that. You totally miss the fact that people form opinions based on their perceptions of candidates. You think that because you say she is honest and trustworthy, that people ignore everything else they hear and see and observe in how she deals with issues and problems publicly. People form opinions of candidates based on any number of factors other than just the outer package. I can't tell you how many people I know who supported Obama who didn't think she was honest or ethical. Some of them voted for her anyway but others did not. IMO that was a major problem for her that dogged her throughout her campaign.

Opinions are great; we all have them; however, when we try to pretend they're facts and anyone should listen to them with nothing other than "some of my friends in another state told me so," then it's called bullshit. Smoke, btw, is also often created, and not it's not about coincidence, it's about lies and liars. Sometimes called "swiftboating."

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:02 am 
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So maybe you should have made better choices in candidates. I certainly think the Republicans could have done better. They will pay the price for that. You should seriously question why your candidate didn't win in a landslide. She had money, she had the machine, she had an electoral college advantage. So why did she lose? She should have blown Trump away at the polls. You blame the voters so maybe you don't have to confront the possibility that what you offered as an alternative wasn't as appealing as you thought.

Oh, the right wing noise machine did everything they could to throw all the mud at her they could, just like they threw mud at Obama. Building a completely false narrative, based upon nothing but lies. His choice of Minister. His place of birth. His "palling around with terrorists".

The right's noise machine is very effective. Remember when John Kerry was rated at the "Most Extreme Liberal" Senator? Then, lo and behold, four years later, Barack Obama was suddenly the "Most Extreme Liberal" Senator, suddenly displacing Kerry? What did Obama do to so quickly displace Kerry?

All the while, Senator Bernie Sanders is going, "What the fuck am I?"

Yes, yes, there is this list of all the people in Arkansas that the Clintons had murdered. They were such criminal masterminds that Ken Starr, with time, money, and huge investigative power, couldn't uncover any of it. People like Ann Coulter built their careers around making up and spreading all kinds of rumors about the Clintons. As soon as Bill was elected, they built this whole criminal history about this real estate deal call Whitewater. Now THERE was a witch hunt, especially considering the real estate deals Trump has made. Glen has regaled me about how crooked that deal was, and how the Clintons should be in prison over it, yet he insists that Trump is "a great businessman".

So, they made a special prosecutor to go after the Clintons. After all the strum and drag, the only thing they found was a blowjob.

You would THINK, after all the investigations, all the witch hunts, the only actionable wrongdoing Ken Starr found was a blowjob. You'd think that Joe would say "well, since there was nothing found by an independent investigation, Joe would say that "well, then they are innocent."

Joe, Ken Starr INVESTIGATED ALL OF THAT. Nothing beyond a blowjob was found. They were vindicated. So, why don't you accept that verdict?

Via PM, Joe and I have had a reasonably polite discussion about the IRS "scandal" and how Joe feels there should be an independent investigation. I guess my feeling is that, even if there WERE, and there was no wrongdoing found, complete vindication, Joe wouldn't believe it anyway. He would still be convinced that a crime had been committed.

Hillary Clinton was a US Senator. By REPUBLICAN accounts at the time, she was a hard-working, honest and dogged Senator who had earned the respect of everyone on both sides of the isle.

But because of a private email server, where a handful of classified emails resided, and the POSSIBILITY that they might have been hacked and fallen into Russian hands, she needed to be imprisoned.

Of course, Jared and Ivanka can have their own server, where they email the President back and forth, and it's suddenly benign and not even worthy of discussion.

Clinton lost for several reasons. One was that her campaign wasn't the best in the world, but it was beset with lie upon lie upon lie they had to constantly fight. The second was the well funded, well-oiled right-wing machine pumped out so much mud and lies it wasn't funny. Joe contends that with the Clintons that so much smoke is indicative of fire. Well, the noise machine makes smoke over anyone that runs. They would have Joe believe that the Christ was a Communist that murdered millions if he was running.

One more was Russian meddling. We know that Trump's campaign was riddled with people with deep Russian ties, and we now know there were numerous meetings with the Russians. We don't know yet just how pervasive their meddling was. But the entire Republican Party will need to account for their role in all of this. It wasn't just Trump. They have supported and enabled him. You have a lifelong mainstream conservative governor who has accepted and defended everything Trump has done for the chance to be Vice President.

The last was simple - hate sells. Trump well understood the racism and hate-fueled strategy and tactics that the Nazis used to take power. They didn't take power by force - they won an election. The racist right-wing base had to put up with a black man in the White House for eight years, and they hated it. Trump capitalized on that racist hate and inflamed the nation. Pointing out black protesters, and saying "Get them out of here - beat'em up, I'll pay your legal fees", Trump ran a campaign based upon the darkest side of humanity.

So, Joe, I don't believe you can throw all the blame on the fact that Trump is President upon Clinton. I know you want to. But the true blame MUST fall on the party that has accepted and enabled Donald Trump. It is a stain that will far surpass the stain of Richard Nixon. Deal with it.


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