America's All Volunteer Forces in Crisis?

[Number6]

The All Volunteer Force (AVF) came into existence in 1973 when the draft ended. Now, 49 years later, the AVF is having trouble attracting volunteers. The Army is only at about 40% of it's yearly recruitment goal, the Air Force is 4,000 short of its goal, and the Navy and Marines expect to meet their recruitment goals.

The active duty military has about 1.5 million personnel and those in their first terms usually make up about 40 - 60% of the force. To maintain the military, new personnel must be recruited and trained to replace those who decide to separate when their service contracts expire.

Part of the problem lies with the pool of eligible recruits decreasing "because of because of obesity, drug use, criminal records, or an inability to qualify intellectually (successfully pass the service “entrance exam”). Only 23% of the 17-24 age group qualify to serve without a wavier which is down from 29% a few years ago. With a shrinking pool of eligible candidates as well as fewer younger people wanting to join the military the military may not be able to meet its missions as they've done in the past w which will make it a national security concern.
https://thehill.com/opinion/national-se ... nd-denial/

So, what solutions are there to the problem. Some suggestions are:
Enlistment signing bonuses
Guaranteed first base of preference
Improved educational benefits
Return of the draft (including women)

Any thoughts?

[Motor City]

Sounds to me like the wealthy and corporate business folks are having a hard time getting people to work for them because the austerity they implemented over the past 40 or 50 years has gutted the incentive by stripping job security and heath care, workplace safety, wages, retirement and work life balance. Furthermore, it has destabilized the country, increasing disfunction, inequality, and interfering with all stages of development of people, families and society leaving toxic plague's of violence and suicide in its wake.

The all-volunteer military have relied on the hopelessness and lack of opportunity and cynicism that is produced by such a system getting a lot of volunteers that otherwise wouldn't volunteer and are likely trying to help preserve the conditions even though they are so unsustainable and destructive to the country. The pool of eligible recruits problem is one in the same with the austerity that they have relied upon. It's their doing and at the same time their undoing.

Possible solutions stop treating people so badly in our economic and justice systems so good things and feelings can develop and graduate into better ones. Also health care stop denying it and all the good it brings to people, families and society, and especially to people that have volunteered for service like the ones hurt in burn pits or digging through rubble of places like the world trade center.

[gounion]

The All Volunteer Force (AVF) came into existence in 1973 when the draft ended. Now, 49 years later, the AVF is having trouble attracting volunteers. The Army is only at about 40% of it's yearly recruitment goal, the Air Force is 4,000 short of its goal, and the Navy and Marines expect to meet their recruitment goals.

The active duty military has about 1.5 million personnel and those in their first terms usually make up about 40 - 60% of the force. To maintain the military, new personnel must be recruited and trained to replace those who decide to separate when their service contracts expire.

Part of the problem lies with the pool of eligible recruits decreasing "because of because of obesity, drug use, criminal records, or an inability to qualify intellectually (successfully pass the service “entrance exam”). Only 23% of the 17-24 age group qualify to serve without a wavier which is down from 29% a few years ago. With a shrinking pool of eligible candidates as well as fewer younger people wanting to join the military the military may not be able to meet its missions as they've done in the past w which will make it a national security concern.
https://thehill.com/opinion/national-se ... nd-denial/

So, what solutions are there to the problem. Some suggestions are:
Enlistment signing bonuses
Guaranteed first base of preference
Improved educational benefits
Return of the draft (including women)

Any thoughts?

Well, the best thing would be to bring back the full GI Bill. It would also be a great investment in our human infrastructure of the nation.

It seems lately much of their recruiting is skinhead and proud boys types that want to train to overthrow the government.

I remember my cousin's son joined the AF back in the late nineties as an aircraft mechanic. He was in during the aftermath wars after 9/11, and was deployed overseas, though not in combat areas. But he got out because they had him deployed in North Dakota and kept him there. He hated the cold, so said "GFY" and got out. One other thing - he was an aircraft mechanic, but upon getting out, he couldn't get a job as one. Even though you've done it in the AF, you can't get an A&P License (Airframe and Powerplant), and you have to go through years of schooling to get it. It would help if their training and experience could transfer over.

[Number6]

Sounds to me like the wealthy and corporate business folks are having a hard time getting people to work for them because the austerity they implemented over the past 40 or 50 years has gutted the incentive by stripping job security and heath care, workplace safety, wages, retirement and work life balance. Furthermore, it has destabilized the country, increasing disfunction, inequality, and interfering with all stages of development of people, families and society leaving toxic plague's of violence and suicide in its wake.

You’d think that would be a reason for people to join the military for the stability and the benefits. I’ve stated before I joined because I didn’t trust a company or a corporation to provide me a retirement income or medical benefits. My father retired as a Navy Captain after 24 years at age 48 and he didn’t work after that. He raised six kids and we never went without although we didn’t live “high on the hog” but we were very comfortable.

The all-volunteer military have relied on the hopelessness and lack of opportunity and cynicism that is produced by such a system getting a lot of volunteers that otherwise wouldn't volunteer and are likely trying to help preserve the conditions even though they are so unsustainable and destructive to the country. The pool of eligible recruits problem is one in the same with the austerity that they have relied upon. It's their doing and at the same time their undoing.

I disagree having served with hundreds of military members. Most people served because they wanted to use the GI Bill and/or to learn a skill. From my experience, very few joined out of patriotism.

Possible solutions stop treating people so badly in our economic and justice systems so good things and feelings can develop and graduate into better ones. Also health care stop denying it and all the good it brings to people, families and society, and especially to people that have volunteered for service like the ones hurt in burn pits or digging through rubble of places like the world trade center.

The way the civilian system treats people is something the military can’t do anything about. What the military can do is to provide a visible economic and justice systems for their members. Economically, pay is based upon rank and the promotion system in the military is transparent and promotion is the result of how well the individual applies themself. The justice system (UCMJ) is, IMO, superior to the civilian system because it’s harder to manipulate. I sat on a Courts Martial board for an airman charged with illegal use of a narcotic and after about two hours of heated discussion we returned a unanimous verdict. The panel (jury) consisted of five officers and two Senior NCO (I was the senior Senior NCO) and rank had no meaning in our deliberations.

[Number6]

Well, the best thing would be to bring back the full GI Bill. It would also be a great investment in our human infrastructure of the nation.

It seems lately much of their recruiting is skinhead and proud boys types that want to train to overthrow the government.

I remember my cousin's son joined the AF back in the late nineties as an aircraft mechanic. He was in during the aftermath wars after 9/11, and was deployed overseas, though not in combat areas. But he got out because they had him deployed in North Dakota and kept him there. He hated the cold, so said "GFY" and got out. One other thing - he was an aircraft mechanic, but upon getting out, he couldn't get a job as one. Even though you've done it in the AF, you can't get an A&P License (Airframe and Powerplant), and you have to go through years of schooling to get it. It would help if their training and experience could transfer over.

I served in the AF from 1975 to 2003 so I’m familiar with the AF your cousin’s son at that time. One of the things the AF encouraged was for all enlisted personnel to enroll in the Community College of the Air Force. Graduating basic training and tech school rearmed him a number of college level credits. You should also transfer any college credits you had at another college to the Community College of the Air Force to earn their degree in their career field. However, it was up to the individual to do this. BTW, I got one of my AA degrees that way.

As for being in (Minot) North Dakota, I can feel for him. There are a lot of good and bad bases and he should have applied for an overseas base to get out of there.

[Motor City]

You’d think that would be a reason for people to join the military for the stability and the benefits. I’ve stated before I joined because I didn’t trust a company or a corporation to provide me a retirement income or medical benefits. My father retired as a Navy Captain after 24 years at age 48 and he didn’t work after that. He raised six kids and we never went without although we didn’t live “high on the hog” but we were very comfortable.

Sure but the military relying on people coming from a worsening more dysfunctional destabilized society that lacks access to health care, catches up some day. Looks like that is happening now.

I disagree having served with hundreds of military members. Most people served because they wanted to use the GI Bill and/or to learn a skill. From my experience, very few joined out of patriotism.


The way the civilian system treats people is something the military can’t do anything about. What the military can do is to provide a visible economic and justice systems for their members. Economically, pay is based upon rank and the promotion system in the military is transparent and promotion is the result of how well the individual applies themself. The justice system (UCMJ) is, IMO, superior to the civilian system because it’s harder to manipulate. I sat on a Courts Martial board for an airman charged with illegal use of a narcotic and after about two hours of heated discussion we returned a unanimous verdict. The panel (jury) consisted of five officers and two Senior NCO (I was the senior Senior NCO) and rank had no meaning in our deliberations.

Military has a mammoth effect in multiples of areas to do with employment, everything from the work contracted out to the share of tax revenue it consumes and disperses also when it expands or contracts the number of recruits.


from 1986

SUBCONTRACTING A KEY ISSUE FOR LABOR

.....And a university, for example, might be able to hire a part-time instructor to teach a class or two for total labor costs of $3,000 to $5,000 a year. Total labor costs for a full-time tenured professor might run $75,000 to $100,000 a year, including wages, health and other benefits, secretarial support and other services, Mr. Belous said. Problems With Subcontracting

Yet, Mr. Belous and others said that the nation must begin thinking about the negative side of subcontracting.

He suggested that many workers who do subcontracted jobs have no loyalty to the company for which their work is destined and no stake in assuring that the work is done well.

Mr. Belous said that if subcontracting caused companies to ''have very few people minding the store,'' they might encounter problems with being able to ''make sure things get done and get done right.''

In addition, many workers who do subcontracted work receive no health or life insurance benefits, Mr. Belous and others said. If the trend toward subcontracting expands, there may be a call for legislation that mandates medical coverage being supplied by employers or government programs.

''We are starting to see a small increase in the number of people who are employed but do not have major medical coverage,'' Mr. Belous said......

[Number6]

Sure but the military relying on people coming from a worsening more dysfunctional destabilized society that lacks access to health care, catches up some day. Looks like that is happening now.

But only if they can meet the enlistment standards. They also rely mostly on people from middle- and lower-middle income. I wouldn’t want a military that had the people who served mainly from one income group.

Military has a mammoth effect in multiples of areas to do with employment, everything from the work contracted out to the share of tax revenue it consumes and disperses also when it expands or contracts the number of recruits.


from 1986

SUBCONTRACTING A KEY ISSUE FOR LABOR

Yes, the military has a mammoth effect on the economies on both the state and national level. What you article was mainly about was how companies, like GM, contracts work so they don’t have to hire,pay, and provide benefits. They’re shifting that to the contractor. The military relies an a lot of contractors not because they don’t want to hire people but because the work required in most cases isn’t something their troops and or should be doing. For example, during the Balkans Crisis, Brown and Root provided food services for us in Croatia rather than having the military do it. The military used to have it’s own military cooks, and still does, who would deploy with the troops but depending upon the circumstances they’ll most likely contract for it. This way, their billets will go towards frontline and support military forces.

[ProfX]

Robots May Replace One-Fourth Of U.S. Combat Soldiers By 2030, Says General
Be all the cyberman you can be.
https://www.popsci.com/article/technolo ... s-general/

No longer science fiction.

An autonomous robot may have already killed people – here’s how the weapons could be more destabilizing than nukes
https://theconversation.com/an-autonomo ... kes-168049

[Number6]

Robots May Replace One-Fourth Of U.S. Combat Soldiers By 2030, Says General
Be all the cyberman you can be.
https://www.popsci.com/article/technolo ... s-general/

The problems I see with this is the manpower you’ll need to maintain/fix the robots as well as the supply chain to ensure units and repair parts are available. During times of war the three most important items in the supply chain are guns, ammo, and food. I could see where tactical robots could be used on small operations but I seriously doubt they’ll replace up to one-quarter of the Army.

No longer science fiction.

An autonomous robot may have already killed people – here’s how the weapons could be more destabilizing than nukes
https://theconversation.com/an-autonomo ... kes-168049

The use of robots to kill has been around for over 70 years. During the D-Day Invasion American troops came upon small toy-like tanks and thought they were cute and played around with them. It turned out, the German’s had made them and loaded them with explosives and exploded them when the American were playing with them.

The use of drones is a somewhat example of a using a robot to kill. Look at what we’ve use to take out terrorist leaders and the Ukrainians are using small drone to hit the Russians. The problem with using robots in combat is being able to have artificial intelligence at the level where it can understand and determine the difference between friend, foe, and non-combatants.

[bradman]

oops. a bit rusty.

[gounion]

But only if they can meet the enlistment standards. They also rely mostly on people from middle- and lower-middle income. I wouldn’t want a military that had the people who served mainly from one income group.


Yes, the military has a mammoth effect on the economies on both the state and national level. What you article was mainly about was how companies, like GM, contracts work so they don’t have to hire,pay, and provide benefits. They’re shifting that to the contractor. The military relies an a lot of contractors not because they don’t want to hire people but because the work required in most cases isn’t something their troops and or should be doing. For example, during the Balkans Crisis, Brown and Root provided food services for us in Croatia rather than having the military do it. The military used to have it’s own military cooks, and still does, who would deploy with the troops but depending upon the circumstances they’ll most likely contract for it. This way, their billets will go towards frontline and support military forces.

As I'm sure you know - much of the work on our bases are done via service contract - companies that contract the work out, then hire the workforce of civilians. For instance, I don't know how the military operated decades ago, but you always saw GIs in movies peeling potatoes. We agree that's a waste of a soldier. On most stateside air bases, the majority of aircraft maintenance is done by civilians - often ex-military. It's not economical to recruit and train enough soldiers to care for ALL of our aircraft, when they can muster out in three or four years. Stateside, civilian mechanics can handle it with their years of experience.

What we MUST guard against is any move toward mercenary forces, like was used some in Iraq. We should NEVER do that for the vast majority of fighting we must do.

[bradman]

The problems I see with this is the manpower you’ll need to maintain/fix the robots as well as the supply chain to ensure units and repair parts are available. During times of war the three most important items in the supply chain are guns, ammo, and food. I could see where tactical robots could be used on small operations but I seriously doubt they’ll replace up to one-quarter of the Army.


The use of robots to kill has been around for over 70 years. During the D-Day Invasion American troops came upon small toy-like tanks and thought they were cute and played around with them. It turned out, the German’s had made them and loaded them with explosives and exploded them when the American were playing with them.

The use of drones is a somewhat example of a using a robot to kill. Look at what we’ve use to take out terrorist leaders and the Ukrainians are using small drone to hit the Russians. The problem with using robots in combat is being able to have artificial intelligence at the level where it can understand and determine the difference between friend, foe, and non-combatants.

[bold]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath_tracked_mine

The Goliath tracked mine (German: Leichter Ladungsträger Goliath, "Goliath Light Charge Carrier") was a series of two unmanned ground vehicles used by the German Army as disposable demolition vehicles during World War II. These were the electrically powered Sd.Kfz. 302 and the petrol-engine powered Sd.Kfz. 303a and 303b. They were known as "beetle tanks" by the Allies.[1]

They carried 60 or 100 kg (130 or 220 lb) of high explosives, depending on the model, and were intended to be used for multiple purposes, such as destroying tanks, disrupting dense infantry formations, and the demolition of buildings or bridges. Goliaths were single-use vehicles that were destroyed by the detonation of their warhead.

[ProfX]

The main thing I'm noting is that drones (including the one that killed al-Zawahiri) and the Goliath mines were not autonomous. They did not have AI. They were, and are, remote piloted.

This I think is the difference that makes a difference. Increasingly, we are placing robots on the battlefield that are engaged in decision making as to locating and removing targets. The thing is, unlike a human soldier, there is no ethics software.

Yeah, I don't have to invoke science fiction, to see the Pandora's box it represents. This is one of these roads humanity has gone down and I suspect generations hence we'll wonder about the road we took.

The problem with using robots in combat is being able to have artificial intelligence at the level where it can understand and determine the difference between friend, foe, and non-combatants.

We are already deploying autonomous systems that cannot do that. Or at least not to the level a human soldier could. Yet they are already on the battlefield.

I'm not saying the problem is entirely new. Landmines have been killing civilians for decades. Part of the campaign against them.

[Motor City]

As I'm sure you know - much of the work on our bases are done via service contract - companies that contract the work out, then hire the workforce of civilians. For instance, I don't know how the military operated decades ago, but you always saw GIs in movies peeling potatoes. We agree that's a waste of a soldier. On most stateside air bases, the majority of aircraft maintenance is done by civilians - often ex-military. It's not economical to recruit and train enough soldiers to care for ALL of our aircraft, when they can muster out in three or four years.

What we MUST guard against is any move toward mercenary forces, like was used some in Iraq. We should NEVER do that for the vast majority of fighting we must do.

Therein lies the problem when people are not kept working long enough to get the years of experience, or are not staffed properly to safely do it and do it well. then you have the effect of other people not being kept working at whatever it is they do like people that have children that grow up to be mechanics or neighborhoods to house them schools to develop them. A lot of that is cut off now.

[gounion]

Therein lies the problem when people are not kept working long enough to get the years of experience, or are not staffed properly to safely do it and do it well. then you have the effect of other people not being kept working at whatever it is they do like people that have children that grow up to be mechanics or neighborhoods to house them schools to develop them. A lot of that is cut off now.

I've known a lot of these mechanics. Some people don't like the regimentation of the service for their life. They don't like having a family and having to leave it or disrupt their lives and pick everyone up and move. You do it for a few years, and you're done.

And you can't force someone to enlist for life.

So, this is a good way to deal with it. First, you can keep the enlisted mechanics ready for overseas or combat duties, while the work at the stateside bases are done by civilians, most of them vets. That way, they can do their jobs, raise their families and enjoy life without the bullshit being enlisted brings.

PLUS, most of them are unionized, so they get good pay, benefits and working conditions. To me that's a win-win.

[Number6]

As I'm sure you know - much of the work on our bases are done via service contract - companies that contract the work out, then hire the workforce of civilians. For instance, I don't know how the military operated decades ago, but you always saw GIs in movies peeling potatoes. We agree that's a waste of a soldier. On most stateside air bases, the majority of aircraft maintenance is done by civilians - often ex-military. It's not economical to recruit and train enough soldiers to care for ALL of our aircraft, when they can muster out in three or four years. Stateside, civilian mechanics can handle it with their years of experience.

Much of what you saw of the military troops doing back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, like peeling potatoes to policing (cleanup) the base are menial tasks now contracted out so troops and get back to the jobs as well as training.

As for aircraft maintenance, that’s a mixed bag. At most bases, aircraft maintenance is done by the troops because they’ve been trained to do those jobs and their positions means they’re subject to deployment which most civilian aircraft maintenance workers aren’t. In other bases, such as major maintenance facilities the work is done by contractors who have more extensive experience than the troops. At North Island Naval Air Station, they provide major maintenance, rework, and upgrades/ on aircraft for the Navy and Air Force. I have a friend who was in aircraft maintenance while in the Navy and now works at North island doing much of the same work. It’s strange because when the bids went out for the maintenance contract the Navy maintenance division bided on the contract and in the end won. The division employees are GS employees and receive the same pay and benefits as other GS employees.

What we MUST guard against is any move toward mercenary forces, like was used some in Iraq. We should NEVER do that for the vast majority of fighting we must do.

The only time we need mercenaries is for when the US needs to take short-term military action in which they don’t want to claim credit for. At no time, should mercenaries be considered part of the military and their use should be rarely used.

[Motor City]

I've known a lot of these mechanics. Some people don't like the regimentation of the service for their life. They don't like having a family and having to leave it or disrupt their lives and pick everyone up and move. You do it for a few years, and you're done.

And you can't force someone to enlist for life.

So, this is a good way to deal with it. First, you can keep the enlisted mechanics ready for overseas or combat duties, while the work at the stateside bases are done by civilians, most of them vets. That way, they can do their jobs, raise their families and enjoy life without the bullshit being enlisted brings.

PLUS, most of them are unionized, so they get good pay, benefits and working conditions. To me that's a win-win.

But you dont have mechanics to like or not like regimentation in the first place now, they arent there anymore because the society that housed and developed them is breaking down daily. There is not enough of the long term social infrastructure work being done to support a renewal because the relations are so short, unequal, and corrupted.

It would be like stopping your crops from growing but still expecting a harvest at the end of the season. It wont happen that way. Big business and corporations the military can divorce themselves from the relations with employees for a few generations but cant divorce themselves or society from the broken society it results in.

FBI, Wixom police question company officials about Huron River chemical release

The Michigan Department of Environment, Great Lakes and Energy, in a violation notice to Tribar issued Tuesday, asked company officials to answer why their data showed a plant operator apparently overrode alarms 460 times in a less than three-hour period on the evening of July 29. About 10,000 gallons of liquids containing hexavalent chromium were sent from a large, on-site storage tank to the Wixom wastewater treatment plant......

Police charge suspect arrested in General Motors' Orion Assembly plant death

Robertson worked as a cleaner at the plant for seven months, employed as a temporary worker "hired by another third party," GM plant spokesman Tom Wickham told the Free Press.

Authorities charged a 48-year-old man with open murder Friday, according to a news release from the Oakland County Sheriff's Department. The suspect, who faces life in prison if convicted, is scheduled to be arraigned Saturday......

......Meanwhile, GM restarted production at about 6 a.m. Friday at Orion, where it builds the Chevrolet Bolt and Chevrolet Bolt EUV. But the slaying has left the plant's 1,200 workers to process the fact that they are returning to a crime scene.

"Leaders conducted face-to-face employee meetings to talk about the incident and share what employee services are available for them," Wickham told the Free Press in a text. "Production restarted, but employees will have opportunities to meet with counselors throughout the day."

what happens to a few affects the many and visa versa

[Motor City]

But you dont have mechanics to like or not like regimentation in the first place now, they arent there anymore because the society that housed and developed them is breaking down daily. There is not enough of the long term social infrastructure work being done to support a renewal because the relations are so short, unequal, and corrupted.

It would be like stopping your crops from growing but still expecting a harvest at the end of the season. It wont happen that way. Big business and corporations the military can divorce themselves from the relations with employees for a few generations but cant divorce themselves or society from the broken society it results in.

FBI, Wixom police question company officials about Huron River chemical release



Police charge suspect arrested in General Motors' Orion Assembly plant death



what happens to a few affects the many and visa versa

So one employee doing work at General motors plant is living out of a van another cant afford the cost of his funeral

48-year-old man arraigned on murder charge in slaying of coworker at GM's Orion plant

A 48-year-old man was arraigned on a charge of open murder Saturday in connection with Thursday’s fatal assault of a coworker at the General Motors assembly plant in Orion Township.

Astrit Gjon Bushi, who is from Albania and was believed to be living out of his van, is being held without bond in the Oakland County Jail, according to a press release from the Oakland County Sheriff's Office......

.........Robertson's family started a GoFundMe campaign to pay for funeral expenses. As of Friday evening, $5,562 was raised of a $7,000 goal.

"On August 11th my sister, Collette Robertson, lost her husband, Greg Robertson, after an altercation with a coworker at the GM Orion Plant in Lake Orion where he worked," the organizer, Sherry Gilchrist-Reagan, wrote in the post. "Unfortunately, Greg did not have a benefits package to help Collette give him a proper service. Collette would like to have a small service where she and others might have a chance to honor Greg and say goodbye. We also hope to be able to respect Greg’s wishes and give him a proper burial."............

The two men worked for a cleaning service GM contracted with. They were working in a dock area of the plant at 455 Giddings Road in Orion Township when the incident occurred. They were not GM employees.

meanwhile

GM posts record earnings despite chip shortage