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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:00 pm 
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From the beginning of the tread:
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There's an interesting Gnostic Gospel were Jesus' disciples attack Mary Magdalene. Now, it is true. In the Gnostic Gospels, she often gets top billing. But anyway, Jesus' response to their attack is to leave Mary alone, because she can be the equal of the male disciples, she merely needs to make herself male. Yes, that's his answer.


I had taken this to be more of a judgement on those who could not hear the word of god if it came from a woman's mouth than anything else. Just shows how interpretation is in the eye of the beholder.

As I understood it, the female was the first gift god gave to man. I see how the gifts of god are treated by those who care to control my life and living.

It is nice that people of faith do good things, but is that because of or in spite of their faith?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:18 pm 
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From the beginning of the tread:


I had taken this to be more of a judgement on those who could not hear the word of god if it came from a woman's mouth than anything else. Just shows how interpretation is in the eye of the beholder.

As I understood it, the female was the first gift god gave to man. I see how the gifts of god are treated by those who care to control my life and living.

It is nice that people of faith do good things, but is that because of or in spite of their faith?

The religious right don't have the only claim to "faith." There's a tradition that gained more traction in Canada than it did in the states called the Social Gospel.
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The Social Gospel was a Protestant movement that was most prominent in the early 20th century United States and Canada. The movement applied Christian ethics to social problems, especially issues of social justice such as economic inequality, poverty, alcoholism, crime, racial tensions, slums, unclean environment, child labor, inadequate labor unions, poor schools, and the danger of war. Theologically, the Social Gospellers sought to operationalize the Lord's Prayer (Matthew 6:10): "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."[1] They typically were post-millennialist; that is, they believed the Second Coming could not happen until humankind rid itself of social evils by human effort.[2] The Social Gospel was more popular among clergy than laity.[3] Its leaders were predominantly associated with the liberal wing of the Progressive Movement, and most were theologically liberal, although a few were also conservative when it came to their views on social issues.[4] Important leaders include Richard T. Ely, Josiah Strong, Washington Gladden, and Walter Rauschenbusch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_gospel

In Canada the Social Gospel was embraced by Tommy Douglas (Kiefer Sutherland's grandfather), who was elected the Premier of Saskatchewan as the leader of the first socialist government in North America. Tommy Douglas is often called "The Father of Medicare" in Canada, and other reforms he was influential in were old age pensions and the family allowance. Before he entered politics he was a Baptist minister.
One of his most influential speeches:
www.youtube.com Video from : www.youtube.com

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:10 pm 
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The religious right don't have the only claim to "faith." There's a tradition that gained more traction in Canada than it did in the states called the Social Gospel.


I'm not so sure it gained "more" traction in Canada than the US. It began in the US, for starters. They were the original 19th/20th c Progressives. The Salvation Army is a conservative organization now, but it's one of the longest lasting organizations out of the Social Gospel.

Paul Rauschenbusch is the great grandson of the major theologian of the Social Gospel, Walter Rauschenbusch. Paul is the editor of the Huffington Post Religion section. Here's more on that family

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/martin-ma ... 36636.html?

Also, the phrase "What Would Jesus Do" originated with the Social Gospel. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:01 am 
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I've waited 8 pages before weighing in on this discussion. I thought perhaps I might read something that would change my attitude...but alas that has not happened. So...

I believe that liberal religious people are just as delusional as conservative religious people. And I mean religious, not spiritual. Y'know...

There's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. - G. Carlin

That delusional nonsense.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:41 am 
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I've waited 8 pages before weighing in on this discussion. I thought perhaps I might read something that would change my attitude...but alas that has not happened. So...

I believe that liberal religious people are just as delusional as conservative religious people. And I mean religious, not spiritual. Y'know...

There's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. - G. Carlin

That delusional nonsense.

Religion has nothing to do with faith or spirituality. Religion is ritual and empty form. If you lack the faith or spirituality going through the motions means nothing. And as for dogma? Well that is a heaping pile of attempts at rationalizing why so-called scripture is loaded with contradictions. Doesn't matter whose scripture.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:04 am 
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I decided some time ago, out of respect for my fellow progressives, that it would be best if I simply didn't engage in this thread. The thread isn't about whether Theism is right or not, it's about the positive power of religion on the left. A noble goal. So, continue on, my friends.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:19 am 
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I personally don't see the point in spurning allies like the Rev. William Barber, or the Rev. Welton Gaddy, or the Rev. Jim Wallis ... I think our "liberality" extends to having them in our camp, even if we don't agree with their theistic beliefs. Doing otherwise would be ... dogmatic.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:29 am 
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I personally don't see the point in spurning allies like the Rev. William Barber, or the Rev. Welton Gaddy, or the Rev. Jim Wallis ... I think our "liberality" extends to having them in our camp, even if we don't agree with their theistic beliefs. Doing otherwise would be ... dogmatic.

Well, of course. If we demanded all liberals also be atheist, that would make for a pretty small party. I'm a big-tent guy, and any fellow traveler going my way is welcome.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:56 pm 
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I personally don't see the point in spurning allies like the Rev. William Barber, or the Rev. Welton Gaddy, or the Rev. Jim Wallis ... I think our "liberality" extends to having them in our camp, even if we don't agree with their theistic beliefs. Doing otherwise would be ... dogmatic.

I believe "liberality," concerning religion, is tolerance of another person's religious beliefs provided those beliefs are not forced upon others and don't impair upon the rights of others who don't subscribe to those beliefs. The vast majority of people have the "liberality" concerning religion but it's the tiny minority of those who are religious and atheists who try to force their beliefs on others that cause problems.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:06 pm 
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I decided some time ago, out of respect for my fellow progressives, that it would be best if I simply didn't engage in this thread. The thread isn't about whether Theism is right or not, it's about the positive power of religion on the left. A noble goal. So, continue on, my friends.

I prefer to think of the positive power of people on the left. Their motives in most cases are irrelevant to me. Whether it is good manners as Ike's sig line says or belief in God it matters not.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:25 pm 
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I've waited 8 pages before weighing in on this discussion. I thought perhaps I might read something that would change my attitude...but alas that has not happened. So...

I believe that liberal religious people are just as delusional as conservative religious people. And I mean religious, not spiritual. Y'know...

There's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. - G. Carlin

That delusional nonsense.


But it doesn't matter whether or not we think they're delusional. That doesn't stop them from doing the work, or stop their faith from informing the work they are doing. I like that about them, and it's what I'm most interested in - I'm not into arguing theology with them any more than I want to argue theology with religious rightwingers.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:44 pm 
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But it doesn't matter whether or not we think they're delusional. That doesn't stop them from doing the work, or stop their faith from informing the work they are doing. I like that about them, and it's what I'm most interested in - I'm not into arguing theology with them any more than I want to argue theology with religious rightwingers.


I'm just telling you what I think of the typically religious. If you don't think they're delusional, or that it matters whether or not I think they're delusional, nobody's trying to insist you should feel otherwise. I didn't say you have to argue anything with anybody.

I just think lib Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus, are just as nutty as the con Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:59 pm 
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I'm just telling you what I think of the typically religious. If you don't think they're delusional, or that it matters whether or not I think they're delusional, nobody's trying to insist you should feel otherwise. I didn't say you have to argue anything with anybody.

I just think lib Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus, are just as nutty as the con Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus.


I know, I'm just stating why I start threads like this. Too often in the US, "religion" especially Christianity, is associated with the rightwingers, since they're the most showy about their religiosity. But the picture is incomplete. They're not the only religious people who act on their faith.

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~ James Baldwin, The Fire Next Time



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:03 am 
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I've waited 8 pages before weighing in on this discussion. I thought perhaps I might read something that would change my attitude...but alas that has not happened. So...

I believe that liberal religious people are just as delusional as conservative religious people. And I mean religious, not spiritual. Y'know...

There's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. - G. Carlin

That delusional nonsense.
I don't know Ike. Does't seem like its your place to to define what other people believe. I always put off by the 'religious, not spiritual' meme. Not really sure what that means. I'd have to agree, there are as many 'religious liberal' people that I disagree with as there are 'religious conservative.' But I'd guess that has more to do with their political stance. I have the same dicotomy with 'secular/non-religoius/non-spiritual/non-observant' people.

ps...just as a matter of detail, "ten commandments".....which you and George are apparently referring to...are only six might be viewed as 'negative' (id don't do) Four are [positive. I'd suspect you're ok with the negative as being not good behavior (no need to discuss these, though). Most (religiously observant) people look at these as an outline to a larger set of "laws/commandments/ways/attachments.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:22 am 
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250 women rabbis sign letter condemning Trump ‘hate speech’ - Times of Israel

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The letter, entitled “Women Rabbis Condemn Trump Hate Speech,” was deliberately planned to coincide with Simhat Torah, the annual time of year in which Jews around the world conclude and then restart their reading cycle of Judaism’s holiest text.

One of its signatories, Rabbi Julie Schonfeld, executive vice president of the Rabbinical Assembly who delivered an invocation at this year’s Democratic National Convention, said in an email to reporters that the idea derived from a similar letter sent by Christian clergywomen, which accrued more than 1,000 signatures.

Each of the women rabbis who signed the letter did so in their private role as citizens, not in association with their respective synagogues.

...

The missive is a strong rebuke to a candidate who has often cited his Orthodox Jewish son-in-law, Jared Kushner, and converted daughter, Ivanka Trump, to emphasize his commitment to Israel and the Jewish community.

“Judaism teaches that a person’s utterance of words is in fact a powerful deed. Humiliating someone, even privately, and especially publicly, is a serious form of emotional violence that causes tangible harm and is therefore forbidden by our faith,” the women rabbis stated.

“Consequently, we find Donald Trump’s denigration of so many people and groups to be an ongoing assault he perpetually carries out before the entire world,” they added. “He does this recklessly in the name of our society. As women rabbis and as Jewish leaders in the most sacred and joyous season of our year, we say ‘Not in our names.'”

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:38 am 
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I've waited 8 pages before weighing in on this discussion. I thought perhaps I might read something that would change my attitude...but alas that has not happened. So...

I believe that liberal religious people are just as delusional as conservative religious people. And I mean religious, not spiritual. Y'know...

There's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. - G. Carlin

That delusional nonsense.


ok couple of questions then where are we at and what exactly is going on here?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:46 pm 
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I don't think a political message board is for discussion, per se, of religion itself. That's what Beliefnet is for, and other forums like it.

That said, as with any other matter, the truth value of religious beliefs that make epistemological/ontological claims about reality is always fair for discussion any place and any time. However, in general, with religious, as with aesthetic, ideological, cosmological, etc. beliefs, I usually only argue with ones that it matters to me most to argue with/about.

I tend to think that I'm OK with people believing in things I think don't exist, as long as it's not harming me, them, or others, and I don't expend a lot of effort on it. If they believe in unicorns, I will point out why there doesn't seem to be much evidence for their existence, and ... well, no, I'm not going to continually keep shoving the non existence of unicorns down their throats.

I might spend more effort on proving to them or others why you should vaccinate your kids - false beliefs about vaccination can be more harmful.

On a political message board, which this is, the most directly relevant matter is the political effects and consequences of religious belief. Now here, my personal position is I'm quite glad to have folks like the Rev. Welton Daddy or the Rev. William Barber or the Rev. Jim Wallis on my side, even though I am neither a Christian nor much of a religious believer. We have the same political goals, and so I don't see much point in really calling them nuts or fools, they're usually not shoving their theological beliefs on me (unlike the Christian Right), so ... let's get to work, and leave theological discussion to the appropriate fora ... which is not, usually, a political message board.

BTW, as a scholar who teaches on the subject of comparative world religions, allow me to note many world religions don't have an invisible man in the sky, heck some don't even worship deities, Judaism has no hell (BTW), some don't even have written scriptures. These are generalizations that barely fit the Abrahamics, certainly don't apply to all Western religions, and start to fall apart on the non-Western ones.

I do think spirituality or mysticism is not the same thing as being religious and I do understand what people mean when they say they are "spiritual not religious" although I admit in the U.S. not everybody who says this really understands the difference. Mysticism and religion can be different because mysticism is about experience, not dogma, and it usually emphasizes human brotherhood and unity, not sectarianism and exclusion. Sufi mystics and al-Qaida/ISIS fundamentalists, for example, see things very differently, particularly about "jihad" and what one should be struggling against.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:44 am 
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I don't think a political message board is for discussion, per se, of religion itself. That's what Beliefnet is for, and other forums like it.

That said, as with any other matter, the truth value of religious beliefs that make epistemological/ontological claims about reality is always fair for discussion any place and any time. However, in general, with religious, as with aesthetic, ideological, cosmological, etc. beliefs, I usually only argue with ones that it matters to me most to argue with/about.

I tend to think that I'm OK with people believing in things I think don't exist, as long as it's not harming me, them, or others, and I don't expend a lot of effort on it. If they believe in unicorns, I will point out why there doesn't seem to be much evidence for their existence, and ... well, no, I'm not going to continually keep shoving the non existence of unicorns down their throats.

I might spend more effort on proving to them or others why you should vaccinate your kids - false beliefs about vaccination can be more harmful.

On a political message board, which this is, the most directly relevant matter is the political effects and consequences of religious belief. Now here, my personal position is I'm quite glad to have folks like the Rev. Welton Daddy or the Rev. William Barber or the Rev. Jim Wallis on my side, even though I am neither a Christian nor much of a religious believer. We have the same political goals, and so I don't see much point in really calling them nuts or fools, they're usually not shoving their theological beliefs on me (unlike the Christian Right), so ... let's get to work, and leave theological discussion to the appropriate fora ... which is not, usually, a political message board.

BTW, as a scholar who teaches on the subject of comparative world religions, allow me to note many world religions don't have an invisible man in the sky, heck some don't even worship deities, Judaism has no hell (BTW), some don't even have written scriptures. These are generalizations that barely fit the Abrahamics, certainly don't apply to all Western religions, and start to fall apart on the non-Western ones.

I do think spirituality or mysticism is not the same thing as being religious and I do understand what people mean when they say they are "spiritual not religious" although I admit in the U.S. not everybody who says this really understands the difference. Mysticism and religion can be different because mysticism is about experience, not dogma, and it usually emphasizes human brotherhood and unity, not sectarianism and exclusion. Sufi mystics and al-Qaida/ISIS fundamentalists, for example, see things very differently, particularly about "jihad" and what one should be struggling against.

:clap: :clap:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:16 am 
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As stated by the author of this thread:

"This is a thread to highlight people doing the actual work."

By "work", I assume it means actions beyond mere talk. Typically, Progressive Christian congregations are very good at simple matters, like food drives to stock food banks for the needy, etc.

By "work", I also assume a willingness to take personal risks while living a set of values with integrity.

We owe a great deal to these people. Most of the individuals I know who belong to this category never seek recognition for their "work". If anything, they are content to lead by example.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:04 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:25 am 
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Clergy Climate Action

#NoDAPL

Clergy Standing with Standing Rock

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Clergy Call to Solidarity at Standing Rock
October 25, 2016
Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I write to my fellow clergy of all faiths today, to invite you to join me on Standing Rock Sioux nation on the banks of the Missouri River on November 3rd.

We will gather to stand witness to water protector’s acts of compassion for God’s creation, and to the transformative power of God’s love to make a way out of no way.

I have been serving 25 years as the supervising priest of the Episcopal churches of Standing Rock in North Dakota. In recent days, the repressive power of the state has increased: armed riot police are guarding ongoing pipeline construction, increased arrests and repression of non-violent prayerful action. At the same time, Oceti Sakowin water protectors have reclaimed land never relinquished by treaty directly in the path of the pipeline and established a new camp.

Our duty as people of faith and clergy could not be clearer: to stand on the side of the oppressed and to pray for God’s mercy in these challenging times.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:10 pm 
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Standing Rock - Articles and Videos - Episcopal Church news service

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:10 pm 
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Standing in Solidarity - Presbyterian (PC[USA]) Mission

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From across the United States and the world, indigenous peoples and their allies have gathered at the Camp of the Sacred Stones, north of Cannon Ball, North Dakota, near the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe reservation’s northern border. Members of the tribe took the initiative in this witness to protect their sacred sites and waters from environmental harm and to affirm tribal sovereignty and Treaty rights.

The people, known as water protectors, have come together in an effort to stop the Dallas-based company Energy Transfer from piping Bakken oilfield crude oil underneath the Missouri River, the main source of drinking water for the tribe. This project is known as the Dakota Access Oil Pipeline (DAPL).

The witness of the water protectors has touched the conscience of people and nations around the world to stand in solidarity with Standing Rock. Out of our faith, Presbyterians join them.

Recognizing the call of Jesus to stand with those who seek justice, Presbyterians have supported the water protectors in prayer. We have traveled to Standing Rock and have made financial contributions and provided supplies. We have signed petitions, made phone calls, and written letters to public officials and corporate leaders.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:10 pm 
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Standing Rock: A Clergy Call to Action - United Church of Christ

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As Christians, we, the undersigned clergy, are conditioned by the gospel to stand on the side of the persecuted and the jailed. As such, we are compelled by our faith to stand with the water protectors of Standing Rock, who have pricked the conscience of a nation and the world. In opposing the Dakota Access Pipeline that would carry oil from North Dakota to Illinois, they have resolutely declared that they are not protestors but protectors and defenders acting out of a sacred obligation which affirms “water is life.”

In a pattern familiar to our faith, they have stood as peacemakers while government authorities and hate-filled hecklers deride them as criminals, rioters, and terrorists. With moral indignation, we have watched as children, women, and men have joined in prayer and song only to suffer at the hands of those wielding batons and pointing rifles. With justified outrage, we have heard of how those arrested have been strip-searched and humiliated. With acute offence, we have witnessed an escalating, militarized response to acts of nonviolence. We have witnessed multiple law enforcement agencies and the National Guard protecting the brazen and wanton acts of corporate powers determined to have their way. As these events unfold, we are aware of the context of race that defines this reality. In a letter to the Attorney General, Standing Rock Chairman Dave Archambault II writes, “This country has a long and sad history of using military force against indigenous people–including the Sioux Nation.”

For these reasons and more, we have joined together as clergy to issue two calls


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:26 pm 
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Peaceful, prayerful, nonviolent stand of solidarity with the Standing Rock Sioux - Episcopal News Service

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“We knew you were coming; that one day you would come here and start asking questions about your government,” said elder Regina Brave, her long, gray braid falling over the word “navy” written in yellow, capital letters across the top of her black, leather vest. “We are all children of God. Black, red, yellow, white, are all represented.”
Brave, an Oglala from the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota, took the microphone at a gymnasium in Cannon Ball, North Dakota, on Nov. 2, the night before more than 500 interfaith clergy and laity joined opponents of the Dakota Access Pipeline in a show of prayerful, peaceful, nonviolent and lawful solidarity and witness.


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_________________


Please try to remember that what they believe, as well as what they do and
cause you to endure does not testify to your inferiority but to their inhumanity

~ James Baldwin, The Fire Next Time



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