Is this the high-water mark of our freedoms? Must-see.

[gounion]

Prayer in schools was discussed for years GoU. It didn’t start or end with a Supreme Court decision. The debate continues to this day. Again, you miss the point. The argument given by those that opposed school prayer was that values such as religious values were to be the responsibilities of the home and education was the responsibility of the school and the educator. That debate and those arguments didn’t end with a Supreme Court decision.

And your side has been lying about it every since, just like you have here.

It's NOT about values, it's about the establishment of religion in public schools, which your side wants. It's NOT about values.

Values are not a religion-only concept. Today, the Christian Right has no values. It's all about political power. They don't treat people by the Golden Rule. And the religions were 100% behind the horrors our our history against black people right up until today.

You don't get values in the Bible. So your argument is false on the face of it.

[JoeMemphis]

And your side has been lying about it every since, just like you have here.

It's NOT about values, it's about the establishment of religion in public schools, which your side wants. It's NOT about values.

Values are not a religion-only concept. Today, the Christian Right has no values. It's all about political power. They don't treat people by the Golden Rule. And the religions were 100% behind the horrors our our history against black people right up until today.

You don't get values in the Bible. So your argument is false on the face of it.

My side (which is me) isn’t interested in religious public schools. I never said values are a religion only concept. I’m interested in school systems that educate and give students the skill set they will need to support themselves and their families and to pursue whatever their personal goals and aspirations may be.

That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell. I don’t really have an agenda beyond that.

[gounion]

My side (which is me) isn’t interested in religious public schools. I never said values are a religion only concept. I’m interested in school systems that educate and give students the skill set they will need to support themselves and their families and to pursue whatever their personal goals and aspirations may be.

That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell. I don’t really have an agenda beyond that.

School shouldn't just be vocational training. Maybe that's all you paid attention to. I wouldn't be surprised.

And YOU'RE the one that said, and I quote exactly: " We were told years ago during the whole “prayer in school” debate, that values should be left to the parents. It wasn’t the schools job to teach values. Theirs was to educate. So I think we should stick to that standard."

So now you're pissing backwards and pretending that's not what you said.

Values.

I was assigned books to read in school that made me think. Made me reason. Gave me other people's perspective. Maybe you never go that.

I was in grade school when I read Flowers for Algernon. You've probably never read it, never even heard of it. I daresay you don't read anything much at all. But that was a book that made you think about values.

Our schools in Kansas taught lots of values. It taught citizenship, and made you think about important values in our world at the time. We witnessed the lawmen in the south turn fire hoses on little children. The shootings of unarmed students at Kent State. We discussed such things.

Maybe you didn't. Maybe you were blithely unaware. Seeing you know, I'd believe it. But we WERE taught values in school. You just made this shit up in your mind.

[ProfX]

The public education system answers to the public. So you get a say and parents get a say.

OK. Again, they always had a "say". They can elect who is on the school board, they can attend school board meetings. They are allowed input. They can attend PTA meetings. They can meet teachers and discuss the curriculum. Always been true.

That has been true for decades. I don't see how they didn't have a "say" until these new laws now said teachers cannot "say" certain things in a 3rd grade public school classroom anywhere in Florida, and BTW that might be the case even if 100% of parents and the board in that district didn't want them to lose that "say". In effect, those parents lost their "say". Parents all over Florida who WANT their kids learning the 1619 Project just LOST their "say".

Here I'm a localist, Joe. If you don't want your kids learning about certain aspects of history, go to the school board for YOUR KIDS' district, and make that argument. Maybe they'll listen - I personally hope not, but that's the process ... don't take away that possibility for all districts in Florida. Other parents don't feel the way you do. And here's the thing - if the majority of parents don't feel the way you do, you are NOT speaking for all parents, or even a majority of parents.

In those cases, I think it’s the parents job.

Let me be clear: I again want to emphasize it is not a teachers' job to make you agree with a set of all moral values. It is not the job of a teacher to convince you homosexuality is right, or homosexuality is wrong. (Or that abortion is right, or abortion is wrong. To agree with one religion's view on the matter, or another's. In that sense, yes, teachers do not indoctrinate people into values.) (I don't agree parents are the only other agents of socialization in this equation, though, nor that they have sole dominion over their children's socialization.)

The problem is, right now, they can't even discuss that it exists, with a 3rd grader, and that doesn't strike me as a very factual, scientific education.

I also believe education has a function far beyond the vocational. But this gets us into other areas even further afield. John Dewey thought it was training to be a good citizen and BTW I agree. I think you learn many good skills, like critical thinking, which can aid you in areas besides your vocation.... BTW, certain values thus have to be part of a basic education, including justice, democracy, human rights, and the protection of the environment. Let's call those "civic virtues".

[ProfX]

Since there's only one way to know if politicians are doing the peoples' will - polls - let's discuss some.

Americans do not support politicians punishing firms for their views, Reuters/Ipsos poll finds
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/americ ... 022-04-29/

WASHINGTON, April 29 (Reuters) - A bipartisan majority of U.S. voters oppose politicians punishing companies over their stances on social issues, a cold reception for campaigns like Florida Governor Ron DeSantis' against Walt Disney Co (DIS.N), a Reuters/Ipsos poll found.

The two-day poll completed on Thursday showed that 62% of Americans - including 68% of Democrats and 55% of Republicans - said they were less likely to back a candidate who supports going after companies for their views.

[snip]

Half of U.S. voters support laws banning classroom discussion on sexual orientation or gender identity for children age 5-11, including 69% of Republicans and 36% of Democrats.

[snip][end]

We could talk about FL polls, but on that 2nd question, it's one of many that's a 50-50 split down the nation. Obviously, like so many other things, depending on partisanship.

50% favor laws like "Don't Say Gay" - but 50% also don't - and a lot of those people are also parents. Of all kinds of kids, cis, trans, gay, or straight.

[JoeMemphis]

School shouldn't just be vocational training. Maybe that's all you paid attention to. I wouldn't be surprised.

And YOU'RE the one that said, and I quote exactly: " We were told years ago during the whole “prayer in school” debate, that values should be left to the parents. It wasn’t the schools job to teach values. Theirs was to educate. So I think we should stick to that standard."

So now you're pissing backwards and pretending that's not what you said.

Values.

I was assigned books to read in school that made me think. Made me reason. Gave me other people's perspective. Maybe you never go that.

I was in grade school when I read Flowers for Algernon. You've probably never read it, never even heard of it. I daresay you don't read anything much at all. But that was a book that made you think about values.

Our schools in Kansas taught lots of values. It taught citizenship, and made you think about important values in our world at the time. We witnessed the lawmen in the south turn fire hoses on little children. The shootings of unarmed students at Kent State. We discussed such things.

Maybe you didn't. Maybe you were blithely unaware. Seeing you know, I'd believe it. But we WERE taught values in school. You just made this shit up in your mind.

I believe I said a couple of posts ago that I get certain values are part of education. Perhaps you missed that.

Where we part company is on the values that we all don’t agree on. The values that end up on political boards like this. Religious values is one of them but there are other values as well. Values that get discussed in school board meetings. So yeah, not every parent wants a public school discussing gender identification with their 3rd grader. I know this is tough for you to grasp but the state don’t have a right to teach whatever it chooses to other people’s kids. And if enough parents get concerned about it then they can and will put a stop to it. If you feel differently and you get enough people together then you can affect change as well. That’s not authoritarian. That’s democracy. Personally, I’m okay with democracy.

[gounion]

I believe I said a couple of posts ago that I get certain values are part of education. Perhaps you missed that.

Yeah, I can see you've been pissing backwards - but just pointing out the reality that your assertion that educators didn't want to teach values in school during some prayer in school debate was just made up.

Where we part company is on the values that we all don’t agree on. The values that end up on political boards like this. Religious values is one of them but there are other values as well. Values that get discussed in school board meetings. So yeah, not every parent wants a public school discussing gender identification with their 3rd grader. I know this is tough for you to grasp but the state don’t have a right to teach whatever it chooses to other people’s kids. And if enough parents get concerned about it then they can and will put a stop to it. If you feel differently and you get enough people together then you can affect change as well. That’s not authoritarian. That’s democracy. Personally, I’m okay with democracy.

But you feel one parent should be able to tell all teachers what they can teach. A gag order.

It's all about censorship with you guys. And I stand on the opposite side of you. You don't want your children taught actual science and reality, put them in a private school. Your choice.

This Doonesbury cartoon illustrates what you guys want perfectly. You want the schools to teach ideology, not reality. I love the kid at the end saying "Please stop. I'd like to get into a good school".

[gounion]

That’s not authoritarian. That’s democracy. Personally, I’m okay with democracy.

What DeSantas is doing isn't democracy. It's dictatorship.

[JoeMemphis]

OK. Again, they always had a "say". They can elect who is on the school board, they can attend school board meetings. They are allowed input. They can attend PTA meetings. They can meet teachers and discuss the curriculum. Always been true.

That has been true for decades. I don't see how they didn't have a "say" until these new laws now said teachers cannot "say" certain things in a 3rd grade public school classroom anywhere in Florida, and BTW that might be the case even if 100% of parents and the board in that district didn't want them to lose that "say". In effect, those parents lost their "say". Parents all over Florida who WANT their kids learning the 1619 Project just LOST their "say".

Here I'm a localist, Joe. If you don't want your kids learning about certain aspects of history, go to the school board for YOUR KIDS' district, and make that argument. Maybe they'll listen - I personally hope not, but that's the process ... don't take away that possibility for all districts in Florida. Other parents don't feel the way you do. And here's the thing - if the majority of parents don't feel the way you do, you are NOT speaking for all parents, or even a majority of parents.



Let me be clear: I again want to emphasize it is not a teachers' job to make you agree with a set of all moral values. It is not the job of a teacher to convince you homosexuality is right, or homosexuality is wrong. (Or that abortion is right, or abortion is wrong. To agree with one religion's view on the matter, or another's. In that sense, yes, teachers do not indoctrinate people into values.) (I don't agree parents are the only other agents of socialization in this equation, though, nor that they have sole dominion over their children's socialization.)

The problem is, right now, they can't even discuss that it exists, with a 3rd grader, and that doesn't strike me as a very factual, scientific education.

I also believe education has a function far beyond the vocational. But this gets us into other areas even further afield. John Dewey thought it was training to be a good citizen and BTW I agree. I think you learn many good skills, like critical thinking, which can aid you in areas besides your vocation.... BTW, certain values thus have to be part of a basic education, including justice, democracy, human rights, and the protection of the environment. Let's call those "civic virtues".

I don’t disagree with much of what you say. Personally, I like the idea of school choice but since we have the system we have I think it’s important for parents to be involved in the education of their children. I guess the downside to that is that not everyone will agree on everything. That’s nothing new either. I recall that in high school that parents who didn’t want their kids taking certain controversial subjects could opt out of them. Not sure how well that worked. But the point is that parents have every right to question the curriculum and every right to object. If Disney has that right, so does the parent. If Disney has a right to fight to change the law or curriculum, so does the parent. Elections are where and how these changes get made. Not everybody will agree but that’s how it works. That’s not authoritarian. It’s just democracy.

[JoeMemphis]

Yeah, I can see you've been pissing backwards - but just pointing out the reality that your assertion that educators didn't want to teach values in school during some prayer in school debate was just made up.

But you feel one parent should be able to tell all teachers what they can teach. A gag order.

It's all about censorship with you guys. And I stand on the opposite side of you. You don't want your children taught actual science and reality, put them in a private school. Your choice.

This Doonesbury cartoon illustrates what you guys want perfectly. You want the schools to teach ideology, not reality. I love the kid at the end saying "Please stop. I'd like to get into a good school".

If you want to teach whatever you choose to other peoples kids, go start your own school.

[ProfX]

I recall that in high school that parents who didn’t want their kids taking certain controversial subjects could opt out of them.

Yes ... and then you don't take away the rights of other parents and children who DO want to learn that material - or read that book.

Let alone, of course, teachers who want to teach it.

BTW, I believe science teachers in a public school should be teaching scientific fact, whether some parents agree with it or not. Science is not a popularity contest, it's based on empirical demonstration. 90 out of 100 parents may want their kids to learn the Earth is the center of the universe but it doesn't make it so. But I've said that.

The issue gets thornier when we get to social sciences and humanities, but I still think there are consensus positions of scholars there. History, of course, falls in this area. And again, on certain areas, for example, I think if a history teacher is going to teach that there never was a Nazi Holocaust, they are outside of any possible responsible academic consensus on the topic.

[JoeMemphis]

Yes ... and then you don't take away the rights of other parents and children who DO want to learn that material - or read that book.

Let alone, of course, teachers who want to teach it.

BTW, I believe science teachers in a public school should be teaching scientific fact, whether some parents agree with it or not. Science is not a popularity contest, it's based on empirical demonstration. 90 out of 100 parents may want their kids to learn the Earth is the center of the universe but it doesn't make it so. But I've said that.

The issue gets thornier when we get to social sciences and humanities, but I still think there are consensus positions of scholars there. History, of course, falls in this area. And again, on certain areas, for example, I think if a history teacher is going to teach that there never was a Nazi Holocaust, they are outside of any possible responsible academic consensus on the topic.

I think we can agree that most science and math is fairly straightforward. I am not aware of any flat earthers. I agree with you it gets a little more sensitive when you get into some of the liberal arts. I am not advocating not teaching the Holocaust or the history of slavery. I think as long as those topics are presented factually as they happened I don’t see an issue.

[gounion]

I think we can agree that most science and math is fairly straightforward. I am not aware of any flat earthers. I agree with you it gets a little more sensitive when you get into some of the liberal arts. I am not advocating not teaching the Holocaust or the history of slavery. I think as long as those topics are presented factually as they happened I don’t see an issue.

Your side is the ones that wanted to teach creationism.

So much for facts.

[JoeMemphis]

Your side is the ones that wanted to teach creationism.

So much for facts.

[ProfX]

I think we can agree that most science and math is fairly straightforward.

Except that you say that, and someone named Galileo was imprisoned for saying the Earth was not at the center of the solar system.

Heck, this guy named Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for saying there was an infinity of worlds.

Without even getting into Darwin.

[carmenjonze]

Imagine if you confederates got as animated and passionate about police brutality as you are about being asked to put a piece of cloth over your dirty mouths.

[carmenjonze]

I think we can agree that most science and math is fairly straightforward. I am not aware of any flat earthers. I agree with you it gets a little more sensitive when you get into some of the liberal arts. I am not advocating not teaching the Holocaust or the history of slavery. I think as long as those topics are presented factually as they happened I don’t see an issue.

Write your congressperson.

[carmenjonze]

If you want to teach whatever you choose to other peoples kids, go start your own school.

Please point out one instance of a public school teacher teaching “whatever they choose.”

Just one.

I can point you to many news stories of conservative whackodoodle teachers doing that, and we would hear a pin drop from you and these propagandized rightwing parents screaming Heritage Foundation slogans at school board meetings.

[JoeMemphis]

Except that you say that, and someone named Galileo was imprisoned for saying the Earth was not at the center of the solar system.

Heck, this guy named Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for saying there was an infinity of worlds.

Without even getting into Darwin.

So you are worried about getting burned at the stake?

Sorry I don't have the perfect solution. People aren't going to agree all the time. Such is life. Parents are taking an interest in the education of their children. That's a good thing. Can't guarantee they will always agree with educators and I can't guarantee they won't push back. Happens in my work all the time. I have a feeling you will survive and so will the teaching profession.

[carmenjonze]

If Disney has that right, so does the parent. If Disney has a right to fight to change the law or curriculum, so does the parent.

Disney didn’t change any laws or any curriculum. Conservative dullards started banning things in curricula that were never in them to begin with. Maybe it accomplished its task of lathering up rightwing dim bulbs such as yourself, just like you guys got lathered up over nonexistent shariah law and caravans of gang members from Mexico or whatever.

But you make yourselves easy to exploit and don’t even seem to care.

When you guys say “parents,” you don’t mean actual parents, you’re talking about the one group of “parents” that matters to you: these propagandized Moms For Libburddy karens and anti-maskers running to PTA meetings with printouts from Christopher Rufo’s website.

The only “parents” you care about are white con parents and their tapdancing imitators.

There are a whole lot more “parents” in the country besides these ignorant, authoritarian, conservative dupes.

[carmenjonze]

So you are worried about getting burned at the stake?

Sorry I don't have the perfect solution. People aren't going to agree all the time. Such is life. Parents are taking an interest in the education of their children. That's a good thing. Can't guarantee they will always agree with educators and I can't guarantee they won't push back. Happens in my work all the time. I have a feeling you will survive and so will the teaching profession.

Since you opted to ignore the point of Profx’s post, the conservative onslaught against public schools is to defund public education.

Not only that, you guys are literally banning books and firing teachers who don’t teach according to the conservative ideology being imposed on children through these asinine curriculum bans, bathroom bills, and sports team personnel bans.

The analogy is that science, while perhaps more “straightforward” than the humanities, is not free from encroachment from conservatives.

Another good example is the eugenics movement of last century, which was entirely based in public and Ivy League higher education.

120 years later we’re still undoing the lasting damage you guys did by implementing eugenics policies at the state and local levels.

When the schools were teaching that whites are superior, we heard no such complaints as the sand you guys are raising now.

Lol and yet Florida just axed a math book from its curriculum because it had a cartoon of a Black kid.

You guys are a bunch of snowflakes.

[ProfX]

It's not me I'm worried about.

[carmenjonze]

Elections are where and how these changes get made. …

… which is why conservative whites used to murder us for voting, and are currently imposing voter suppression laws in state after state.

Then along come militant ignoamuses like you, banning books that were never in the curriculum, on topics you’ve never even read, yourselves.

You guys and your antidemocratic, anti-intellectual way of life bring down this country.

[carmenjonze]

That being said, the underlying issue of who should be giving guidance to third graders on matters of sex and gender identification issues IMO should be the parents and not the state. IMO, that’s not the state’s job.

"The state" is not giving any such guidance.

"The state" is censoring discussion of nontraditional sexuality, gender, and relationship arrangements using old commiebaiting, Cold War, Lavender Scare tactics.

Since you're new to Florida, they're also Anita Bryant tactics. You probably fell for those, too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_Our_Children




Fundraising card used by Bryant and Save Our Children; their strategies offered a basis for the Moral Majority, who claimed to be saving America from immorality and Communism in the 1980s.


You guys do sh#t like this every other year, in every decade. :problem:

The goal this year is to allow underinformed idiots and dupes of rightwing social authoritarianism like you, to sue and defund public schools based on these pretexts.

Being the dumbest person on this board, you're right behind the second-dumbest person on this board. Both of you pontificate about what this law means to LGBTQ people in Florida while ignoring what every single LGBTQ advocacy organization says about this law, and Ron DeSantis's treatment of Disney for speaking out against the law.

Speaking of what actual LGBTQ say about it, you watched the video, yet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ysZYwjuFes

[carmenjonze]

It's not me I'm worried about.

The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters.

Had to look this one up! Good one!

These authoritarians would blow it out completely, if they could.

Or just use it to torch everything in their path. :problem: