What Should Have the Delware Students Done?

[carmenjonze]

Here's the body cam footage from beginning to end....

https://www.delawareonline.com/story/ne ... 729651002/

Pretextual stops to fight the war on drugs. Yay. Kinda looks like that crew makes dozens of searches like that a day.

What point are you trying to make?

[marindem01]

Maybe the Guy from South Carolina wanted those Afrifcan-American Women to do their best "Step and Fitch It".

Maybe he even wants Carmen to bow and scrape, which would happen sometime between now and when Hell Freezes over.

[carmenjonze]

Maybe the Guy from South Carolina wanted those Afrifcan-American Women to do their best "Step and Fitch It".

Maybe he even wants Carmen to bow and scrape, which would happen sometime between now and when Hell Freezes over.

I don’t really GAS what this internet confederate thinks about me. But they did nothing wrong and nothing to deserve that treatment.

Because Glennfs endorses and excuses racial profiling of African Americans every chance he gets, he’s deliberately skipping over this key element of this story.

[bradman]

What point are you trying to make?

All states have commercial inspection units that do what that sheriff's unit did. It's all they do. Day in and day out, they stop commercial vehicles for a minor violation and then have the right to do a full inspection. Truck, logs, and you. And yes, some have a K-9 unit as they did. To them, it was a normal inspection that Georgia allows for.

Carmen:

I don’t really GAS what this internet confederate thinks about me. But they did nothing wrong and nothing to deserve that treatment.

Because Glennfs endorses and excuses racial profiling of African Americans every chance he gets, he’s deliberately skipping over this key element of this story.

[bold]Welcome to the real world of driving commercial vehicles. Drivers go through it every... single... day. The instant CDL drivers sit their ass in that seat they lose a good deal of their constitutional rights.

i do find it odd that it was a Sheriff's department that was being used for that purpose. Here inn Mn. Police and Sheriff's departments can't do commercial vehicle inspections. That's the role of MnDOT. (State Troopers)They do sometimes work with D.O.T., but it's only to lasso drivers and deliver them to the inspection area where they then turn ya over to the bad guys. In that kind of case they don't even need a pre-textual reason to pull a driver over.

[ProfX]

So, while it may be the case that the 4th amendment is routinely violated, that doesn't mean it is acceptable. OR Constitutionally permissible. I know some people don't seem to care about anything but the 2nd, but ...

And yes, Virginia, there are racial disparities. Pretext stops = the motor vehicle equivalent of "stop and frisk". And they don't just happen to commercial drivers.

Police ‘Pretext’ Traffic Stops Need to End, Some Lawmakers Say
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... makers-say

[snip]

As part of the movement to curb police brutality, there’s renewed interest in reducing, or eliminating, pretext stops, which studies have shown to be racially biased. Police stop and search Black motorists more often than drivers of other races with little effect on crime, studies show.

[snip]

White drivers were about 20% less likely to be stopped than Black drivers as a share of the population, according to a study released last year.

The team of researchers from Stanford University and New York University analyzed a dataset of nearly 100 million traffic stops across the country over nearly a decade. White drivers, they found, were searched 1.5 to 2 times less often than Black drivers, but were more likely to have drugs, guns or other contraband.

[snip]

The Oregon Supreme Court ruled last November police could no longer pull someone over for a broken taillight or failure to signal, then ask unrelated questions, such as asking for consent to search the car for illegal drugs or guns.

The Virginia legislature is considering limiting traffic stop violations as part of a sweeping criminal justice package. Texas Democratic lawmakers plan to introduce a wide-ranging criminal justice package that includes banning pretext traffic stops altogether when the legislature convenes in January.

[snip][end]

Maybe they are happening "all the time". If so, all the more reason to put a stop to them. And legislatures are increasingly doing so.

Police should have a warrant or probable cause to search your vehicle (and the personal belongings of passengers), and I don't care whether it's an 18 wheeler rig, a smart car, a school bus, or a motorbike.

[gounion]

All states have commercial inspection units that do what that sheriff's unit did. It's all they do. Day in and day out, they stop commercial vehicles for a minor violation and then have the right to do a full inspection. Truck, logs, and you. And yes, some have a K-9 unit as they did. To them, it was a normal inspection that Georgia allows for.

Carmen:


[bold]Welcome to the real world of driving commercial vehicles. Drivers go through it every... single... day. The instant CDL drivers sit their ass in that seat they lose a good deal of their constitutional rights.

i do find it odd that it was a Sheriff's department that was being used for that purpose. Here inn Mn. Police and Sheriff's departments can't do commercial vehicle inspections. That's the role of MnDOT. (State Troopers)They do sometimes work with D.O.T., but it's only to lasso drivers and deliver them to the inspection area where they then turn ya over to the bad guys. In that kind of case they don't even need a pre-textual reason to pull a driver over.

These weren't commercial inspection officers. If they were, then their department, not a Sheriff, would have addressed the action. This was a Sheriff's department on an interstate highway - not even the highway patrol.

I know in some states, the government has forbidden local police from doing anything on an interstate, as they often make lots of stops with outrageous fines. I was caught in on years ago just south of Fort Worth TX on I-35 W. They were always set up with radar and would ticket you for one mile over, with fines into the hundreds. They always wanted to adjudicate it, which meant you paid several hundred dollars to keep it off your record.

So, no, this isn't a commercial stop. This was a drug stop of black people.

[bradman]

These weren't commercial inspection officers. If they were, then their department, not a Sheriff, would have addressed the action. This was a Sheriff's department on an interstate highway - not even the highway patrol.

I know in some states, the government has forbidden local police from doing anything on an interstate, as they often make lots of stops with outrageous fines. I was caught in on years ago just south of Fort Worth TX on I-35 W. They were always set up with radar and would ticket you for one mile over, with fines into the hundreds. They always wanted to adjudicate it, which meant you paid several hundred dollars to keep it off your record.

So, no, this isn't a commercial stop. This was a drug stop of black people.

[bold] i've been through a hundred D.O.T. inspections during my life time. If it walks and quacks like a duck chances are it's a duck. It sure looked like a commercial vehicle inspection unit set up for just that purpose. i guess the question would be, does Georgia have, and allow for, a Sheriff's department to fill the role of the State Troopers? My guess would be yes. That Sheriff's department was within Georgia procedures and law.

[gounion]

[bold] i've been through a hundred D.O.T. inspections during my life time. If it walks and quacks like a duck chances are it's a duck. It sure looked like a commercial vehicle inspection unit set up for just that purpose. i guess the question would be, does Georgia have, and allow for, a Sheriff's department to fill the role of the State Troopers? My guess would be yes. That Sheriff's department was within Georgia procedures and law.

I've driven through Georgia many, many times. I've seen cars all over the state pulled over with all their belongings out on the ground. It happens all the time.

You're from the upper midwest. I lived and traveled throughout the south. Things are a LOT different down there.

And lastly, were this a D.O.T. inspection, the Sheriff would have said so. It wasn't. It was southern good ole boys harassing blacks.

[Glennfs]

[bold] i've been through a hundred D.O.T. inspections during my life time. If it walks and quacks like a duck chances are it's a duck. It sure looked like a commercial vehicle inspection unit set up for just that purpose. i guess the question would be, does Georgia have, and allow for, a Sheriff's department to fill the role of the State Troopers? My guess would be yes. That Sheriff's department was within Georgia procedures and law.

100s of DOT inspections really? I've been driving since 91 and haven't been through anywhere near 100. Maybe 60.
If you go through a level 1 DOT inspection they put a sticker on your windshield. With that sticker you won't get inspected again for quite awhile.
As for non dot cops doing a dot inspection. In most if not all states all they need do is get qualified to do inspections.

Finally and most importantly to this incident. In 31 years of driving I have never seen a loaded bus get a DOT inspection.

[ProfX]

'It was disturbing': Attorneys question Liberty County deputies' search of Delaware State bus
https://www.augustachronicle.com/story/ ... 719605002/

Prominent Georgia attorneys question the actions of sheriff's deputies in Liberty County, Georgia, some even speculating that they violated the civil rights of student-athletes from a Delaware HBCU when they searched the lacrosse players' motorcoach.

[snip]

The women’s lacrosse team was motoring along Interstate 95 through Liberty County on April 20 after playing at Stetson University the previous night in DeLand, Florida. The bus was stopped for traveling improperly in the left lane — which is illegal for trucks but not buses.

[snip]

Redmon said that while the search may have been legal, the stop itself was likely improper. While the law does prevent trucks from traveling in the left hand lane, the law excludes "buses and motorcoaches" from the definition for a truck.

[snip]

Davis said Bowman was correct that a an alert from a K9 unit would constitute probable cause, but he thought it was unnecessary to bring in a K9 unit to investigate a bus full of college athletes in the first place.

[snip]

"Even if the dog truly alerted to something, before they start rummaging through multiple bags, they should have the dog sniff the bags and alert to that particular bag," he said. "I'm a father, I have a teenage daughter. I would hope if my daughter was taking a trip, a school-sponsored trip, and an officer pulled the driver over for driving in the left lane, that my daughter's belongings would be treated with more respect."

[snip]

Davis said that when he does "know your rights" trainings he tells people to be respectful, but assert their right not to let law enforcement search their vehicles.

"What we say ... when you're pulled over, make sure they can see your hands, answer them respectfully, and if they asked if you will consent to a search of your vehicle just say no," he said.

If deputies conduct a search anyway, Davis advises following instructions, but filing a complaint afterwards to put the information on the record.

[snip][end]

OK class. Let's review.

There was no reason for the traffic stop in the first place. Trucks cannot use the left lane the bus was in, but that law doesn't apply to busses. So, in fact, there was no traffic infraction. Problem 1.

OK, it does look like they had been doing several of these "routine" inspections that day, and so, "they just so happened" to have a K9 unit with them. They are claiming they had probable cause because they claim the dog sniffed something. (BTW, they COULD be lying.) OK. Well, those dogs are unreliable, there was no reason to use the dog on the bus "even if it just happened to be there," and if it was "alerting" to a piece of luggage, why not just search that specifically, and not all the belongings on the bus?

In answer to the question in this thread, whether you are the passenger on a vehicle or the driver, in any state in this fair nation, if the police ask to search your vehicle, you have a right to say no. Not to resist with physical force. No one's saying that. You have every right to ask them for their probable cause for doing so, you do not have to consent. And I agree with what's stated: if they gave no probable cause and searched anyway, get their names and badge numbers, and contact the ACLU for pro bono representation.

I hope legal authorities in Delaware and Georgia continue their investigation.

[Glennfs]

Maybe the Guy from South Carolina wanted those Afrifcan-American Women to do their best "Step and Fitch It".

Maybe he even wants Carmen to bow and scrape, which would happen sometime between now and when Hell Freezes over.

In case you missed it I said in the OP thise victim's did 100pct the correct thing at the time.
As for step and fetchit I do it everytime I am stopped. To date nobody has ever won an argument with a cop while standing on the side of the road.
If you are wronged you save that fight for later

[Glennfs]

What should the Delware Students have done.

1. Demand to know the reason for their bus being stopped.

2. Demand the badge number/I.D. Number of the deputies doing the stop.

3. Demand why their their Fourth Amendment Rights were being violated.

The Fourth Amendment to The Constitution of The United States of America.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

From the clip:

One of the officers said, “If there is anything in your luggage, we’re probably gonna find it….I’m not looking for a little marijuana, but I’m pretty sure you guys chaperones will probably be disappointed if we find it.” There was no probable cause for such a search. Nor was an exigent circumstance to compel the stop or the search.

The teams right to secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects were clearly violated.

There was no justification for the stop. The driver of the was NOT driving in an erratic manner. He did not appear under the fluence of drugs/alcohol.

Racial profiling pure and simple.

See this is a real answer. Had they done that in a polite and professional manner I doubt the outcome would have been any different. But, it would bolster their case going forward.
The person stepping up and asking those questions should have been the coach.

[bradman]

I've driven through Georgia many, many times. I've seen cars all over the state pulled over with all their belongings out on the ground. It happens all the time.

You're from the upper midwest. I lived and traveled throughout the south. Things are a LOT different down there.

And lastly, were this a D.O.T. inspection, the Sheriff would have said so. It wasn't. It was southern good ole boys harassing blacks.

What makes you think i've never been outside the Midwest? i've held a CDL since the age of 18 and even worked as a bedbugger (Allied Van Lines) There isn't a State i haven't driven through. i'm fully aware the further south you go the worse things get.

Whether it was an official commercial inspection unit, or a unit set up (as the Sheriff did state) just for the Interstate war on drugs/child trafficking, chances are Georgia allows for such a thing. Chances are that unit does that every day, day in and day out.

But, we don't know for sure now do we?

[gounion]

I was correct. I said the Sheriff lied when he said the student's belonging had not been searched, as clearly, the stories state they HAD been searched. The Sheriff now says he "misspoke".

Bullshit. He was lying, and got caught in the lie.

I was stopped once in Oklahoma for speeding by an officer with a K9. The officer was really nice and chatty, and gave me a warning. He never asked me if he could search my car. I would have refused, though I didn't have anything remotely illegal in the car. But I DID have all kinds of camera and computer equipment, as well as clothing and personal items for a multi-week trip. I wasn't about to have it strewn all over the highway.

But then, I was a respectable middle-aged white guy in a nice care. They don't ask us such things. White privilege!

I decided long ago that, having learned my rights in the situation, I would never allow my car to be inspected. But then, no cop ever asked me. It's a lot easier for a white male to never have to worry about such a problem.

[gounion]

What makes you think i've never been outside the Midwest? i've held a CDL since the age of 18 and even worked as a bedbugger (Allied Van Lines) There isn't a State i haven't driven through. i'm fully aware the further south you go the worse things get.

Whether it was an official commercial inspection unit, or a unit set up (as the Sheriff did state) just for the Interstate war on drugs/child trafficking, chances are Georgia allows for such a thing. Chances are that unit does that every day, day in and day out.

But, we don't know for sure now do we?

It's all about going after blacks. You sure don't seem to know the south.

[ProfX]

Here's what we do know.

Yep, it was a 4 person unit with a K9 dog, yes, they searched several vehicles that day, this HBCU bus was not the first they stopped.

I didn't post this from my link, but now:

[from the above Augusta link]

There were several commercial vehicles stopped that morning, including another bus where contraband was located," Bowman said during a news conference. "Due to the nature of the detail, a K9 was part of the stop and an alert was given by the K9.”

Was the Liberty County deputies' stop, search of the Delaware State bus legal?

Bowman said in a follow up interview that the stop was proper, and K9 units were already on the scene.

“It was a four-person unit that was out there, and the K9 unit was one of them," Bowman said in an exclusive interview provided to the Savannah Morning News. "No one had to call for the K9 unit, the dog was already on site. At that point they saw a vehicle, a white bus with dark tinted windows, traveling on I-95 North in the left hand lane, which is a clear violation of Georgia state law.”

[snip][end]

Again, to reiterate, yes a 4 person team with a K9 unit had already stopped several commercial vehicles that day. Yep, the bus was not their first stop. They claim the dog sniffed drugs on the bus - so probable cause. This is not well documented, and it doesn't appear anybody on the bus was told this. Instead, some deputy went through some rigmarole that sounded like an attempt to get consent from the girls, not clear it was actually given, though.

But again, note the problem -- why stop the bus in the first place. There wasn't even a legit traffic violation. It absolutely WAS legal for that bus (not a truck) to be using the left lane. Secondly, next question - what reason was there to bring the K9 over to the bus and "sniff" it?

[Glennfs]

It's all about going after blacks. You sure don't seem to know the south.

It had nothing to do with their race. You think they didn't inspect any white people's equipment that day.
As for the so called inspection. Thet weren't doing safety inspections that was their excuse for stopping buses. They were looking for drugs. It is like the original dui checkpoints where they claimed they were license and insurance checks.

Finally in 31 years o have never seen a loaded bus stopped for a dot inspection.
In

[gounion]

It had nothing to do with their race. You think they didn't inspect any white people's equipment that day.
As for the so called inspection. Thet weren't doing safety inspections that was their excuse for stopping buses. They were looking for drugs. It is like the original dui checkpoints where they claimed they were license and insurance checks.

Finally in 31 years o have never seen a loaded bus stopped for a dot inspection.
In

Yep. Listen to the video - how they talked down to them. They just KNEW that since they'd gotten a bus of black women, they'd all be holding.

And again, you watch the people they have stopped and all their luggage spread out aside the road, they're almost always black.

[bradman]

Here's what we do know.

Yep, it was a 4 person unit with a K9 dog, yes, they searched several vehicles that day, this HBCU bus was not the first they stopped.

I didn't post this from my link, but now:

[from the above Augusta link]

There were several commercial vehicles stopped that morning, including another bus where contraband was located," Bowman said during a news conference. "Due to the nature of the detail, a K9 was part of the stop and an alert was given by the K9.”

Was the Liberty County deputies' stop, search of the Delaware State bus legal?

Bowman said in a follow up interview that the stop was proper, and K9 units were already on the scene.

“It was a four-person unit that was out there, and the K9 unit was one of them," Bowman said in an exclusive interview provided to the Savannah Morning News. "No one had to call for the K9 unit, the dog was already on site. At that point they saw a vehicle, a white bus with dark tinted windows, traveling on I-95 North in the left hand lane, which is a clear violation of Georgia state law.”

[snip][end]

Again, to reiterate, yes a 4 person team with a K9 unit had already stopped several commercial vehicles that day. Yep, the bus was not their first stop. They claim the dog sniffed drugs on the bus - so probable cause. This is not well documented, and it doesn't appear anybody on the bus was told this. Instead, some deputy went through some rigmarole that sounded like an attempt to get consent from the girls, not clear it was actually given, though.

But again, note the problem -- why stop the bus in the first place. There wasn't even a legit traffic violation. It absolutely WAS legal for that bus (not a truck) to be using the left lane. Secondly, next question - what reason was there to bring the K9 over to the bus and "sniff" it?

Unfortunately.......

https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/crimin ... rrant.html
Can the Police Legitimately Search My Vehicle Without a Warrant?

The short answer is: Yes. Police can legally search your car if they have probable cause.

The Fourth Amendment's protection against unlawful search and seizure generally prohibits arbitrary vehicle searches by police. If the police search your car without a warrant, your permission, or a valid reason, they are violating your constitutional rights. Nevertheless, there are some limited situations in which police can search a car without a warrant or your consent.

When it comes to vehicle searches, courts generally give police more leeway compared to when police are attempting to search a residence. This is because, under the "automobile exception" to the search warrant requirement, courts have recognized that individuals have a lower expectation of privacy when driving a car than when they're in their homes.

It’s also worth noting that, while the U.S. Constitution sets the minimum level of protection for an individual's rights, states are free to provide even more protections to an individual’s privacy rights. They could therefore pass laws placing greater restrictions on police when it comes to searching vehicles without a warrant.

The first thing would be to readdress Pennsylvania vs Mimms....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylva ... .%20106%20(1977,to%20the%20United%20States%20Constitution.

Pennsylvania v. Mimms, 434 U.S. 106 (1977), is a United States Supreme Court criminal law decision holding that a police officer ordering a person out of a car following a traffic stop and conducting a pat-down to check for weapons did not violate the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

Some states have gotten totally carried away with "probable cause".

[Glennfs]

Here's what we do know.

Yep, it was a 4 person unit with a K9 dog, yes, they searched several vehicles that day, this HBCU bus was not the first they stopped.

I didn't post this from my link, but now:

[from the above Augusta link]

There were several commercial vehicles stopped that morning, including another bus where contraband was located," Bowman said during a news conference. "Due to the nature of the detail, a K9 was part of the stop and an alert was given by the K9.”

Was the Liberty County deputies' stop, search of the Delaware State bus legal?

Bowman said in a follow up interview that the stop was proper, and K9 units were already on the scene.

“It was a four-person unit that was out there, and the K9 unit was one of them," Bowman said in an exclusive interview provided to the Savannah Morning News. "No one had to call for the K9 unit, the dog was already on site. At that point they saw a vehicle, a white bus with dark tinted windows, traveling on I-95 North in the left hand lane, which is a clear violation of Georgia state law.”

[snip][end]

Again, to reiterate, yes a 4 person team with a K9 unit had already stopped several commercial vehicles that day. Yep, the bus was not their first stop. They claim the dog sniffed drugs on the bus - so probable cause. This is not well documented, and it doesn't appear anybody on the bus was told this. Instead, some deputy went through some rigmarole that sounded like an attempt to get consent from the girls, not clear it was actually given, though.

But again, note the problem -- why stop the bus in the first place. There wasn't even a legit traffic violation. It absolutely WAS legal for that bus (not a truck) to be using the left lane. Secondly, next question - what reason was there to bring the K9 over to the bus and "sniff" it?

To those who don't know in Georgia I-95 is 112ish miles long and runs from the Florida line to the SC line.
I think weed is legal in Florida so many people on buses probably buy some for themselves and friends and family and take it back home.
So these asshole cops are looking for travelers with a small amount of recreational weed on an interstate that is the main drag for real dope peddlers

[gounion]

To those who don't know in Georgia I-95 is 112ish miles long and runs from the Florida line to the SC line.
I think weed is legal in Florida so many people on buses probably buy some for themselves and friends and family and take it back home.
So these asshole cops are looking for travelers with a small amount of recreational weed on an interstate that is the main drag for real dope peddlers

I've read stories that cops in Kansas on I-70 next to Colorado do the same thing, since pot is legal in Colorado.

[ProfX]

It might be legal to do drug and alcohol pre-text stops in Georgia. Look, just read the damn articles; they were not doing a DOT safety check, they were not looking at the brakes, lights, or fuel lines on the bus. I've weighed in on the "should" part, of course. But perhaps it "is" even if it shouldn't be....

Thing is, the law even 'as is' says you need a legit traffic reason to begin the stop. Again, here's the problem: the bus had committed no traffic violation.

MHO: they may not have been able to see the race of the driver or passengers before the stop.

What they did after the vehicle was stopped, well, the extent of the search, now there's the question. At that point the race of the passengers was visible.

[bradman]

It had nothing to do with their race. You think they didn't inspect any white people's equipment that day.
As for the so called inspection. Thet weren't doing safety inspections that was their excuse for stopping buses. They were looking for drugs. It is like the original dui checkpoints where they claimed they were license and insurance checks.

Finally in 31 years o have never seen a loaded bus stopped for a dot inspection.
In

[bold] Me too. Hell, i can't ever remember a bus coach ever being pulled over period.

[ProfX]

https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/crimin ... rrant.html
Can the Police Legitimately Search My Vehicle Without a Warrant?

Answer: not without probable cause or consent.

Something I posted about much earlier in the thread.

Finally, while pre-text stops might be legal, might be the case in Georgia (I don't think they should be, but anyway), the "pre-text" has to begin with a traffic violation, which, in fact, never occurred in this case. The bus did nothing illegal. It had every right to use the left lane.

[ProfX]

I think weed is legal in Florida

Uh, no. Only medicinal. Not recreational.