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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:30 pm 
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+ encourages its residents to shoot eachother upon feeling threatened

Missouri Senate overrides bill allowing concealed carry without a permit

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Missouri Senate lawmakers voted Wednesday to override Gov. Jay Nixon’s veto of the legislation that would eliminate permit requirements to conceal and carry a firearm.

Democrats who expressed fear that the bill would put weapons in the hands of those previously denied permits debated the bill at length, but in the end, the override was approved by a 24-6 vote.

Sen. Maria Chappelle-Nadal, a University City Democrat who spoke against the bill during debate, was not in the chamber when the vote was called, as Senate Republicans used a procedural maneuver to halt the two-hour debate.

The package at hand also included a lifetime concealed carry permit and added provisions for a “stand your ground” law in Missouri, giving people the legal right to defend themselves if they feel threatened.

Nixon has said the bill would make the state less safe and take power away from local law enforcement, who under current law issue permits to citizens who have completed a firearm safety training course and passed a background check.

Getting weapons without training raised a red flag even for gun-friendly Democrats.

“I don’t think it’s a burden to take an eight-hour course to understand the dos and the don’ts, the shoulds and the shouldn’ts, of carrying a loaded firearm,” said Sen. Jason Holsman, a Kansas City Democrat who waved his own concealed carry permit while speaking on the Senate floor.

Sponsoring Sen. Brian Munzlinger, R-Williamstown, said the bill would give law-abiding Missourians the right to conceal and carry in places that..........


http://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article101906277.html

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:44 pm 
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Gun nuts are like children with a toy, they want their god damn toy no matter how many have to die.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:45 pm 
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As stated the American people are too immature and violent to deal with the right to have any weapon.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:49 pm 
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As stated the American people are too immature and violent to deal with the right to have any weapon.


Yep too immature for a 2nd Amendment for sure.

What this 5 cent cigar needs is a good country.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:55 pm 
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the previous article says it has to go to the house but that already happened

http://www.ksdk.com/news/politics/missouri-lawmakers-loosen-gun-laws-with-veto-override-of-sb-656/318985817

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........The Republican-led Legislature enacted the law Wednesday by a 24-6 Senate vote and a 112-41 vote in the House. Both exceeded the two-thirds majority needed to override the veto of Democratic Gov. Jay Nixon..........

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:44 am 
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I support ccw, I never felt need. I do support permit and training requirement.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:23 am 
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I support ccw, I never felt need. I do support permit and training requirement.

Do you also support periodic, documented training every couple of years as a condition for a permit?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:51 am 
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As stated the American people are too immature and violent to deal with the right to have any weapon.


The very person who insists on having a gun, is the very person who should NEVER have one.

Outside of those who live in remote, wilderness areas who live off the land, nobody should have a gun. Cops of course should not and would not need them if we got rid of them.



One group who is going to not agree are minorities, for good reason. Until we stop shooting and imprisoning them for no reason, I get why.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:44 pm 
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Do you also support periodic, documented training every couple of years as a condition for a permit?

I would have no issue with it if a state made it a requirement.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:53 pm 
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almost like they are going out of their way to increase violence and unnecessary killings. I wouldn't wish stand your ground on anyone. Been a disaster in Michigan and Florida.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:14 pm 
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I would have no issue with it if a state made it a requirement.


Do you support the prosecution and incarceration of licensed gun owners who shoot adolescent California sea lions in the face with scatter guns just for shits and giggles?

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Makes me want to bitch-slap the next pissant gunner I see into next week.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:19 pm 
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The very person who insists on having a gun, is the very person who should NEVER have one.

Outside of those who live in remote, wilderness areas who live off the land, nobody should have a gun. Cops of course should not and would not need them if we got rid of them.



One group who is going to not agree are minorities, for good reason. Until we stop shooting and imprisoning them for no reason, I get why.

This is absurd. Do you have any idea what the people I deal with on a daily basis are often charged with? The neighborhoods I go interview people in? I don't carry, but lots of lawyers do. I certainly understand people who live in these neighborhoods.

In the 5 years I've lived where I do, I would estimate there is a shooting within 5 blocks of my home (and often a street or two over) every three months. Sometimes they are just random folks like me or my husband. Again, I don't carry. But you really can't make stupid generalizations about those people who make different decisions than I do being inherently violent.

So that Scout doesn't have to point it out, CCW permit holders are among the least likely to commit a violent criminal offense of any measurable demographic. If what you were saying was true, the evidence would be the EXACT opposite.

So how about we liberals watch our rhetoric? We know Ike can't handle himself on this issue. I don't think I'm like a two year old with a toy for instance, but we've learned that's just the best he is capable of (alternately, he's expressed various forms of the sentiment that he doesn't give a shit). But generally, if you like to complain about Righties ignoring facts, you should hold yourself to the same standard.

It is demonstrably false that CCW holders are the demographic that should be prevented from having guns. Over 90 percent of violent crime is committed by felons, which is why common sense gun regulation should be geared towards keeping guns out of the hands of felons. Not stereotyping law-abiding citizens as violent children indifferent to human suffering.

Because that's bullshit.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:50 pm 
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J_dogg82 wrote:
This is absurd. Do you have any idea what the people I deal with on a daily basis are often charged with? The neighborhoods I go interview people in? I don't carry, but lots of lawyers do. I certainly understand people who live in these neighborhoods.

In the 5 years I've lived where I do, I would estimate there is a shooting within 5 blocks of my home (and often a street or two over) every three months. Sometimes they are just random folks like me or my husband. Again, I don't carry. But you really can't make stupid generalizations about those people who make different decisions than I do being inherently violent.

So that Scout doesn't have to point it out, CCW permit holders are among the least likely to commit a violent criminal offense of any measurable demographic. If what you were saying was true, the evidence would be the EXACT opposite.

So how about we liberals watch our rhetoric? We know Ike can't handle himself on this issue. I don't think I'm like a two year old with a toy for instance, but we've learned that's just the best he is capable of (alternately, he's expressed various forms of the sentiment that he doesn't give a shit). But generally, if you like to complain about Righties ignoring facts, you should hold yourself to the same standard.

It is demonstrably false that CCW holders are the demographic that should be prevented from having guns. Over 90 percent of violent crime is committed by felons, which is why common sense gun regulation should be geared towards keeping guns out of the hands of felons. Not stereotyping law-abiding citizens as violent children indifferent to human suffering.

Because that's bullshit.


that's not true, there's no shortage of people with ccw license committing violent felonies you should know that too. couple of the most recent mass shootings were carried out by ccw holders. things have also gotten worse with training classes and stand your ground not to mention a lot of other idiotic conservative changes to gun laws.


this seems like a fair ruling to me though

Court rules man treated for mental illness can have a gun

Quote:
DETROIT — A Michigan man who can't buy a gun because he was briefly treated for mental health problems in the 1980s has won a key decision from a federal appeals court, which says the burden is on the government to justify a lifetime ban against him.

The Second Amendment case was significant enough for 16 judges on the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to participate. Cases usually are heard only by three-judge panels.

Clifford Tyler, 74, of Hillsdale said his constitutional right to bear arms is violated by a federal law that prohibits gun ownership if someone has been admitted to a mental hospital.

In 1985, Tyler's wife ran away with another man, depleted his finances and filed for divorce. He was deeply upset, and his daughters feared he was a danger to himself.

Tyler was ordered to a hospital for at least two weeks. He subsequently recovered, continued working for another two decades and remarried in 1999.

"There is no indication of the continued risk presented by people who were involuntarily committed many years ago and who have no history of intervening mental illness, criminal activity or substance abuse," Judge Julia Smith Gibbons wrote in the lead opinion.

The court on Thursday sent the case back to the federal court in Grand Rapids where the government must argue the merits of a lifetime ban or the risks of Tyler having a gun.

Gibbons suggests Tyler should prevail, based on..............

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:18 pm 
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I don't like the parts about the stand your ground and castle doctrine.

However I don't care about the concealed carry permits, I don't think that law has ever done a bit of good, and it has been certainly been used for bad. A gun safety course is something I do care about, but should be a requirement of ownership not attached to a carry permit.

It is actually kind of hard to carry a gun anywhere but in your hand, and not violate the concealed part. Which means in a pickup, either the guns have to go into a rack in the rear window, or be placed upon a seat, or on the dash. And those racks are not really made for cars.

It would be safer to put a hand gun into the glove box. Or some other compartment. Rifles travel well wrapped well in a blanket and placed behind the seat in a pickup, or in the trunk in a car.

And furthermore if a gun is not concealed in a vehicle it is very likely to be stolen when the owner goes anywhere without it.



I think the law was thought up a long time ago to be used to suppress undesirable people from carrying a gun, whilst desirable people would not be affected. Desirable and undesirable to be decided by the city fathers and police.

Blacks, Latino, and Native Americans, are examples of people who have been as a group routinely stopped, shaken down, and have served jail and prison terms for an offence which is largely ignored when desirable people do it.

White women are hardly ever dinged for having one in their purse. White men are rarely charged for having one under the seat in their truck. unless they too are deemed as being undesirable, in other words they are poor white ____.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:18 pm 
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that's not true, there's no shortage of people with ccw license committing violent felonies you should know that too. couple of the most recent mass shootings were carried out by ccw holders. things have also gotten worse with training classes and stand your ground not to mention a lot of other idiotic conservative changes to gun laws.

"There's no shortage" is a completely meaningless statement. It asserts there is a quota and we are filling it. There isn't. The initial bullshit claim was that the class of persons who CCW are those who are the most dangerous. The facts show the opposite. You have not shown any evidence here to the contrary.

You say I'm wrong, but then you give this vague statement without any support.
Quote:
It's not necessarily the case that concealed carry permits somehow facilitated these crimes. Having a concealed carry permit doesn't make it any easier to bring, say, a shotgun into a government facility, like the Navy Yard shooter did. But these numbers might add helpful context to the idea that arming more citizens will decrease crime.

<SNIP>

A few things to keep in mind. The first is that despite the media attention, mass shootings are relatively rare events -- especially compared to the tens of thousands of garden variety shootings that happen each year. As Volokh notes, the policy discussion around gun violence should be focused on reducing the larger universe of gun deaths and gun crime, not these relatively isolated incidents.

And the overwhelming majority of people who have a concealed carry permit are responsible law-abiding citizens. They will never be involved in a mass shooting in any capacity, either as a good guy or a bad guy with a gun.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... ince-2007/

I don't know if any mass shooting was actually facilitated by a CCW permit.
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"Combining the data for Florida and Texas data, we find that permit holders are convicted of misdemeanors and felonies at less than a sixth the rate for police officers," Lott writes. "Among police, firearms violations occur at a rate of 16.5 per 100,000 officers. Among permit holders in Florida and Texas, the rate is only 2.4 per 100,000.10 That is just 1/7th of the rate for police officers. But there's no need to focus on Texas and Florida — the data are similar in other states."
http://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php ... 78&EXT=pdf

When you think about this with any logical perspective, it makes perfect sense that CCW permit holders would be law abiding. They are a group defined by their ability to pass some level of background check for past criminality.

From a sociological perspective, even criminals tend to "age out." Rates of recidivism start dropping precipitously at age 25 (a fact the U.S. Supreme Court took judicial notice of when it ruled juveniles are "constitutionally different" for the purposes of sentencing). Some have now questioned the use of incremental sentencing (harsher sentence for each subsequent violation), because right about the time we start locking folks up for a long time, is the point when they would be most susceptible to rehabilitation.

If you take a section of people who are adults, who have not acted criminally in the past, that group is going to be law abiding in comparison to the population at large. "A cross section of adults who have not committed crimes in the past is a cross section least likely to commit crimes in the future." There's an obvious reason for the correlation.

Motor, in the past you have shown you are impervious to facts. You have shown that proclamations are beliefs are more important than evidence. However, if you are going to counter a factual claim with "you are wrong," you should follow it up with more than your meaningless proclamation above.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:54 pm 
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"There's no shortage" is a completely meaningless statement. It asserts there is a quota and we are filling it. There isn't. The initial bullshit claim was that the class of persons who CCW are those who are the most dangerous. The facts show the opposite. You have not shown any evidence here to the contrary.

You say I'm wrong, but then you give this vague statement without any support.

I don't know if any mass shooting was actually facilitated by a CCW permit.

When you think about this with any logical perspective, it makes perfect sense that CCW permit holders would be law abiding. They are a group defined by their ability to pass some level of background check for past criminality.

From a sociological perspective, even criminals tend to "age out." Rates of recidivism start dropping precipitously at age 25 (a fact the U.S. Supreme Court took judicial notice of when it ruled juveniles are "constitutionally different" for the purposes of sentencing). Some have now questioned the use of incremental sentencing (harsher sentence for each subsequent violation), because right about the time we start locking folks up for a long time, is the point when they would be most susceptible to rehabilitation.

If you take a section of people who are adults, who have not acted criminally in the past, that group is going to be law abiding in comparison to the population at large. "A cross section of adults who have not committed crimes in the past is a cross section least likely to commit crimes in the future." There's an obvious reason for the correlation.

Motor, in the past you have shown you are impervious to facts. You have shown that proclamations are beliefs are more important than evidence. However, if you are going to counter a factual claim with "you are wrong," you should follow it up with more than your meaningless proclamation above.
You tell 'em. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:59 pm 
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J_dogg82 wrote:
"There's no shortage" is a completely meaningless statement. It asserts there is a quota and we are filling it. There isn't. The initial bullshit claim was that the class of persons who CCW are those who are the most dangerous. The facts show the opposite. You have not shown any evidence here to the contrary.

You say I'm wrong, but then you give this vague statement without any support.


never implied a quota. plenty of stuff out there you can look up from news reports but also that you can see as an attourney.

J_dogg82 wrote:
It's not necessarily the case that concealed carry permits somehow facilitated these crimes. Having a concealed carry permit doesn't make it any easier to bring, say, a shotgun into a government facility, like the Navy Yard shooter did. But these numbers might add helpful context to the idea that arming more citizens will decrease crime.


never said anything about ccw facilitating just that it does not make one immune to behaving badly or committing crimes and that's the argument your trying to defend.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:28 am 
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I don't like the parts about the stand your ground and castle doctrine.

However I don't care about the concealed carry permits, I don't think that law has ever done a bit of good, and it has been certainly been used for bad. A gun safety course is something I do care about, but should be a requirement of ownership not attached to a carry permit.

It is actually kind of hard to carry a gun anywhere but in your hand, and not violate the concealed part. Which means in a pickup, either the guns have to go into a rack in the rear window, or be placed upon a seat, or on the dash. And those racks are not really made for cars.

It would be safer to put a hand gun into the glove box. Or some other compartment. Rifles travel well wrapped well in a blanket and placed behind the seat in a pickup, or in the trunk in a car.

And furthermore if a gun is not concealed in a vehicle it is very likely to be stolen when the owner goes anywhere without it.



I think the law was thought up a long time ago to be used to suppress undesirable people from carrying a gun, whilst desirable people would not be affected. Desirable and undesirable to be decided by the city fathers and police.

Blacks, Latino, and Native Americans, are examples of people who have been as a group routinely stopped, shaken down, and have served jail and prison terms for an offence which is largely ignored when desirable people do it.

White women are hardly ever dinged for having one in their purse. White men are rarely charged for having one under the seat in their truck. unless they too are deemed as being undesirable, in other words they are poor white ____.


yea the benefits of ccw are the gun safety training and being taught what the law is and how you are expected to behave according to it. The process of who qualifies is a whole other issue that mirrors things like how our justice system works, how communities are policed and things like that. but the license itself is no determinant of whether someone will likely adhere to the rules.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:14 am 
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Withdrawn by poster.

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Last edited by J_dogg82 on Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:43 am 
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Responsible Gun Owner Leaves Gun Out, Toddler Shoots Self

Another Responsible Gun Owner Leaves His Loaded Gun Out, Now His 5 YO Daughter Is Dead

Responsible Gun Owner Shoots, Kills Girlfriend's Baby While Cleaning Gun

Responsible Gun Owner Shows Off Gun, Accidentally Shoots Daughter

Responsible Gun Owner Attempts Movie Gun Trick, Shoots Sister Dead At Her Birthday Party

Tragic Gun Accident™ By Responsible Gun Owner Kills Her 8-Year-Old

Responsible Gun Owner Shoots Himself In The Face While Cleaning Gun On Thanksgiving

Responsible Gun Owner Leaves Kids Alone In Car With Loaded Gun - You'll never guess what happens next!

Responsible Gun Owner Shoots Self While At The Movies

Responsible Gun Owner Shoots Self While Shooting Selfie

Responsible Gun Owner Of The Day Was Showing Off His Gun When He Shot Himself In The Head

Responsible Gun Owner Killed During Drunken Dispute At Anti-Obama Meeting

Responsible Gun Owner Rushes To Carjacking Victim's Rescue, Shoots Him In The Head

Responsible Gun Owner Shops With Loaded Gun In Purse, 2-Year-Old Finds It And Kills Her

Responsible Gun Owner Dies After Holding Gun While Using Walker

Responsible Gun Owner Charged After 7 Y.O. Shoots Herself Playing With Mommy's Gun

Responsible Gun Owner Shoots Up Neighborhood Because He Could

Responsible Gun Owner Threatens To Shoot Man Defending A Waitress

Toddler Dead After Responsible Gun Owner Leaves Loaded Rifle In Daycare

Another Responsible Gun Owner Kills Baby Sister With His New Rifle

Teacher Who's A Responsible Gun Owner Accidentally Shoots The Toilet In School Restroom

Responsible Gun Owner Kills Iraqi Newlywed Taking Pictures Of Snow

Responsible Gun Owner Shoots 2-year-old Daughter

Responsible Gun Owner Accidentally Shoots Newborn While Hunting

Responsible Gun Owner Jose Canseco Shoots His Finger Off

Yet Another Responsible Gun Owner Shoots His Own Penis

Responsible Gun Owner's 2-Year-Old Shoots Himself In Head In Another Tragic Accident

Responsible Gun Owner Leaves Weapon In Glove Box, Toddler Dead

Responsible Gun Owner Confesses To Fatal Road Rage Shooting Of 4-Year-Old

Responsible Gun Owners Unsure How Toddler Was Shot

‘Responsible Gun Owner’ Threatens To Shoot 9-Year-Old Daughter For Stepping On His Dog’s Tail (Video)

Responsible Gun Owner Shot, Killed Herself While Adjusting Her Holster

NJ Responsible Gun Owner Actually Prosecuted In Child-On-Child Shooting Death

Responsible Gun Owner's 3-Year-Old Fatally Shoots Her In The Head

Responsible Gun Owner Accidentally Shoots 9-Month-old In Head

Responsible Gun Owner Accidentally Second-Amendments Toddler Daughter

Another Responsible Gun Owner Kills Nearby Woman With Stray Bullet

Responsible Florida Gun Owner Mistakes Wife For Intruder, Shoots Her In The Face

Responsible Gun Owner 'Accidentally' Hits Her Baby While Aiming For Dad

Responsible Gun Owner Of The Day Shoots Herself In The Face While Making A Point

Another Responsible Gun Owner Shoots Artillery Shell Through House 3 Miles Away

Responsible Gun Owner Of The Day Has Birthday Surprise For Friend

Another Responsible Gun Owner Accidentally Kills Father Of Newborn

Tuxedoed Gun Owner Shoots At Bystanders After His BJ Is Rudely Interrupted

Fun With Guns: Armadillo Revenge Edition

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:52 am 
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WTF does any of that have to do with the original claim that "The very person who insists on having a gun, is the very person who should NEVER have one?"

Can you explain that? No? Didn't think so.

It's like the LW radicals are really convinced that negligent handling of firearms is proof CCW permit holders are violent.

Except I know they don't actually believe that. They are just stunned by the fact that some lefty is attacking their orthodoxy of stereotypes.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:21 am 
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WTF does any of that have to do with the original claim that "The very person who insists on having a gun, is the very person who should NEVER have one?"

Can you explain that? No? Didn't think so.

It's like the LW radicals are really convinced that negligent handling of firearms is proof CCW permit holders are violent.

Except I know they don't actually believe that. They are just stunned by the fact that some lefty is attacking their orthodoxy of stereotypes.

Sometimes, when people use hyperbole, it's easier on one to just let it go. Fussing about something that won't affect the election seems a waste of time, energy and mental health.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:01 am 
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Sometimes, when people use hyperbole, it's easier on one to just let it go. Fussing about something that won't affect the election seems a waste of time, energy and mental health.

So, to be clear, you only measure worthwhile posts based upon their potential effect on the upcoming election?

Well I think that the way the Left insists on talking down about gun owners has a perpetual effect on the election.

If it were just "hyperbole," then there wouldn't be repeated attempts my motor to assert I am wrong after correcting the assertion.

No. I don't believe that you are anyone else is obfuscating here because it won't effect the election. I am challenging LW stereotypes. That never goes over well. While the Left (thankfully) gets up in arms over slander and libel against minority American groups that tend to vote blue, they are exceedingly tolerant of slander and libel against perceived Republicans.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:26 am 
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I have to back up jdogg here. Of course, what he says makes sense. I work with several CCW holders. None of them are right-wing. All of them practice gun safety. I strongly believe in the right to own a gun, but I also believe in reasonable regulations of weapons, and the need to license them, so we can track them when they get into the wrong hands.

If one becomes a CCW holder, it says - to some degree, anyway - that they are wanting to comply with the laws of this nation. The people that don't have CCW but have guns anyway are the ones that have no interest in obeying the law.

S'toon, I looked at your first two links, neither stated the gun owners were CCW holders. So, what exactly is your argument?

Now, to push back a bit on Justin, just a bit - George Zimmerman was a CCW holder. So, just being a CCW holder doesn't mean you've got it for all the right reasons, now, does it? My problem with a CCW permit is that I feel many people who get them do so because they want the opportunity to take the law into their own hands.

But you point is well-taken that that minority is far outnumbered by criminals who have guns that don't give a shit about the law. We should probably concentrate on those folks first.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:39 am 
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Arrests of CPL holders spike as permits in Michigan hit record high

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........As CPL holders in Michigan have increased to a record number, arrests for violent crimes committed by those gun owners has gone up.

From 2004 to 2014, the number of CPLs in Michigan increased from 110,777 to 440,006, a 297 percent increase.

During that same time period, violent crime charges — which include murder, rape, robbery and assault crimes — against CPL holders annually increased from 34 to 232, a 582 percent jump, according to Michigan State Police statistics.

As of this month, Michigan boasts a record high 516,612 CPL holders, that's 12 times more than a decade ago...........


Two Michigan Drivers Shoot and Kill Each Other After Road Rage Incident

Quote:
.......Police told ABC News that they cannot release information about who fired their weapon first.

Taylor had a misdemeanor conviction in 2006 for driving while intoxicated and separately for carrying a gun in the car, Ionia County Prosecutor Robert Schafer told ABC News. As a result, his concealed weapons license was revoked for three years. He eventually applied and received a new license four years later in 2010, Schafer said.

Michael Wood, the owner of the Wonder Wand Car Wash, told ABC News that he also has a concealed license permit, just like the two drivers did, but never carries a gun with him.........

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