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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:12 pm 
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WHY ISRAEL IS SPENDING $800 MILLION ON A HIDDEN NEW WALL

http://www.newsweek.com/why-israel-spen ... aza-649736

I read this article and saw a photo of a brand new machine which is very similar to the machines used for Boston's big dig project which is used to pour concrete walls in a trench filled with standing water, and my jaw dropped, OH MY!



The answer given in that newsweek article is not the real answer for why Israel is building a new hidden wall around Gaza.

The article says: "The $800 million barrier will stretch across the country’s 40-mile frontier with the territory, measuring 19 feet high, but also delving 131 feet underground, principally to counter the threat of attack tunnels dug by Hamas."

They say they are building that wall a 131 feet underground in standing water to stop tunnel digging!



I don't believe that for an instant. They are building that damned wall to cut the aquifer which feeds the water wells in the Gaza strip.



I found and read a Gaza strip hydology report to be sure: https://www.scribd.com/document/2725394 ... -Hydrology

Quoting a few parts from that report:

Quote:
"The layered stratigraphy of the Kurkar Group within the Gaza Strip subdivides the coastal aquifer into 4 separate subaquifers near the coast. Further east, the marine clays pinch out and the coastal aquifer can be regarded as one hydrogeological unit. The upper subaquifer “A” is unconfined, whereas subaquifers “B1, B2, and C” become increasingly confined towards the sea."

"The thickness of the entire coastal aquifer sequence at the coastline is on average about 120 m. At the eastern Gaza border, the saturated thickness is about 60 m in the north,and only 5-10 m in the south near Rafah. Localized perched conditions may exist in the unsaturated zone throughout the Gaza Strip, due to the presence of shallow fluvial and limnic clays."

"Agricultural wells are mostly drilled and installed as large diameter boreholes (<2.5 m) to the water table (using regular excavation techniques and placing caissons in the subsurface), and as drilled holes (<10-inch) thereafter to total depth. Most agricultural wells in Gaza are shallow and extend only a few meters (5-15) below the groundwater table, tapping almost exclusively Subaquifer “A”""

------

"There are an estimated 4,000 wells within the Gaza Strip. Almost all of these are privately owned and used for agricultural purposes. Approximately 110 wells are owned and operated by individual municipalities and are used for domestic supply. The average density of wells per km2 is about 5. In some areas north of Gaza City, the density of wells is greater than 20 per km2."

------

"Agricultural wells are mostly drilled and installed as large diameter boreholes (<2.5 m) to the water table (using regular excavation techniques and placing caissons in the subsurface), and as drilled holes (<10-inch) thereafter to total depth. Most agricultural wells in Gaza are shallow and extend only a few meters (5-15) below the groundwater table, tapping almost exclusively Subaquifer “A”."

------

"Municipal wells are deeper, and may tap Subaquifers A, B1, and B2 depending on location and distance from the coast. Municipal wells are typically screened through out their lengths from the water table and down, and are not selectively screened across individual subaquifers. Hence, subaquifers are hydraulically connected in places(including near the coast)."

------

"Regional groundwater flow is toward the Mediterranean Sea. However, natural flow patterns have been disturbed by pumping and artificial recharge. Within the Gaza Strip,large cones of depression have formed over the past 40 years within the Gaza, KhanYounis, and Rafah governorates."



There's a Fig.3. Calibrated Average Water Level Contour Map in that report. For most of the border area the water level is 2 to 3 meters below the surface. To the south it increases to about 10 meters for about one quarter of the length of the border. That is the area where the aquifer is the thinnest though.

A 131 foot deep subterranean wall will extend down about 40 meters. Well below the water level and through the thickness of the aquifer for all of the border except for a section to the north where the aquifer is the thickest. Even there a wall extending down 40 meters into an aquifer 60 meters thick will impede the subsurface flow significantly in its migration toward the Mediterranean sea.

The report talks a lot about salt migrating into that aquifer already due to the degree that it is pumped to support all too many people. Shutting or greatly impeding off the aquifer recharge from the inland side will increase the migration of salt fouling the remaining water supply even more.


I'm upset by this news. :|


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:56 pm 
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Pending further information, I'm inclined to agree on this one. The ruling clique in Israel wants to starve Gaza out, and cutting off the water would be a logical part of the policy. It's a tragedy, because Israel is better than this.

Such a wall might stop the tunnels too. Win-win. Now, will Bibi hit Adelson up for another billion and build a wall in the sky that stops homemade rockets?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:19 pm 
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This is the machine which caused my jaw to drop. Seeing one of these in a dry inland setting is odd to say the least. It's not the setting where one usually needs to pour a concrete retaining wall under water in a slurry stabilized deep trench.

Image

The big machine is a slurry wall excavator.

This is a depiction of the whole construction slurry wall system, showing how the excavator is used.

Image


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:27 pm 
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In that depiction in my post above bentonite slurry is mentioned. Bentonite clay is soil stop leak. It penetrates into porous soils somewhat and fills the porous spaces making the soils impenetrable for water. It's permanent.

Once they excavate with a bentonite slurry the damage to the aquifer is done. The aquifer will have been permanently divided. They could back fill it with soil and a water impenetrable wall would exist cutting the flow of water from one side to the other.

On the Israeli side the aquifers water table will rise and they will be flush with water from now on. This is grand theft water. It's in violation of Jewish oral law.

"A spring which flows beyond the area of the spring itself is considered to be the same as rivers and the sea, to be in the public domain." -- Tosefta Bava Kamma 6:4


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:00 pm 
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I found this to support my claim about the slurry trench system Israel is using to build the underground wall in a Times of Israel article:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/revealing- ... spark-war/

Quote:
In order to construct the underground barrier, the workers are using a German hydromill, a powerful piece of drilling equipment that cuts deep, narrow trenches into the earth.

In addition to opening up the ground where the barrier will be constructed, the hydromill is also expected to expose any previously undiscovered or newly dug Hamas tunnels that enter Israeli territory.

The space left behind by the hydromill — and any Hamas tunnels that get in the way — is then filled with a substance known as bentonite, a type of absorbent clay that expands when it touches water.

This is meant to prevent the trenches from collapsing, but also has the additional benefit of indicating the presence of a tunnel, as the bentonite would quickly drain into it.

Workers then pour regular concrete into the trench. Metal cages with sensors attached are then lowered into the concrete for additional support.


It has this photo:

Image

The photo link says it's a "Slurry_Wall_Hydromill_In_Tel_Aviv": http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/20 ... l_Aviv.jpg

The article doesn't quite have the details of how it works correctly stated, "The space left behind by the hydromill — and any Hamas tunnels that get in the way — is then filled with a substance known as bentonite, a type of absorbent clay that expands when it touches water."

The hydromill operates immersed in the bentonite slurry, the earth the mill grinds up is removed from the trench by circulating the slurry from the trench into a slurry mud pond where the earth settles out, and then the slurry is returned to the trench. It's the same method drillers use for round holes in oil and gas drilling. In the oil field the slurry is called mud.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:56 am 
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They say they are building that wall a 131 feet underground in standing water to stop tunnel digging!



I don't believe that for an instant. They are building that damned wall to cut the aquifer which feeds the water wells in the Gaza strip.


Feh. One Jew's opinion. Perhaps if you were a Jew who was living in a border neighborhood where the government chosen by the people next door was promising to wipe all your kind off the face of the earth and routinely lobbing mortar rounds into your kid's turtle pool in the back yard, you might be a Jew with a different opinion.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:35 pm 
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Feh. One Jew's opinion. Perhaps if you were a Jew who was living in a border neighborhood where the government chosen by the people next door was promising to wipe all your kind off the face of the earth and routinely lobbing mortar rounds into your kid's turtle pool in the back yard, you might be a Jew with a different opinion.


Would there be any reason they couldn't stop short of the aquifers? i mean, after all, it would be damn near impossible to build a tunnel in an aquifer.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Would there be any reason they couldn't stop short of the aquifers? i mean, after all, it would be damn near impossible to build a tunnel in an aquifer.


Maybe. Who can say? Who can say how deep the aquifer is in the area. Who can say what the potability is at what depths. How deep is the confined aquifer...how deep is the unconfined aquifer? Who TF knows, so who can say? The fact that the area has been extensively and successfully tunneled for decades seems to suggest that the aquifers in the area are below the depth where the tunnels were dug. There's a whole lot of worked up outrage in this thread along with a whole lot of accusations of genocidal intent without a whole lot of information supporting it.

Nothing new for this joint. Particularly when it comes to the Israelis.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:21 pm 
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It's not Israel, which is better than this. It's the Bibi cabal. He's their version of drumpf, kept in place by the global reach of billionaires, and using all the usual methods to advance clearly illegal policies to benefit the influential few and their largely right wing supremacist followers.

Israel is fine. A defense against the tunnels is fine. Going after terrorists who fire rockets is fine. Maintaining an aggressive national defense is fine. Counter-intelligence is fine. Counter-terrorism is fine.

Cutting off an aquifer, which is against at least some interpretations of traditional Jewish law, not to mention every human rights treaty ever signed, is not fine. I don't know if that's what they're doing, since tunnels are on occasion a real problem, but Sam made a good case.

I don't know enough to say any more.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:07 pm 
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Maybe. Who can say? Who can say how deep the aquifer is in the area. Who can say what the potability is at what depths. How deep is the confined aquifer...how deep is the unconfined aquifer? Who TF knows, so who can say? The fact that the area has been extensively and successfully tunneled for decades seems to suggest that the aquifers in the area are below the depth where the tunnels were dug. There's a whole lot of worked up outrage in this thread along with a whole lot of accusations of genocidal intent without a whole lot of information supporting it.

Nothing new for this joint. Particularly when it comes to the Israelis.

i promised myself that i'd avoid discussing lawns and Israel with you. ;) :rw) But what the hell.

ZoWie made some good points in the above post as have you. There is not enough information yet.

Out of curiosity though......What would you say, Ike, if the wall did cut off aquifers?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:58 pm 
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Would there be any reason they couldn't stop short of the aquifers? i mean, after all, it would be damn near impossible to build a tunnel in an aquifer.


It is an unconfined aquifer. Which is to say it begins on the surface and extends down to some depth, whereupon it lays on a eocene chalk and limestone layer which provided a nearly impenetrable bottom. From the hydrology report I have quoted that bottom is covered by saturated aquifer thickness as described at the eastern Gaza border as:

"The thickness of the entire coastal aquifer sequence at the coastline is on average about 120 m. At the eastern Gaza border, the saturated thickness is about 60 m in the north,and only 5-10 m in the south near Rafah.

That is the height of the water table at the top, down to the bottom where the chalk and limestone layer is found. Above that is the unsaturated aquifer, from the surface down to the water table.

From that same hydrology report that unsaturated layer is described visually from a contour map showing the depth at which the watertable is located below the surface. Perhaps that image will hot load from a Scribd document:

Image

If not the link to it is here: https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/4plbbk ... 6e4654.jpg

To determine how much of the aquifer will be cut and closed off by that wall one would subtract that unsaturated layer from 40 meters, the depth of the wall, and then take the remainder as being the depth to which the aquifer is pinched off.

In the north east corner that depth rises to about 5 meters, but drops off quickly going both toward the sea to the west and south toward Rafah such that I think it would average along the north south section of the wall about 1 to 2 to 3 meters in depth. To the south there is a place where the wall jogs to the east some and where that wall completes that jog there is a corner where the map suggests that the depth there is 13 meters, but once again that depth to water drops off quickly in both directions. From that jog corner further south the depth seems to average perhaps 8 meters toward the south east corner of Gaza.

Which is to say from the north down to the south for about 2/3 of the length of Gaza that wall will extend down into the saturated water bearing part of the aquifer down to 37 to 39 meters. Along the remaining north south length of Gaza the wall will extend down into the saturated water bearing part of the aquifer down to 32 meters.

Along that southern most third that wall footing will extend well into that eocene chalk and limestone layer, completely cutting that section off. And as the report said:

"At the eastern Gaza border, the saturated thickness is about 60 m in the north,and only 5-10 m in the south near Rafah."

That would imply that it is 30 meters in the middle. The point at which 37 meters would be reached would be about 2/3 of the way north along the Gaza border. That is the point at which the wall would not completely close off that aquifer. Beyond that point the wall would certainly significantly impede water migration toward the sea, but might not completely close it off.

That news week article gave the depth of the wall as being 131 feet or 40 meters. Is that the average depth or is that an average depth around all of Gaza? Other reports, most of them, give that depth of the wall as a number which the government will not disclose.




I want to speculate!

If we were to assume that they are going to dig that wall down to the eocene chalk and limestone layer as a footer. Interestingly enough the average depth of the wall going all the way around Gaza would come out to be roughly 40 meters. Now that is of course speculation.

This is not speculation, this is a huge project and there is no sign I have found of there being an environmental impact statement being made public about it. And it is also not speculation that every time this slurry wall system is used in America on anything close to the scale of this project an environmental impact statement is a key element because such a wall is in essence and in fact a below ground water dam. Such a wall is never built unless that is the point of it.

In Boston these walls were placed to dam off the water from the harbor so they could dig those freeway tunnels. In New York city these wall are built so they can dig a deep foundation pit to set a skyscraper in. They usually push them down all the way to bedrock.

Around Gaza the border, bedrock is that eocene chalk and limestone layer. Found at an average of 40 meters deep.

So this part is speculation!

Is it fair to speculate in the absence of an environmental impact statement, and a government which has been not disclosing the details of that wall's depth to the bulk of the members of the press?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:45 pm 
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i promised myself that i'd avoid discussing lawns and Israel with you. ;) :rw) But what the hell.

ZoWie made some good points in the above post as have you. There is not enough information yet.

Out of curiosity though......What would you say, Ike, if the wall did cut off aquifers?


What did Americans say about the bombing of Dresden? I'm guessing they said something like...what goes around comes around. How does anybody justify or rstionalize what war does to all thise involved? Plenty of us who were in the military don't understand tiday how we were able to accept all sorts of acts and behavior of a whole bunch of our brothers in SE Asia. But we did.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:18 pm 
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It's not Israel, which is better than this. It's the Bibi cabal. He's their version of drumpf, kept in place by the global reach of billionaires, and using all the usual methods to advance clearly illegal policies to benefit the influential few and their largely right wing supremacist followers.

Israel is fine. A defense against the tunnels is fine. Going after terrorists who fire rockets is fine. Maintaining an aggressive national defense is fine. Counter-intelligence is fine. Counter-terrorism is fine.

Cutting off an aquifer, which is against at least some interpretations of traditional Jewish law, not to mention every human rights treaty ever signed, is not fine. I don't know if that's what they're doing, since tunnels are on occasion a real problem, but Sam made a good case.

I don't know enough to say any more.


Thanks for the complement.

I don't know why you would need to say more, what you've said is sufficient. If you had knowledge of a more complete mapping of the subsurface hydrology that would help me firm up the theory. That's where the theory is weak. If I had real plans of the project to look at that would also help.

I do know the Israelis have that information in both cases. They bored many holes all around gaza looking for those tunnels. I'm sure they logged the location, made note of the strata, and depth of those layers from those holes while they were drilling them. That would provide the hydrology information I need. That borehole data would also be the basis upon which they would have draw the construction plans if what I suspect is true.



I think I recall you saying you were an investigative reporter at one time. If you have any pointers to share about investigating that might help. Or a tip if I get this firmed up more as to who would like to take it from there and make a story about it. I would give what I have found so far away to such a reporter without expecting any mention in such an article or return.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:31 pm 
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What did Americans say about the bombing of Dresden? I'm guessing they said something like...what goes around comes around. How does anybody justify or rstionalize what war does to all thise involved? Plenty of us who were in the military don't understand tiday how we were able to accept all sorts of acts and behavior of a whole bunch of our brothers in SE Asia. But we did.


i guess that's one way to look at it. Although, if we compare it to Dresden and WWII.... Why wouldn't Israel just have it over with, pull all the stops, and just bomb them off the map. They have the power to do it.

Wouldn't it be more fair to compare the Israeli conflict to say........Manifest Destiny?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:18 pm 
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i guess that's one way to look at it. Although, if we compare it to Dresden and WWII.... Why wouldn't Israel just have it over with, pull all the stops, and just bomb them off the map. They have the power to do it.


No shit. I suspect they don't because all the Israelis want is for their pacifist neighbors who only want peace to leave them TF alone.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:30 pm 
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Egypt doesn't want Gaza and has the same barriers against Gaza that Israel does.

When's the next election in Gaza?

Nobody wants Gaza. Thanks Hamas!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:13 pm 
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Egypt doesn't want Gaza and has the same barriers against Gaza that Israel does.

When's the next election in Gaza?

Nobody wants Gaza. Thanks Hamas!


Egypt already has a steel version of a cofferdam driven underground with piledrivers. I wasn't placed there to prevent water flow through it, but if it was driven deep enough it would. It runs parallel with any flow so it probably doesn't adversely affect water volume on one side or the other of that border, as the water which is there flows underground toward the sea.

That kind of cofferdam is not permanent. It can be extracted, or be allowed to rust away.

This new wall will be a permanent geological feature until the end of time. Even if the concreter part of the wall is removed the bentonite clay will be left there extending feet outward on both sides clogging the soils.

This is more than winning over an adversary, this is like salting the earth to spoil it.

Israel could in the future pump water over or through the wall to reclaim that aquifer and the productivity of that land. But that is an artificial measure requiring pumps, and it wouldn't be feasible for people living on the gaza side to do unless the people on the Israeli side agree to allow it.

It sets up a hydraulic empire. At one time Egypt had and enjoyed a hydraulic empire over their surroundings, that was biblical.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:03 pm 
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Israelis know as long as there is an Israel their pacifist neighbors who only want peace will never leave them TF alone. It will last longer than any wall.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:11 pm 
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Egypt already has a steel version of a cofferdam driven underground with piledrivers. I wasn't placed there to prevent water flow through it, but if it was driven deep enough it would. It runs parallel with any flow so it probably doesn't adversely affect water volume on one side or the other of that border, as the water which is there flows underground toward the sea.

That kind of cofferdam is not permanent. It can be extracted, or be allowed to rust away.

This new wall will be a permanent geological feature until the end of time. Even if the concreter part of the wall is removed the bentonite clay will be left there extending feet outward on both sides clogging the soils.

This is more than winning over an adversary, this is like salting the earth to spoil it.

Israel could in the future pump water over or through the wall to reclaim that aquifer and the productivity of that land. But that is an artificial measure requiring pumps, and it wouldn't be feasible for people living on the gaza side to do unless the people on the Israeli side agree to allow it.

It sets up a hydraulic empire. At one time Egypt had and enjoyed a hydraulic empire over their surroundings, that was biblical.


Right. Okay, but when's the next election in Gaza?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:23 pm 
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Right. Okay, but when's the next election in Gaza?


Right after the next series of street executions and dragging the corpses around the streets of Gaza City behind a fleet of rice burners.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:37 am 
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No shit. I suspect they don't because all the Israelis want is for their pacifist neighbors who only want peace to leave them TF alone.

My first observation was correct. Lawns and Israel it is. i won't make the same mistake. Sorry if i upset you.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:47 am 
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Egypt already has a steel version of a cofferdam driven underground with piledrivers. I wasn't placed there to prevent water flow through it, but if it was driven deep enough it would. It runs parallel with any flow so it probably doesn't adversely affect water volume on one side or the other of that border, as the water which is there flows underground toward the sea.

That kind of cofferdam is not permanent. It can be extracted, or be allowed to rust away.

This new wall will be a permanent geological feature until the end of time. Even if the concreter part of the wall is removed the bentonite clay will be left there extending feet outward on both sides clogging the soils.

This is more than winning over an adversary, this is like salting the earth to spoil it.

Israel could in the future pump water over or through the wall to reclaim that aquifer and the productivity of that land. But that is an artificial measure requiring pumps, and it wouldn't be feasible for people living on the gaza side to do unless the people on the Israeli side agree to allow it.

It sets up a hydraulic empire. At one time Egypt had and enjoyed a hydraulic empire over their surroundings, that was biblical.

Thanks for bringing it up. It made for some rather interesting reading the last couple days. i'm fairly well schooled on the ongoing Israeli conflict but was rather lacking on the subject of water rights. Further reading is required.

If your speculation proves to be correct.......It wouldn't be the first time Israel has violated the Oslo Accords on the matter.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:37 am 
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The Egyptians have already been accused of staunching the aquifer.

So sayeth the Green Prophet. That was in 2010.

Egypt's Anti-Smuggling Wall Will Cause Major Damage to Gaza's Aquifer
https://www.greenprophet.com/2010/02/wa ... er-damage/

Dunno, from what I've read, the UN & World Bank were already predicting the Gaza aquifer would be unusable by last year. I'm not saying that's a good thing. I am saying it might be too late to figure Israel's project is to do in something that appears already finished.

If I could make a further point, perhaps it would be wiser for the current de facto government of the strip to focus more effort on desalination and water resources than on underground tunnels to launch attacks on Israel.

Just saying.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:49 am 
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The Egyptians have already been accused of staunching the aquifer.

So sayeth the Green Prophet. That was in 2010.

Egypt's Anti-Smuggling Wall Will Cause Major Damage to Gaza's Aquifer
https://www.greenprophet.com/2010/02/wa ... er-damage/

Dunno, from what I've read, the UN & World Bank were already predicting the Gaza aquifer would be unusable by last year. I'm not saying that's a good thing. I am saying it might be too late to figure Israel's project is to do in something that appears already finished.

If I could make a further point, perhaps it would be wiser for the current de facto government of the strip to focus more effort on desalination and water resources than on underground tunnels to launch attacks on Israel.

Just saying.


Concrete needs water.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:22 am 
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My first observation was correct. Lawns and Israel it is. i won't make the same mistake. Sorry if i upset you.


No worries. I wasn't upset with you at all. You make reasonable inquiries and ask legitimate questions. Sorry if my reply upset you. Just stating how I see this situation.

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White vote 58% Trump...6 of 10 white Americans are scum. Officially ashamed of my race.


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