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 Post subject: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:37 pm 
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Since the NFL protests have begun I have always been for the kneeling because I think it is a classy way to get across the message. On the other hand I have always contended that because the players are at work their employer could legally prevent them from kneeling. The same way my employer could tell me to take a political sign off of my truck.

Then today I was listening to Joe Madison who informed his audience of a 1943 SCOTUS ruling that said no U.S. citizen could be compelled to stand for or recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Which of course any person with half a brain could see would also include the National Anthem.

The opinion was written by Associate Justice Robert Jackson. The "Black Eagle" suggested to his listeners anyone who that was should look him up. Which I did, Justice Jackson was the Chief Prosecutor at the Nuremburg Trials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_H._Jackson

So on one hand the NFL owners are within their rights to prevent their employees from protesting while at work. They have no right to force their employees to stand for the National Anthem. As it is decided law since 1943.

Even at the height of WWII our SCOTUS ruled it to be against a person rights to be forced to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virg ... ._Barnette

Here is a link to the court case.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:46 pm 
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Since the NFL protests have begun I have always been for the kneeling because I think it is a classy way to get across the message. On the other hand I have always contended that because the players are at work their employer could legally prevent them from kneeling. The same way my employer could tell me to take a political sign off of my truck.

Then today I was listening to Joe Madison who informed his audience of a 1943 SCOTUS ruling that said no U.S. citizen could be compelled to stand for or recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Which of course any person with half a brain could see would also include the National Anthem.

The opinion was written by Associate Justice Robert Jackson. The "Black Eagle" suggested to his listeners anyone who that was should look him up. Which I did, Justice Jackson was the Chief Prosecutor at the Nuremburg Trials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_H._Jackson

So on one hand the NFL owners are within their rights to prevent their employees from protesting while at work. They have no right to force their employees to stand for the National Anthem. As it is decided law since 1943.

Even at the height of WWII our SCOTUS ruled it to be against a person rights to be forced to do so.


in my opinion your wrong in thinking employer/employee relationship is more important than unnecessary killing of black people.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:48 pm 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

Here is a link to the court case.


You're not wrong. No one can compel you to stand or take the pledge on your own time. I do think an employer can require you to stand respectively during the national anthem while you are in uniform, in front of customers and are at work. I doubt seriously they can compel you to take the pledge or sing on the job. I don't think most people would agree with that even though it appears a great many folks would ask or agree that a minimum amount of respect (such as standing respectfully) for the nations flag and anthem should be shown.

Maybe a lawyer on the board can further clarify.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:50 pm 
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in my opinion your wrong in thinking employer/employee relationship is more important than unnecessary killing of black people.


I am not saying that at all. But, my employer does have the right to govern my actions while at work. Especially when a persons job causes them to personally interact with the companies customer base.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:53 pm 
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You're not wrong. No one can compel you to stand or take the pledge on your own time. I do think an employer can require you to stand respectively during the national anthem while you are in uniform, in front of customers and are at work. I doubt seriously they can compel you to take the pledge or sing on the job. I don't think most people would agree with that even though it appears a great many folks would ask or agree that a minimum amount of respect (such as standing respectfully) for the nations flag and anthem should be shown.

Maybe a lawyer on the board can further clarify.



I see no difference between the Pledge or the Anthem in this context. If a player was a J.W. the NFL could not force that player to stand. I think it is pretty much cut and dried. An employer can prevent you from disrespecting symbols but, they can't force you to stand for them either.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:29 pm 
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Since the players have a union, they have rights on the job. Without a union, you can be ordered to do anything and fired if you refuse.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:55 pm 
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I see no difference between the Pledge or the Anthem in this context. If a player was a J.W. the NFL could not force that player to stand. I think it is pretty much cut and dried. An employer can prevent you from disrespecting symbols but, they can't force you to stand for them either.


J.W.? not sure what that means.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:21 pm 
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J.W.? not sure what that means.


Jehovah's Witness

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:22 pm 
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Since the players have a union, they have rights on the job. Without a union, you can be ordered to do anything and fired if you refuse.


Not true, while it may be easier to fire a person without a Union. You cannot be ordered to do anything and fired if you refuse.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:00 pm 
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You cannot dictate Patriotism. That is what Republicans do not understand. Nor can a person be instructed, under pain of termination how to demonstrate such Patriotism.

No player, regardless of the personal political philosophy of the owner of the team. The Commissioner of N.F.L., Roger Goddell is has no authority to issue his edict about Player's kneeling.

The 1943 Ruling still stands, so it time for the N.F.L. Leadership to shut the fuck up and accept that their players are not slaves.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:13 pm 
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Since the players have a union, they have rights on the job. Without a union, you can be ordered to do anything and fired if you refuse.

The NFL player's union is going to be key if the owners try to make them "pay respect to the flag" since they will have to agree to any additions/changes concerning players' conduct in their collective bargaining agreement.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:09 am 
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Not true, while it may be easier to fire a person without a Union. You cannot be ordered to do anything and fired if you refuse.

You don't know what you are talking about. Without a Union, you are under the legal concept of Employment At Will. You need to educate yourself before opening your mouth and showing your ignorance. You can be fired for any, or no, reason. The only exception is some forms of discrimination.

With a Union, your contract usually includes the concept of Just Cause, where the employer must have Just Cause to fire an employee, and the must prove the just cause of the firing.

Think if it like Trump firing Comey. Trump can't get in any trouble for firing Comey, and Comey has no recourse. Now, Trump may be - probably is - guilty of obstruction of justice, because he fired Comey to try to cover up his crimes. But his firing itself was legal. He didn't even need an excuse.

Without a Union, an owner could order all his players to give a Nazi Salute, and fire anyone that refused. Perfectly legal. Don't say that's too outlandish, I could see Bill Belichick doing it! :rw)


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:30 pm 
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:arrow: What ever happened to "....indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." ? Those words in the Pledge of Allegiance seem to be forgotten in all of this.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:30 pm 
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:arrow: What ever happened to "....indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." ? Those words in the Pledge of Allegiance seem to be forgotten in all of this.


Which is one of the reasons why I stopped saying the Pledge in grade school. Even at 8-Years Old I could see how treatment of African-Americans in the South of the 1960's proved what a lie the Pledge was and is.''

They Player's of the N.F.L. are under no obligation obey whatever Gooddell says. Part of our American Democracy is the Right To Protest Peacefully, the Right To Assemble For The Redress of Grievence and the Right To Freedom of Speech. The Constitution trumps (pun intended) whatever that Orange Asshat in the Oval Office says.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:51 pm 
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No, as best I can tell, the owners have given up their rights to establish such standards that go against the principals of "free speech" as described by the First Amendment.


Unless the owners can prove that they did not take money from the federal government to help promote "patriotic" causes, such as establishing some sort of standard decorum during the playing of the national anthem, then they will lose.


By taking money from the federal government for the sort of purposes mentioned above, the NFL has made itself a representative of the federal government, and as such all NFL football games and venues are now public sites, to which First Amendment rights apply in full.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:10 pm 
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No, as best I can tell, the owners have given up their rights to establish such standards that go against the principals of "free speech" as described by the First Amendment.


Unless the owners can prove that they did not take money from the federal government to help promote "patriotic" causes, such as establishing some sort of standard decorum during the playing of the national anthem, then they will lose.


By taking money from the federal government for the sort of purposes mentioned above, the NFL has made itself a representative of the federal government, and as such all NFL football games and venues are now public sites, to which First Amendment rights apply in full.


That is an interesting argument. I am not sure the argument that accepting money from the Federal Government makes someone a representative of the government. Does taking money from Nike to promote their brand make a player or an organization a representative of Nike? I think that is a stretch from a legal perspective but then I am no lawyer. I think there is a distinction between representing someone and advertising or promoting something or someone. Interesting point though and I haven't heard that perspective applied to this situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:33 pm 
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Since the NFL protests have begun I have always been for the kneeling because I think it is a classy way to get across the message. On the other hand I have always contended that because the players are at work their employer could legally prevent them from kneeling. The same way my employer could tell me to take a political sign off of my truck.

Then today I was listening to Joe Madison who informed his audience of a 1943 SCOTUS ruling that said no U.S. citizen could be compelled to stand for or recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Which of course any person with half a brain could see would also include the National Anthem.

The opinion was written by Associate Justice Robert Jackson. The "Black Eagle" suggested to his listeners anyone who that was should look him up. Which I did, Justice Jackson was the Chief Prosecutor at the Nuremburg Trials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_H._Jackson

So on one hand the NFL owners are within their rights to prevent their employees from protesting while at work. They have no right to force their employees to stand for the National Anthem. As it is decided law since 1943.

Even at the height of WWII our SCOTUS ruled it to be against a person rights to be forced to do so.

Glen....As we all know, you and I disagree on more things than we agree on.... maybe not in the entirety of life.... but on issues posted on this forum. That being said, I agree with you 100% on this. ColinK kind of mixed-up his message at the beginning by just lollygagging around sitting on the bench. Not the best messaging for the important message he was trying to get across. Taking a knee....way better. Gets the point across without being disrespectful. Those that find it disrespectful and have tried to shift the narrative to hating the military are full of shit and by and large never served in the military.... not saying none of them have...... just most of them.

cheers,
Kempster CPO USN (retired)

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:50 pm 
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No, as best I can tell, the owners have given up their rights to establish such standards that go against the principals of "free speech" as described by the First Amendment.

Within certain limits an employer can require certain types of behavior from their employee while in the workplace with emphasis on "workplace." The wearing of a uniform, think McDonald's, how employees talk to customers, etc... As I said on another thread on the kneeing by NFL players, the players union is going to have to agree on this issue before the NFL makes it mandatory.


Quote:
Unless the owners can prove that they did not take money from the federal government to help promote "patriotic" causes, such as establishing some sort of standard decorum during the playing of the national anthem, then they will lose.

This is a black eye for the military in that they have to pay to get respect.


Quote:
By taking money from the federal government for the sort of purposes mentioned above, the NFL has made itself a representative of the federal government, and as such all NFL football games and venues are now public sites, to which First Amendment rights apply in full.

I disagree that the NFL has made itself a representative of the federal government. They are no different from a company providing a service such as tarring a roof on a military base or delivering jet fuel. To be a representative of the federal government they must occupy a position within the federal government and merely providing goods or services doesn't qualify them as a government representative.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:06 pm 
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Within certain limits an employer can require certain types of behavior from their employee while in the workplace with emphasis on "workplace." The wearing of a uniform, think McDonald's, how employees talk to customers, etc... As I said on another thread on the kneeing by NFL players, the players union is going to have to agree on this issue before the NFL makes it mandatory.



This is a black eye for the military in that they have to pay to get respect.



I disagree that the NFL has made itself a representative of the federal government. They are no different from a company providing a service such as tarring a roof on a military base or delivering jet fuel. To be a representative of the federal government they must occupy a position within the federal government and merely providing goods or services doesn't qualify them as a government representative.



I don't see how an employer can require an employee to stand for the anthem when the SCOTUS has ruled it unconstitutional to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:11 pm 
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I disagree that the NFL has made itself a representative of the federal government. They are no different from a company providing a service such as tarring a roof on a military base or delivering jet fuel. To be a representative of the federal government they must occupy a position within the federal government and merely providing goods or services doesn't qualify them as a government representative.


Seems to me there is more than enough precedent to back my position. For example, many institutions that receive funding from the federal government, including private universities, are required to adhere to federal standards with regard to civil rights.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:24 pm 
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I don't see how an employer can require an employee to stand for the anthem when the SCOTUS has ruled it unconstitutional to do so.

They can't "require" you to. But they don't have to employ you if you don't. Perfectly legal for them to fire you if they wish.

The ONLY way you have ANY rights on the job is with a union.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:37 pm 
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They can't "require" you to. But they don't have to employ you if you don't. Perfectly legal for them to fire you if they wish.

The ONLY way you have ANY rights on the job is with a union.

IOW Glen just because the government can't and doesn't require you to stand and therefore it is not illegal for you NOT to stand, it is also not illegal for the employer to fire you because you refuse to comply with his wishes that you stand while you are on the clock, in his uniform, and in front of his customer. It isn't against the law to offend your employers sense of what is or is not respectful or patriotic but that doesn't mean that the employer can't fire you for doing so. There are sometimes consequences outside the law when you exercise your right to free speech. The exception as GoU has pointed out is where there is some contractual obligation which grants the employee certain rights.

These employers will argue that these demonstrations are alienating a portion of their customer base and are detrimental the their business and their brand.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:54 pm 
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IOW Glen just because the government can't and doesn't require you to stand and therefore it is not illegal for you NOT to stand, it is also not illegal for the employer to fire you because you refuse to comply with his wishes that you stand while you are on the clock, in his uniform, and in front of his customer. It isn't against the law to offend your employers sense of what is or is not respectful or patriotic but that doesn't mean that the employer can't fire you for doing so. There are sometimes consequences outside the law when you exercise your right to free speech. The exception as GoU has pointed out is where there is some contractual obligation which grants the employee certain rights.

These employers will argue that these demonstrations are alienating a portion of their customer base and are detrimental the their business and their brand.

Under a Union contract, an employer can make the argument under the Just Cause provision that your actions interfere in their business, and thus you would be subject to disciplinary action.

However, the employee would have the right to grieve the employer's decision. So, if, as the President wishes, an owner says "You're fired" for refusing to stand, the Union would object. The team would likely lose that grievance, because under the provision of Progressive Discipline, the owner should instead give a warning that if they do it again, they would be subject to firing. If the player continued, then the owner might fire the player.

But it would still be up to an impartial arbitrator to decide whether such a firing would be justified.

The problem with this instance is you have the government - in the person of the President - trying to force an employer to quash the speech of an employee.

Note that Colin Kaepernick was not fired for not kneeling. He was released by the team for performance reasons.

Now, one could argue the point, but not per the NFL/NFLPA contract. The teams have wide latitude on the basis of performance.

It is sad that black athletes that speak out on social issues are putting their livelihood at risk.


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 Post subject: Re: Where I was wrong
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Seems to me there is more than enough precedent to back my position. For example, many institutions that receive funding from the federal government, including private universities, are required to adhere to federal standards with regard to civil rights.

They are contractors, not representatives of the federal government, and they are required by their contract, to which they agreed, to adhere to standards. To be a representative of the government they must have some type of official government standing/appointment to carry out the duties of a particular governmental agency/office. Accepting government funding and the rules and regulations that goes with the funding doesn’t create an official government position but rather a contractual obligation to provide goods or services to either the government or to the people and area the government identifies are in need of the goods or services.

Using the examples I gave earlier, a roofing company contracted to tar the roof a finance office on a military base doesn’t authorize them to issue military checks or pay. Likewise, a company contracted to deliver jet fuel to a base doesn’t authorize them to determine where the jets fly or how they are maintained. In both cases, neither company has the authority or duties of a government representative but they do have a contractual relationship with the government to provide the contracted goods or services.

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