Teamster Strike at UPS???

[gounion]

UPS promised a final offer today, July 5. Talks broke down at 4 AM this morning: https://www.rawstory.com/ups-contract/

The Teamsters said Wednesday that high-stakes talks with UPS over a new contract for more than 340,000 workers have fallen apart after the company presented an offer that union negotiators deemed badly inadequate.

Following a marathon negotiating session that ran into the early hours of Wednesday morning, "UPS walked away from the bargaining table after presenting an unacceptable offer to the Teamsters that did not address members' needs," the Teamsters announced on social media.

"The UPS Teamsters National Negotiating Committee unanimously rejected the package," the union said. "UPS refused to give the Teamsters a last, best, and final offer, telling the union the company had nothing more to give."

Okay, this doesn't make sense. The term "Last, Best and Final Offer" is a specific term in labor bargaining. A company does NOT give this offer until there's NOTHING more on the table. That's the company saying "take it or strike". You can get a "Last Offer" or a "Last and Best Offer" but it's not the actually the last offer until you say "Last, Best and Final Offer".

So, in labor parlance, until you give that offer, you still have more to give.

Being on the outside, I have nothing but a feeling from experience. Labor Bargaining is Kabuki Theater, and I think that's what this is. I think you'll see them getting back together today. Or, maybe UPS has told them to go pound sand.

For those who haven't been paying attention, this would be the biggest strike in the US in, like, forever.

[ZoWie]

Yes, that is a big one. It would stop a lot of deliveries. Other shippers claim to have excess capacity left over from the covid era, but we will see about that.

I'm not familiar with the issues, beyond the weird one of UPS seeming reluctant to air condition their delivery trucks in the era of catastrophic climate change.

Presumably if the Teamsters walked, it would shut down the whole vast UPS apparatus of dedicated cargo planes, warehouses, distribution points, logistics facilities, etc. This is a gigantic infrastructure and its closure would get noticed in a hurry.

[JoeMemphis]

Yes, that is a big one. It would stop a lot of deliveries. Other shippers claim to have excess capacity left over from the covid era, but we will see about that.

I'm not familiar with the issues, beyond the weird one of UPS seeming reluctant to air condition their delivery trucks in the era of catastrophic climate change.

Presumably if the Teamsters walked, it would shut down the whole vast UPS apparatus of dedicated cargo planes, warehouses, distribution points, logistics facilities, etc. This is a gigantic infrastructure and its closure would get noticed in a hurry.

It might seem a little counter intuitive, but a UPS strike creates a ton of stress with their competitors. It’s an opportunity to take some market share but in the short run it will be hell picking up the slack. Makes their operations guys nervous.

[gounion]

It might seem a little counter intuitive, but a UPS strike creates a ton of stress with their competitors. It’s an opportunity to take some market share but in the short run it will be hell picking up the slack. Makes their operations guys nervous.

It'd be a good way for UPS to lose half their business in the long AND short run mostly to non-union FedEx. Nothing happening right now, according to this Reuters story an hour ago: https://www.reuters.com/business/teamst ... 023-07-05/

Both sides have dueling statements. Teamsters: https://teamster.org/2023/07/after-mara ... -collapse/
UPS: https://about.ups.com/us/en/newsroom/pr ... table.html

Again, trying to read the tea leaves in Kabuki Theater that is labor negotiations. First, the contract does not expire and the strike can't happen until July 31 - that's three weeks away. Back 20 years ago, You could get an offer on 2 days before expiration, and vote it on the last day before. But these days members demand a chance to look over the contract instead of having it thrust upon them and having to immediate vote. So, most contract proposals are given by the company AT LEAST a week early.

So, if they were given a LBFO (Last Best and Final Offer, which, as I said before is always the LAST offer a company will make without a work stoppage. It is their bottom line) next week that the union negotiators are happy with, it could stop. But the company gave their word to give them the LBFO today, so the price of poker would go up for the company to miss the deadline they gave their word on. They'd have to have someone so good it would mollify the negotiators that they would recommend. The price of recommendation would certainly go up.

That would be stupid of UPS.

Now, looking at their statements, there are specific things in the Teamsters statement that I find interesting:

Around 4 a.m., UPS walked away from the bargaining table after presenting an unacceptable offer to the Teamsters that did not address members’ needs. The UPS Teamsters National Negotiating Committee unanimously rejected the package.

Following marathon negotiations, UPS refused to give the Teamsters a last, best, and final offer, telling the union the company had nothing more to give.

Number one, that the company walked away, not the Teamsters. Number two, that they refused to give the LBFO.

The company's statement says in part:

The Teamsters have stopped negotiating despite historic proposals that build on our industry-leading pay. We have nearly a month left to negotiate. We have not walked away, and the union has a responsibility to remain at the table.

They deny walking away, saying it was the Teamsters that left. They also DO NOT DENY giving the LBFO, which, if they did, they would deny. So they didn't. They also said there is almost a month left. So, are they saying they had no intention of keeping their word to deliver the LBFO today?

That's stupid. As I said, in that case, the price of a contract has went up for UPS. It'll take a lot more for a recommendation from the Committee, and I'm quite sure the membership WILL NOT overturn a recommendation to strike. It's the Teamsters, after all.

And the danger for UPS is going to increase every day before the 31st, as shippers won't be caught flat-footed. FedEx will happily take over UPS accounts starting now, so that customers won't be unable to ship if there's a strike. And they'll take over starting now. Joe has said before that business doesn't like uncertainty, and they'll simply jump to the non-union carrier and never go back.

It's time for UPS to end this NOW with an acceptable offer that will be recommended. It's the only way to preserve the business and the profits.

[Glennfs]

It'd be a good way for UPS to lose half their business in the long AND short run mostly to non-union FedEx. Nothing happening right now, according to this Reuters story an hour ago: https://www.reuters.com/business/teamst ... 023-07-05/

Both sides have dueling statements. Teamsters: https://teamster.org/2023/07/after-mara ... -collapse/
UPS: https://about.ups.com/us/en/newsroom/pr ... table.html

Again, trying to read the tea leaves in Kabuki Theater that is labor negotiations. First, the contract does not expire and the strike can't happen until July 31 - that's three weeks away. Back 20 years ago, You could get an offer on 2 days before expiration, and vote it on the last day before. But these days members demand a chance to look over the contract instead of having it thrust upon them and having to immediate vote. So, most contract proposals are given by the company AT LEAST a week early.

So, if they were given a LBFO (Last Best and Final Offer, which, as I said before is always the LAST offer a company will make without a work stoppage. It is their bottom line) next week that the union negotiators are happy with, it could stop. But the company gave their word to give them the LBFO today, so the price of poker would go up for the company to miss the deadline they gave their word on. They'd have to have someone so good it would mollify the negotiators that they would recommend. The price of recommendation would certainly go up.

That would be stupid of UPS.

Now, looking at their statements, there are specific things in the Teamsters statement that I find interesting:



Number one, that the company walked away, not the Teamsters. Number two, that they refused to give the LBFO.

The company's statement says in part:



They deny walking away, saying it was the Teamsters that left. They also DO NOT DENY giving the LBFO, which, if they did, they would deny. So they didn't. They also said there is almost a month left. So, are they saying they had no intention of keeping their word to deliver the LBFO today?

That's stupid. As I said, in that case, the price of a contract has went up for UPS. It'll take a lot more for a recommendation from the Committee, and I'm quite sure the membership WILL NOT overturn a recommendation to strike. It's the Teamsters, after all.

And the danger for UPS is going to increase every day before the 31st, as shippers won't be caught flat-footed. FedEx will happily take over UPS accounts starting now, so that customers won't be unable to ship if there's a strike. And they'll take over starting now. Joe has said before that business doesn't like uncertainty, and they'll simply jump to the non-union carrier and never go back.

It's time for UPS to end this NOW with an acceptable offer that will be recommended. It's the only way to preserve the business and the profits.

Both sides are claiming the other walked away from the table I believe both are lying.

As for losing half their business to FedEx. I am not a big union guy. But, if you have a package that absolutely has to be there on time, something like a contract. You pay the extra and use UPS.
If you have a package and it is ok if it arrives a day or two late, you use FedEx.

UPS service is far better than FedEx the post office or anywhere else. However their prices do reflect that service

[JoeMemphis]

Both sides are claiming the other walked away from the table I believe both are lying.

As for losing half their business to FedEx. I am not a big union guy. But, if you have a package that absolutely has to be there on time, something like a contract. You pay the extra and use UPS.
If you have a package and it is ok if it arrives a day or two late, you use FedEx.

UPS service is far better than FedEx the post office or anywhere else. However their prices do reflect that service

I’m a little biased but I think Fedex is the better carrier. That said, many shippers will go right back to UPS post strike. They did so last time. It’s foolish to have a single vendor for shipping if that is critical to your business. That doesn’t mean that Fedex and other carriers won’t increase market share. Most of the trade business I know used to rely totally on UPS. That has changed. Many companies now use multiple carriers. They don’t want to rely solely on one carrier because of things such as this. That being said, if UPS does strike, there will be service disruptions as the other carriers won’t be able to totally absorb the volume right away.

[gounion]

Both sides are claiming the other walked away from the table I believe both are lying.

As for losing half their business to FedEx. I am not a big union guy. But, if you have a package that absolutely has to be there on time, something like a contract. You pay the extra and use UPS.
If you have a package and it is ok if it arrives a day or two late, you use FedEx.

UPS service is far better than FedEx the post office or anywhere else. However their prices do reflect that service

I SAID this is Kabuki Theater. It's grandstanding. You have to read between the lines, and even then, without inside info, you might be wrong. It does bother me that nothing else happened yesterday.

[gounion]

The Kabuki Theater continues. After zero negotiations since the breakdown, negotiations are to restart this week. That's a really short window, since Jan 31st is when the contract expires. Main issue now is much better pay for part-timers.

[Number6]

The Kabuki Theater continues. After zero negotiations since the breakdown, negotiations are to restart this week. That's a really short window, since Jan 31st is when the contract expires. Main issue now is much better pay for part-timers.

UPS will probably ask the union to continue working under the old contract while they're negotiating "in earnest" with the union. The question is will the company really be negotiating "in earnest" or will they drag it out hoping the union will continue to work under the old contract.

[gounion]

UPS will probably ask the union to continue working under the old contract while they're negotiating "in earnest" with the union. The question is will the company really be negotiating "in earnest" or will they drag it out hoping the union will continue to work under the old contract.

Sorry, Six, that won’t happen. July 31 is a drop dead date. There will either be a contract in place or there will be a strike. For one thing, the workers would go after any leadership that would ask that of them. The problem here is, since the company broke their promise of a Last, Best and Final Offer earlier this month, the price of labor peace has went up. It’s going to cost more not to have a strike, as the workers are insulted and pissed.

At this point, only UPS knows if there will be a strike. They know what the leadership demands for them to recommend a contract, and they are the only one that knows if they’ll get there or not.

One thing about the Teamsters, they aren’t afraid to drop the hammer and walk out. UPS knows that.

[Number6]

Sorry, Six, that won’t happen. July 31 is a drop dead date. There will either be a contract in place or there will be a strike. For one thing, the workers would go after any leadership that would ask that of them. The problem here is, since the company broke their promise of a Last, Best and Final Offer earlier this month, the price of labor peace has went up. It’s going to cost more not to have a strike, as the workers are insulted and pissed.

At this point, only UPS knows if there will be a strike. They know what the leadership demands for them to recommend a contract, and they are the only one that knows if they’ll get there or not.

One thing about the Teamsters, they aren’t afraid to drop the hammer and walk out. UPS knows that.

There have been times when a union gives a drop deadline for a strike but end up not striking while negotiations continue. For me, a strike is a strike when the workers actually leave their jobs.

[gounion]

There have been times when a union gives a drop deadline for a strike but end up not striking while negotiations continue. For me, a strike is a strike when the workers actually leave their jobs.

Those are extremely rare instances, when there are issues that it's in the interests of both sides to keep negotiating. In my experience in such situations, and especially knowing the Teamsters, that is NOT what will happen here. The Teamsters are READY to strike. Add to that the company's refusal to give them the LFBO early in the month as they had promised to do, and this will NOT be such a time, Six.

At this point, UPS will have to either cave at the last moment, or there WILL be a strike.

Without inside info, that's my take on it. Chances of negotiations past the deadline are non-existent, IMHO.

[Glennfs]

Those are extremely rare instances, when there are issues that it's in the interests of both sides to keep negotiating. In my experience in such situations, and especially knowing the Teamsters, that is NOT what will happen here. The Teamsters are READY to strike. Add to that the company's refusal to give them the LFBO early in the month as they had promised to do, and this will NOT be such a time, Six.

At this point, UPS will have to either cave at the last moment, or there WILL be a strike.

Without inside info, that's my take on it. Chances of negotiations past the deadline are non-existent, IMHO.

The union must be asking for to much which is why they are afraid of government intervention.

Sad that when the company has the upper hand they screw the workers and when the union has the upper hand they screw the company.
As opposed to coming uo with an agreement which is fair for each

[gounion]

The union must be asking for to much which is why they are afraid of government intervention.

Sad that when the company has the upper hand they screw the workers and when the union has the upper hand they screw the company.
As opposed to coming uo with an agreement which is fair for each

That’s how you do negotiations. You don’t ask for intervention. UPS would love it, so they could shove their demands onto the workers.

I’ll tell you what corporations NEVER want - binding arbitration, where a neutral arbitrator hears both sides, and decides upon the fair contract.

The President could only order them back to work under the company’s offer. They can’t force the company to take the union’s demands. That isn’t fair to both sides.

[Number6]

The union must be asking for to much which is why they are afraid of government intervention.

The government gets involved when a strike would unduly impact the nation. In the case of this strike, it doesn't because there are a number of package delivery companies like FedEx, Pace Couriers, DHL, etc.

Sad that when the company has the upper hand they screw the workers and when the union has the upper hand they screw the company.
As opposed to coming uo with an agreement which is fair for each

Show us how your "both sides do it" argument has happened.

[Glennfs]

That’s how you do negotiations. You don’t ask for intervention. UPS would love it, so they could shove their demands onto the workers.

I’ll tell you what corporations NEVER want - binding arbitration, where a neutral arbitrator hears both sides, and decides upon the fair contract.

The President could only order them back to work under the company’s offer. They can’t force the company to take the union’s demands. That isn’t fair to both sides.

Is there really any such thingcas a neutral arbitrator. I bet all lean one way or the other.

[gounion]

Is there really any such thingcas a neutral arbitrator. I bet all lean one way or the other.

I've seen many. Your bias is showing.

[gounion]

I TOLD you it was Kabuki Theater!

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/25/business ... index.html

Must have been a UPS cave. They certainly blinked. No details yet, but it sounds to me like, since it happened quickly after they returned to the table, that the Teamsters got everything they wanted. They didn't spend any time quibbling. Wow.

And before you anti-union bastards start whining how the Teamsters bullied UPS into a contract, UPS says:

“Together we reached a win-win-win agreement on the issues that are important to Teamsters leadership, our employees and to UPS and our customers,” Carol Tomé, UPS chief executive officer, said in a written statement. “This agreement continues to reward UPS’s full- and part-time employees with industry-leading pay and benefits while retaining the flexibility we need to stay competitive, serve our customers and keep our business strong.”

[Glennfs]

I TOLD you it was Kabuki Theater!

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/25/business ... index.html

Must have been a UPS cave. They certainly blinked. No details yet, but it sounds to me like, since it happened quickly after they returned to the table, that the Teamsters got everything they wanted. They didn't spend any time quibbling. Wow.

And before you anti-union bastards start whining how the Teamsters bullied UPS into a contract, UPS says:

Maybe we should wait until we hear or know the actual details before we pass judgment one way or the other.

[gounion]

Maybe we should wait until we hear or know the actual details before we pass judgment one way or the other.

Why? Both UPS AND the Teamsters say it’s a fantastic contract. How could it be otherwise?

[gounion]

One more thing - you can bet that the Biden Administration, in some way, was in contact with both sides. Likely not Biden personally, but he probably had a good idea where both sides were all along. Again, UPS knew for sure whether there would be a strike or not, since they alone knew whether or not they’d be getting to where the Teamsters wanted them to get to avert the strike.

To me, this means the Teamsters didn’t demand anything that was unreasonable. Hell, air conditioning in the new trucks should have been pretty easy, since Amazon includes air conditioning in all their new trucks already. UNREASONABLE could have been putting AC in ALL trucks right away, as that would have been tough financially and logistically. So that tells me they were pushing hard, but not where it would hurt the company.

It’ll be interesting how the vote turns out, as they’ve had them all ready to strike, strike strike when you’d most want to strike, the hottest part of the summer, now they have to bring them in for a landing. If they’ve gotten what they promised they’d get, it should be fine.

[Number6]

UPS and the union agreed to a new five year agreement.

The Teamsters union said it has secured pay raises for United Parcel Service workers, averting what would have been one of the largest strikes in U.S. history.

"UPS has put $30 billion in new money on the table as a direct result of these negotiations," Teamsters general president Sean O'Brien said in a statement. "This contract sets a new standard in the labor movement and raises the bar for all workers."

Under the tentative five-year agreement, existing full and part-time UPS Teamsters will earn $2.75 more per hour in 2023, and $7.50 more per hour over the length of the contract. Wages for existing part-timers will also be raised to no less than $21 per hour, effective immediately, according to a Teamsters statement.

New part-time hires at UPS will start at $21 per hour and advance to $23 per hour.
https://www.npr.org/2023/07/25/11899566 ... or-workers

It's good the strike was averted and both the company and the union are happy with the deal.

[Libertas]

Good...and FUCK you Fed Ex.

[gounion]

From the Teamsters - contract details: https://teamster.org/2023/07/weve-chang ... -contract/

Highlights of the tentative 2023-2028 UPS Teamsters National Master Agreement include:

• Historic wage increases. Existing full- and part-time UPS Teamsters will get $2.75 more per hour in 2023, and $7.50 more per hour over the length of the contract.
• Existing part-timers will be raised up to no less than $21 per hour immediately, and part-time seniority workers earning more under a market rate adjustment would still receive all new general wage increases.
• General wage increases for part-time workers will be double the amount obtained in the previous UPS Teamsters contract — and existing part-time workers will receive a 48 percent average total wage increase over the next five years.
• Wage increases for full-timers will keep UPS Teamsters the highest paid delivery drivers in the nation, improving their average top rate to $49 per hour.
• Current UPS Teamsters working part-time would receive longevity wage increases of up to $1.50 per hour on top of new hourly raises, compounding their earnings.
• New part-time hires at UPS would start at $21 per hour and advance to $23 per hour.
• All UPS Teamster drivers classified as 22.4s would be reclassified immediately to Regular Package Car Drivers and placed into seniority, ending the unfair two-tier wage system at UPS.
• Safety and health protections, including vehicle air conditioning and cargo ventilation. UPS will equip in-cab A/C in all larger delivery vehicles, sprinter vans, and package cars purchased after Jan. 1, 2024. All cars get two fans and air induction vents in the cargo compartments.
• All UPS Teamsters would receive Martin Luther King Day as a full holiday for the first time.
• No more forced overtime on Teamster drivers’ days off. Drivers would keep one of two workweek schedules and could not be forced into overtime on scheduled off-days.
• UPS Teamster part-timers will have priority to perform all seasonal support work using their own vehicles with a locked-in eight-hour guarantee. For the first time, seasonal work will be contained to five weeks only from November-December.
• The creation of 7,500 new full-time Teamster jobs at UPS and the fulfillment of 22,500 open positions, establishing more opportunities through the life of the agreement for part-timers to transition to full-time work.
• More than 60 total changes and improvements to the National Master Agreement — more than any other time in Teamsters history — and zero concessions from the rank-and-file.

Sounds like a good time to put a application in with UPS! I'll bet a lot of Amazon Drivers will be quitting for union wages with UPS.

Like I said, it is all Kabuki theater, and from the outside you don't know what will end up. I remember leading into the last night of negotiations, having no idea if we would get a deal or a strike. But 95% of the time, we came out with a deal. That's how most negotiations end, with a contract.

[Glennfs]

Why? Both UPS AND the Teamsters say it’s a fantastic contract. How could it be otherwise?

What would you expect them to say? We got screwed? Of course the company is going to put out a feel good statement to help stock prices and to avert any customer concerns.

Of course the union is going to put out a feel good statement to help the deal to get ratified.

In a few days maybe sooner the details will leak out then we all can make a judgment based on the facts, as opposed to conjecture.