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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Left faces off with Dem establishment in primary fights

An energized left is taking on the Democratic establishment in primaries across the country, deepening the fissures within the party.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=SK216DHP


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:09 pm 
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There are two, and only two reasons why Donald Trump is President.

He is President because this country:

1. Is half full of assholes, which includes 60% of white voters.

2. Is the only country where the candidate who gets the most votes does not always win.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:09 pm 
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J_dogg why did you say Bullshit to what i said?

You had said "Sam, I defy you to find a single even semi-contested House race where the GOP isn't using Pelosi in campaign ads."

I said, "J_dogg, that's immaterial to the question of whether we ought to change our party leadership." And then I made a good sound argument as to why it was immaterial, limiting my argument to what was immaterial about it.

You said "bullshit, ... ." Then you made a somewhat more material argument in the place of that awful throw away immaterial argument you threw at me before. :|




About Ike having misquoted your statement: "No...We can't fire Pelosi regardless of whether she fails us again."

It misquoted as a question "We can't fire Pelosi?". Questions are not the same as statements at all, that was a misquote for Ike to have done that. In doing that Ike introduced a pejorative element.

However I see no problem with trimming out four words out of a long sentence to quote and then address. I do that sometimes.

The leading epilepsy was already there, if Ike had added a trailing epilepsy a space and a period, that would have in my mind passed muster.

Like this: "... We can't fire Pelosi ... ."

That indicates there's missing context both before and after the quoted words, and coupled with that link at the top of the quote box anyone who wants to can easily find that missing context. And in some cases, however not this one, it doesn't suggest that the quoted person wrote an incomplete sentence.

I said bullshit, because I reject the notion that any leadership will be as widely disliked by "leaners" as Pelosi is. That is another way to keep from holding her accountable. It is definitely possible for Democratic leadership to appeal to a broad coalition of voters, while advocating for essentially the same policies. They might be rare. Yet, this is a big f***ing country.

There is a governing strategy too. If House leadership was willing to bring votes on legislation that did jot have the full support of the party, it would break gridlock, and allow rural Democrats to actually deliver on promises important to their own constituencies.

One thing Obama (usually) excelled at was keeping in mind who the average person is, rather than trying to guilt them into being something else. Most people are average, and half are below that (thanks Carlin). I think the Dems get so tied up with discussions of privilege that they forget half of Black people are middle class and 1/3 of white children are raised in poverty. We assume minorities are a product of their environments, even when they engage in high rates if criminal violence. We treat any ratial/cultural/gender/orientation insensitivity as deliberate. People "should know better." I'm certainly guilty of this, and people should, at least, try. Yet rural, non-college educated people are products of their experiences just like everyone else. Their institutional privilege doesn't always keep them from food stamps or 20 hour days. Their educational opportunities may suck too. They may be trapped in communities with no opportunity too.

We have to find ways of speaking to their issues too, while also advocating for the social change and acceptance for the historically disadvantaged. Their issues are our issues. We have not done well in showing that.

I admit it's hard. I cut ties with all the rural friends I had from Marion Wisconsin (population 1250 when I lived there for 2 years of high school. I couldn't take the constant use of fag on their Facebook pages. It was something I just didn't want to expose myself ton and yet, to them, it had nothing to do with homosexuality. When I unfriended them, I was conscious of the fact that I was further isolating them.

So it isn't easy. I'm not saying it is. But it begins with seeing that the issues people from all walks of life are dealing with are mostly the same, and speaking to those.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:04 pm 
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I said bullshit, because I reject the notion that any leadership will be as widely disliked by "leaners" as Pelosi is. That is another way to keep from holding her accountable. It is definitely possible for Democratic leadership to appeal to a broad coalition of voters, while advocating for essentially the same policies. They might be rare. Yet, this is a big f***ing country.

There is a governing strategy too. If House leadership was willing to bring votes on legislation that did jot have the full support of the party, it would break gridlock, and allow rural Democrats to actually deliver on promises important to their own constituencies.

One thing Obama (usually) excelled at was keeping in mind who the average person is, rather than trying to guilt them into being something else. Most people are average, and half are below that (thanks Carlin). I think the Dems get so tied up with discussions of privilege that they forget half of Black people are middle class and 1/3 of white children are raised in poverty. We assume minorities are a product of their environments, even when they engage in high rates if criminal violence. We treat any ratial/cultural/gender/orientation insensitivity as deliberate. People "should know better." I'm certainly guilty of this, and people should, at least, try. Yet rural, non-college educated people are products of their experiences just like everyone else. Their institutional privilege doesn't always keep them from food stamps or 20 hour days. Their educational opportunities may suck too. They may be trapped in communities with no opportunity too.

We have to find ways of speaking to their issues too, while also advocating for the social change and acceptance for the historically disadvantaged. Their issues are our issues. We have not done well in showing that.

I admit it's hard. I cut ties with all the rural friends I had from Marion Wisconsin (population 1250 when I lived there for 2 years of high school. I couldn't take the constant use of fag on their Facebook pages. It was something I just didn't want to expose myself ton and yet, to them, it had nothing to do with homosexuality. When I unfriended them, I was conscious of the fact that I was further isolating them.

So it isn't easy. I'm not saying it is. But it begins with seeing that the issues people from all walks of life are dealing with are mostly the same, and speaking to those.


I agree with you on Pelosi. As long as she is in a leadership position, Republicans are going to brand your party with her. If that is how the party wants to brand itself then so be it. The same holds true of Republicans and Trump. You can bet your ass that everyone running against a Republican will make it a referendum on Trump. That's just the way it is.

I also agree that in order to win elections you have to appeal to the folks in the middle. That's where most of the electorate is. They have bills to pay, kids to raise and educate and jobs they go to day after day hoping some day to retire. They don't care all that much for all the petty partisan politics or culture wars. They just want the government to work for them instead of the other way around. The view hasn't changed for them in a long while.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:19 pm 
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I agree with you on Pelosi. As long as she is in a leadership position, Republicans are going to brand your party with her. If that is how the party wants to brand itself then so be it. The same holds true of Republicans and Trump. You can bet your ass that everyone running against a Republican will make it a referendum on Trump. That's just the way it is.

I also agree that in order to win elections you have to appeal to the folks in the middle. That's where most of the electorate is. They have bills to pay, kids to raise and educate and jobs they go to day after day hoping some day to retire. They don't care all that much for all the petty partisan politics or culture wars. They just want the government to work for them instead of the other way around. The view hasn't changed for them in a long while.

Trump appealed to the racists. Proud of that?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:23 pm 
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Trump appealed to the racists. Proud of that?

I am not proud of Trump. No. Never have been proud of Trump. Didn't support him from the outset. Didn't vote for him in the last election and will not be voting for him should he run in the future. But you are well aware of all that as I have said it to you many times.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:30 pm 
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I am not proud of Trump. No. Never have been proud of Trump. Didn't support him from the outset. Didn't vote for him in the last election and will not be voting for him should he run in the future. But you are well aware of all that as I have said it to you many times.

But you WILL be voting for people that support him 100%, like Marsha Blackburn, who will be the Republican nominee for Senate. She is touting her complete support of Trump as her main reason people should vote for her.

So, when you vote for her, how is that showing anyone that you don't support Trump, least of all yourself?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:04 pm 
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But you WILL be voting for people that support him 100%, like Marsha Blackburn, who will be the Republican nominee for Senate. She is touting her complete support of Trump as her main reason people should vote for her.

So, when you vote for her, how is that showing anyone that you don't support Trump, least of all yourself?


The upcoming election is not a Presidential election. I will be voting for the individuals I believe best represent the interests of State of Tennessee and my congressional district. If I were to vote for a Democrat, does that mean I support Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer? Because I am not sure I want to do that. Does it mean that I support all the policies espoused by the Democratic Party? I am not sure I want to do that either.

So if its all the same to you, I prefer to wait until the campaign and I actually have an opportunity to hear from both candidates before I make up my mind. I know you just automatically pull the lever for whomever has a "D" by their name. I kinds like to hear what the candidates have to say.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:05 pm 
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But you WILL be voting for people that support him 100%, like Marsha Blackburn, who will be the Republican nominee for Senate. She is touting her complete support of Trump as her main reason people should vote for her.

So, when you vote for her, how is that showing anyone that you don't support Trump, least of all yourself?


and you don't need any names or need to know who or what the candidates are, as you will be voting for one party rule once again.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:32 pm 
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and you don't need any names or need to know who or what the candidates are, as you will be voting for one party rule once again.


Lol one party rule .. you guys control the Senate, House, White House, and have a majority on the SCOTUS. Do you consider that to be one party rule? The supposed "NeverTrumps" don't even bother to make that big show of distancing themselves from him anymore.

Worse yet, the R party is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of trump.com, the most corrupt administration in this country's history.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:03 pm 
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I said bullshit, because I reject the notion that any leadership will be as widely disliked by "leaners" as Pelosi is. That is another way to keep from holding her accountable. It is definitely possible for Democratic leadership to appeal to a broad coalition of voters, while advocating for essentially the same policies. They might be rare. Yet, this is a big f***ing country.

There is a governing strategy too. If House leadership was willing to bring votes on legislation that did jot have the full support of the party, it would break gridlock, and allow rural Democrats to actually deliver on promises important to their own constituencies.

One thing Obama (usually) excelled at was keeping in mind who the average person is, rather than trying to guilt them into being something else. Most people are average, and half are below that (thanks Carlin). I think the Dems get so tied up with discussions of privilege that they forget half of Black people are middle class and 1/3 of white children are raised in poverty. We assume minorities are a product of their environments, even when they engage in high rates if criminal violence. We treat any ratial/cultural/gender/orientation insensitivity as deliberate. People "should know better." I'm certainly guilty of this, and people should, at least, try. Yet rural, non-college educated people are products of their experiences just like everyone else. Their institutional privilege doesn't always keep them from food stamps or 20 hour days. Their educational opportunities may suck too. They may be trapped in communities with no opportunity too.

We have to find ways of speaking to their issues too, while also advocating for the social change and acceptance for the historically disadvantaged. Their issues are our issues. We have not done well in showing that.

I admit it's hard. I cut ties with all the rural friends I had from Marion Wisconsin (population 1250 when I lived there for 2 years of high school. I couldn't take the constant use of fag on their Facebook pages. It was something I just didn't want to expose myself ton and yet, to them, it had nothing to do with homosexuality. When I unfriended them, I was conscious of the fact that I was further isolating them.

So it isn't easy. I'm not saying it is. But it begins with seeing that the issues people from all walks of life are dealing with are mostly the same, and speaking to those.


Well that brings out some pretty good points. Such as the parts about forgetting "half of Black people are middle class and 1/3 of white children are raised in poverty," and you cutting your ties with all of your rural friends, and as result "further isolating them."

Around here could be used as case study about how "we treat any racial/cultural/gender/orientation insensitivity as deliberate."


I maintain my rural ties, but it's not always easy. Like today, it snowed, the private road was slick. I got out there this morning with my scoop shovel, a guest was going to need to travel the road later today. At first I was working alone, then some liberals drove by and smiled and waved. They were going down hill so they didn't have to worry about getting stuck. But then along came a conservative, and then another. They stopped, and had shovels in their 4x4 trucks. They helped me clear the snow and dirt the slick ice on the road. We talked as well. They're the only people who talk much along the road.

And then that car load of liberals came home. They were able to drive all the way home instead of park and walk the final stretch afoot. They didn't stop to help us finish the job, but they sure did smile big and wave. They were happy they didn't have to park and walk, which is what happens if me and the conservatives don't get out and shovel the road.

This has happened this way at least fifteen times over last ten years. It doesn't snow like that very often. The same people always stop to help and talk, and the same people always smile and wave as they drive by.

The ones who stop and help are the ones who are coarse and unrefined. They sometimes irritate me by shooting off their guns day and night as well as other loud banging and engine noises around their place, all of which I ignore.

The ones who drive by and wave are the ones who are "racial/cultural/gender/orientation" sensitive. They sometimes irritate me by thinking the road has a speed limit of 10 MPH which they flail at trying to enforce though use of facial and arm gestures along the road, followed by making telephone calls once I arrive home, all of which I ignore.



Then there's the odd ball one who owns the helicopter, a noisy thing, he keeps it up behind my place at the end of the road. I've never see him on the road, just flying overhead. Ten years and I've never spoken a word with him. The neighbors say he's related to Senator Boxer. Apparently the road is named after him, or his father.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Well that brings out some pretty good points. Such as the parts about forgetting "half of Black people are middle class and 1/3 of white children are raised in poverty," and you cutting your ties with all of your rural friends, and as result "further isolating them."

Around here could be used as case study about how "we treat any racial/cultural/gender/orientation insensitivity as deliberate."


I maintain my rural ties, but it's not always easy. Like today, it snowed, the private road was slick. I got out there this morning with my scoop shovel, a guest was going to need to travel the road later today. At first I was working alone, then some liberals drove by and smiled and waved. They were going down hill so they didn't have to worry about getting stuck. But then along came a conservative, and then another. They stopped, and had shovels in their 4x4 trucks. They helped me clear the snow and dirt the slick ice on the road. We talked as well. They're the only people who talk much along the road.

And then that car load of liberals came home. They were able to drive all the way home instead of park and walk the final stretch afoot. They didn't stop to help us finish the job, but they sure did smile big and wave. They were happy they didn't have to park and walk, which is what happens if me and the conservatives don't get out and shovel the road.

This has happened this way at least fifteen times over last ten years. It doesn't snow like that very often. The same people always stop to help and talk, and the same people always smile and wave as they drive by.

The ones who stop and help are the ones who are coarse and unrefined. They sometimes irritate me by shooting off their guns day and night as well as other loud banging and engine noises around their place, all of which I ignore.

The ones who drive by and wave are the ones who are "racial/cultural/gender/orientation" sensitive. They sometimes irritate me by thinking the road has a speed limit of 10 MPH which they flail at trying to enforce though use of facial and arm gestures along the road, followed by making telephone calls once I arrive home, all of which I ignore.



Then there's the odd ball one who owns the helicopter, a noisy thing, he keeps it up behind my place at the end of the road. I've never see him on the road, just flying overhead. Ten years and I've never spoken a word with him. The neighbors say he's related to Senator Boxer. Apparently the road is named after him, or his father.

The conservatives at the end of our allie always plow it too. They are up way earlier than I am. I am the busy hand-waving lawyer on his way to court while they tidey their own square. I or my husband will get to the snow somewhere in the first 24 hours, usually. Sometimes it takes 30 hours. I end up benefitting from the early-rising, conservative folks who I waive at on my way to work. I have no idea what they think of me, since we are don't interact. We did send all the houses a basket of muffins when we moved in...so I guess we paid them a bit for their ambition.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:02 pm 
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and you don't need any names or need to know who or what the candidates are, as you will be voting for one party rule once again.


How many congressional Republicans have not supported every bill that Trump is promoting. Two or three? The only bill where there were enough Republican "no" votes to stop it was the ACA repeal. Trump finally got his spending bill and his tax bill. No republicans are challengung trump on DACA. Theres no compromising on DACA. If the SCOTUS had not refused to hear the case and leave the Obama DACA order in place the dreamers would be on their way back to countries they don't know anything about and where many of them don't even speak the language. Nobody needs to know the names of specific Republicans who are unacceptable. Any Republicans who support Donald Trump are unacceptable. And in the end, every fucking one of them supports Trump.

So you can fold your "one party rule" bullshit six ways and stuff it up your ass, glen.

As far as Justin's 'rural constituencies" are concerned, just how many rural constituencies are predominantly Democratic. How many of them even have local offices where Democratic candidates or the party would be willing to waste the money running for office? Democrats in rural constituencies...my ass.

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Last edited by Ike Bana on Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:06 pm 
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The conservatives at the end of our allie always plow it too. They are up way earlier than I am. I am the busy hand-waving lawyer on his way to court while they tidey their own square. I or my husband will get to the snow somewhere in the first 24 hours, usually. Sometimes it takes 30 hours. I end up benefitting from the early-rising, conservative folks who I waive at on my way to work. I have no idea what they think of me, since we are don't interact. We did send all the houses a basket of muffins when we moved in...so I guess we paid them a bit for their ambition.


That depends on what you put in the muffins. Old conservatives like lots of bran. Old liberals like a more exotic herb muffin. But then again, who doesn't like a good muffin? :)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:53 pm 
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The conservatives at the end of our allie always plow it too. They are up way earlier than I am. I am the busy hand-waving lawyer on his way to court while they tidey their own square. I or my husband will get to the snow somewhere in the first 24 hours, usually. Sometimes it takes 30 hours. I end up benefitting from the early-rising, conservative folks who I waive at on my way to work. I have no idea what they think of me, since we are don't interact. We did send all the houses a basket of muffins when we moved in...so I guess we paid them a bit for their ambition.


To be honest with you, if the conservatives you have there are like the ones I have here, they don't want you to stop and help. They would if you were in tune, but if you're not in tune they would just as soon you smiled and waved and passed on by.

By "in tune" I'm not talking about politics, especially if you would try to talk about politics, oh suffering sacrilege no, don't talk about politics.

I'm talking about the ability to hop on a forklift, a tractor, and operate it. The ability to back a trailer in and out of tight spots without scratching the paint. Having the sense to sense when it's OK to hop into the drivers seat of their 4x4 grab a hold of their keys hanging from the ignition switch and fire it up then move it down the road a bit, all without asking, so the team work can continue.

I'm in tune, they like it when I stop. :)



They would like it when Bradman stops, unless he would try to talk about politics.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:00 pm 
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To be honest with you, if the conservatives you have there are like the ones I have here, they don't want you to stop and help. They would if you were in tune, but if you're not in tune they would just as soon you smiled and waved and passed on by.

By "in tune" I'm not talking about politics, especially if you would try to talk about politics, oh suffering sacrilege no, don't talk about politics.

I'm talking about the ability to hop on a forklift, a tractor, and operate it. The ability to back a trailer in and out of tight spots without scratching the paint. Having the sense to sense when it's OK to hop into the drivers seat of their 4x4 grab a hold of their keys hanging from the ignition switch and fire it up then move it down the road a bit, all without asking, so the team work can continue.

I'm in tune, they like it when I stop. :)



They would like it when Bradman stops, unless he would try to talk about politics.

If you can't parallel park a trailer then I don't want you as a friend.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:08 pm 
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If you can't parallel park a trailer then I don't want you as a friend.


Depends on the trailer. Long trailers are okay. Short trailers not so much.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:35 pm 
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If you can't parallel park a trailer then I don't want you as a friend.


Wanna see a pissed off conservative? Show them a black person, or a Mexican or a Muslim who can hop on a forklift, a tractor, and operate it. Get seriously pissed off...a black person, a Mexican, or a Muslim who can parallel park a trailer. All the know is that its some darkie going after their job, trying to steal their country.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:15 pm 
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How many congressional Republicans have not supported every bill that Trump is promoting. Two or three? The only bill where there were enough Republican "no" votes to stop it was the ACA repeal. Trump finally got his spending bill and his tax bill. No republicans are challengung trump on DACA. Theres no compromising on DACA. If the SCOTUS had not refused to hear the case and leave the Obama DACA order in place the dreamers would be on their way back to countries they don't know anything about and where many of them don't even speak the language. Nobody needs to know the names of specific Republicans who are unacceptable. Any Republicans who support Donald Trump are unacceptable. And in the end, every fucking one of them supports Trump.

So you can fold your "one party rule" bullshit six ways and stuff it up your ass, glen.

As far as Justin's 'rural constituencies" are concerned, just how many rural constituencies are predominantly Democratic. How many of them even have local offices that democrats where Democratic candidates or the party would be willing to waste the money running for office? Democrats in rural constituencies...my ass.

Hey! I’m one! Of course Portage County Ohio is as red as can be but still...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:57 pm 
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Hey! I’m one! Of course Portage County Ohio is as red as can be but still...


Y'know...there is something that Trump has done that I'm somewhat happy to see. We have a full slate of democrats runnimg in the primaries on 3/20 for every local and county wide office in the November general election. This will be the first time since we bought our home out here in DuPage County, Illinois in 1974 where there will be a Democratic candidate for every office on the ballot. We have a state full of fucked up Republican politicians who refuse to utter a discouraging word about Donald Trump. And we now have Democratic candidates for every office chomping a the bit to beat their brains out with it in November. The one I want to see go down more than any other...that despicable little puke, Peter Roskam.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:07 pm 
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So if we're up Pelosi's ass for losing the election, why are we not up Dick Durbin's ass? Or Luis Gutiérrez' ass?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:00 am 
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Saw this morning that DCCC is attacking a lesbian candidate in Texas, because her sexuality makes her "un-electable." If that is true, they can fuck off and won't get another dime from me.

I'll renounce the party. Weaponizing sexual orientation against LGBT people is for the other guy's. It is certainly not for any party I am a member of.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:07 am 
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So if we're up Pelosi's ass for losing the election, why are we not up Dick Durbin's ass? Or Luis Gutiérrez' ass?


Everybody needs their scapegoats. The party is ignoring rural white moderates, the party is ignoring progressives, the party is too focused on identity politics, it's Pelosi's fault, it's DWS's fault, it's Obama's fault, it's the DNC/DCCC/DSCC ... it's the DLC! (Oh fuck. They stopped existing in 2011.)

If I dare suggest that most of what's going on is a regular oscillatory movement in American politics that can't really be blamed on one convenient scapegoat ... well, dare I suggest that? I think we are definitely now starting to see the reverse oscillation unfold this year. Including even at the key state and local race level.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:11 am 
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Saw this morning that DCCC is attacking a lesbian candidate in Texas, because her sexuality makes her "un-electable." If that is true, they can fuck off and won't get another dime from me.


That does sound horrible, which leads me to my next question.

Link/source?

I'm trying to find your story. So far I can't.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:31 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:01 pm
Posts: 16848

The upcoming election is not a Presidential election. I will be voting for the individuals I believe best represent the interests of State of Tennessee and my congressional district. If I were to vote for a Democrat, does that mean I support Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer?


Typically Joe avoids addressing the issue raised by GoU. If you were to vote for a Democrat...now there's a fucking sick joke.

There are 289 Republicans in the Congress who support Donald Trump. If you support them...and we know you do...you're supporting Donald Trump. If you support anybody in any public office who supports Donald Trump...you're supporting Donald Trump. But you won't withdraw your support from any Republican politician simply because that vote whoring shitsack supports Donald Trump. So it's easy for you to spew your typical insistance that you have never supported Donald Trump. It's just as easy for you to never have stated that you oppose Donald Trump and want him gone.

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