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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:16 am 
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Your point about there not being an inherent distrust of government in Asia ... well, it kind of goes back to Confucianism.

In essence, you owe the emperor loyalty ... but, only if the emperor obeys the Mandate of Heaven and is just toward his subjects.

Confucius' relations between people and society were organized around reciprocal duties.

That includes ruler/emperor and ruled/subject.

Largely because of the Confucian legacy, many Asian societies are far more communitarian than this one. Also, I think many, like Japan, are only partially rationalized, and thus maintain some traditional aspects.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:31 am 
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Now, could you dumb that down for the Fox Nooze fans so's they could understand it?


Rich people will buy politicians, buy up competitor companies and destroy them with debt, demand deregulation and plead poor when it comes to raises for their employees?

Nah, probably not enough.


Enough so I can understand it. The treatises on the pitfalls of capitalism, with all the complicated references to all the economic philosophies and all the complete historical references are just too much for my raging ADD to manage (my shrink friends kept telling me that by the time I was 50 I'd be rid of most of it...alas it's 20 years down the road and just as annoying as ever).

So anyway, thank-you for the nice one sentence summary of how modern capitalism (via the Koch's) works. I had the first part down fine, but the last part was really helpful in tying the whole think in a nice little bow. Confirmation abounds.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:35 am 
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I guess I ramble on too much...


Please, all of ya ramble on. It's refreshing.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:43 am 
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I happen to think everything should be tightly expressed in 140 characters or GTFO.

OK, now we have 280. Double the profundity. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:17 am 
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And on a related matter:

U.S. Steel dumps more toxic chromium near Lake Michigan

Quote:
The spill wasn't serious enough to merit reporting "and did not pose any danger to water supply or human health," a company spokeswoman said. (WTF????)

In April, fishermen spotted a bigger spill in Burns Waterway, a man-made slip that runs along the west edge of the steel mill and drains into Lake Michigan. They called local television stations, drawing emergency responders from the U.S. EPA's Chicago office who confirmed the plume contained hexavalent chromium, a highly toxic version of the metal made infamous by the movie "Erin Brockovich."


We own a home 15 miles east of the US Steel plant in Portage Indiana. And yesterday we find out (from the Chicago Tribune article) that not only was there a discharge of hexavalent chromium into Lake Michigan in October, but with the discharge in April, a total of a little less than 1000 pounds of Chromium-6 went into the the Burns Waterway, a man-made slip that runs along the west edge of the steel mill and drains directly into Lake Michigan. So we called the Department of Water in Michigan City to ask about the possibility of the material reaching our water supply...nobody there knew anything about it. Then we called IDEM (Indiana Department of Environmental Management), resonsible in Indiana for this sort of thing and guess what...they didn't know anything about it either. Since fucking October, because the local water companies in NW Indiana, the National Park Service which manages the Indiand Dunes National Lakeshore all along the South Shore of Lake Michigan in NW Indiana, and none of the state or federal regulatory agencies responsible for monitoring pollution of the southern tip of Lake Michigan were notified. Because, as a US Steel spokeswoman glibly advised us all...it didn't, in her fucking opinion, pose any danger to the water supply or human health.

Here's one of the more disturbing aspects of this. We have two neighbors in our town who are deeply involved in environmental issues. One is an environmental engineer with over 35 years of experience in the assessment and control of such things, the other a long time employee of the Indiana Department of Environmental Management with an educational specialty in water quality. And what do our two environmental specialist neighbors say to us in our email correspondence yesterday morning when we suggest that we send something out on the town email tree letting residence know what's going on with this? "Well let's not alarm people with this, it's a small release and shouldn't have any impact in the water quality in the area." So I wrote back..."Tell ya what, I think the people have a right to know what is happening with our water supply and that they are perfectly capable of deciding how alarmed they want to be." I haven't heard back from these two as of this morning.

Anyway...our calls to the Water Department and IDEM got them both on track...IDEM was out with their gear checking the quality of our water supply by lunch time with a specific screening for Chromium-6, and we were relieved to get the report that there was zero reading on it in our supply.

So I get to thinking about Trump's dismantling of the EPA and the activities of his fucking personal rent-boy Scott Pruitt. And then I get to thinking about libertarian assholes like the Koch brothers who believe that the government should be completely out of the protection of the people from the spilling of poisons into our drinking water supply by American business...that a truly free market and the legal system will provide all the protection that we need. And Copenhagen looks even more attractive to me than it did the day before yesterday.

Un-fucking believable. A rusty pipe on the grounds of US Steel that nobody remembers even exists anymore...full of Chromium-6 hanging right over a tributary into one of the most precious bodies of water on earth and dumping poison into it that nobody would know about if it weren't for a couple of fishermen.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:15 pm 
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Call for Erin Brockovich! Funny you should bring up hexavalent chromium. CA just got enjoined from enforcing the limits imposed after her well-movie'd legal suit.

Further proof that capitalism, in its current state, is amoral. There is only money. It tends toward chaos, as it subverts everything else ever evolved to maintain order in a species distrustful of same. You don't need an advanced degree in a social science to understand that. Just read/ watch/ listen to the daily news. Or even read twitter, now with 280 characters for bots, trolls, and true believers to concoct their own version of the facts.

Economics... well I'm always kind of behind the times there, but I know they put a lot of faith in the predictive power of mathematical models. After all, it works in physics. Now, ShineOn is the go-to guy on all that sort of thing, but my understanding is that systems far out of equilibrium are far harder, if impossible, to predict. The "free market" is idealized because it supposedly seeks equilibrium. The problem is that its actors are unpredictable and non-rational people, not masses in motion, and you won't get it by simply trusting the process. That will just put it ever closer to chaos. It needs control, and a lot of it.

It seems to me as if the economists who are starting to understand this are the ones currently winning Nobels.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:22 pm 
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I don't think he will win a Nobel (but you never know), but my brother works exactly on nonlinear dynamics in economics.

From what little I can understand of his papers, he's pretty much shown that anybody who claims you can predict what the stock market will do over the long term, is essentially, a liar. It's too chaotic a system.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:33 pm 
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I've read some very knowledgeable people (sorry, can't cite names, I know, I get an F). It seems to be moving toward a consensus that the stock market indices are strange attractors. There's a huge amount of positive and inverse feedback, and in general there are way too many variables from too many different places to ever make reliable predictions farther out than a few weeks.

If you'd said 5 years ago that the Dow would just keep growing and reach 23,400, they'd think you were off your trolley.

It's even worse than the weather. That's predictable by comparison. You really are rolling dice in the market, even if you're an algorithm.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:35 pm 
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So, basically......The only predictable thing in Capitalism is that we will have a boom and then a bust... another boom and another bust... another boom another bust....boom....bust.....boom ...bust.......? Ya'd think some kind of pattern would emerge after so many of them.

Ya just as well go to a casino as play the stock market. It's gambling plain and simple. An gambling's bad, mkay.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:52 pm 
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So, basically......The only predictable thing in Capitalism is that we will have a boom and then a bust... another boom and another bust... another boom another bust....boom....bust.....boom ...bust.......? Ya'd think some kind of pattern would emerge after so many of them.

Ya just as well go to a casino as play the stock market. It's gambling plain and simple. An gambling's bad, mkay.

Depends upon who is doing the gambling, what the stakes/rewards/losses are. Behavioral economics whose father is Richard Thaler, is all about the why. Today’s economics and indeed much of the economic minds of the past are unconcerned with why. If something happens that is in violation of the models it generally gets dismissed. Remember the comment about the crash being 25 deviations and thus shouldn’t have happened during the lifetime of the universe or some such? Well, it did happen. It happened because humans make choices based upon biases, poor or limited information and a host of other things. They do not maximize utility each and every time.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:22 pm 
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Call for Erin Brockovich! Funny you should bring up hexavalent chromium. CA just got enjoined from enforcing the limits imposed after her well-movie'd legal suit.

Further proof that capitalism, in its current state, is amoral. There is only money. It tends toward chaos, as it subverts everything else ever evolved to maintain order in a species distrustful of same. You don't need an advanced degree in a social science to understand that. Just read/ watch/ listen to the daily news. Or even read twitter, now with 280 characters for bots, trolls, and true believers to concoct their own version of the facts.

Economics... well I'm always kind of behind the times there, but I know they put a lot of faith in the predictive power of mathematical models. After all, it works in physics. Now, ShineOn is the go-to guy on all that sort of thing, but my understanding is that systems far out of equilibrium are far harder, if impossible, to predict. The "free market" is idealized because it supposedly seeks equilibrium. The problem is that its actors are unpredictable and non-rational people, not masses in motion, and you won't get it by simply trusting the process. That will just put it ever closer to chaos. It needs control, and a lot of it.

It seems to me as if the economists who are starting to understand this are the ones currently winning Nobels.

Equilibrium is put forth because, imo, it is pretty. An elegant, simple solution to a complex problem. Thus the almighty supply and demand curves that intersect at equilibrium. The old prices go up as demand goes up and prices go down as demand goes down. The other saw is that increasing the money supply causes inflation. Neither statement is true. Demand or lack thereof does not magically change prices on price tags or in computer terminals. Human beings decide to change prices by making a bet or taking a gamble that demand will remain high even as said human raises prices. Unfortunately high demand can lead to a competitive human making the decision to increase production of that same item while maintaining price. High demand, high supply thus kills the guy who raised his prices. Or does it? What level of service does the first provide? Is there a real or perceived difference between the products? Is one store easy to get to? Does one company only sell online? How does advertising impact the transaction? Does the buyer like the salesperson at the higher priced store?

As for inflation the idea is there is more money to “go after”. Yet again a human must make the decision to raise prices.

Economics suffers from physics envy.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:33 pm 
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Economics suffers from physics envy.


Might partially explain why I'm a physicist, instead of an economist.


The difference being, that my childhood friend who went into economics is a multi-millionaire and I'm roughly one step away from holding a tin can at a corner.


But hey, at least we can see the hand of G_d in our work; knowing perfection is infinitely more meaningful than one-upping everyone else around you.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:12 pm 
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So the other day on the view they were talking about people saying mean things to them and the threats they receive because they are public figures. so in attempting to stand up for themselves they said the people probly live in their moms basement, and and that they were just at work doing their jobs and that's what their criticisers should do too.

so I get where they are coming from and who its intended for but.... I guess its the nature of the insult that got me thinking. as they really don't know the wealth, employment status, or level of independence they are dealing with but the insult in these times of mass inequality is that they are probly have nots and the panel of wealthy women public figures are immune from that. sort of a dog whistle classism. our self esteem is invested in the inequality at the same time as our collective well being is opposed to it.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:27 pm 
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So the other day on the view they were talking about people saying mean things to them and the threats they receive because they are public figures. so in attempting to stand up for themselves they said the people probly live in their moms basement, and and that they were just at work doing their jobs and that's what their criticisers should do too.

so I get where they are coming from and who its intended for but.... I guess its the nature of the insult that got me thinking. as they really don't know the wealth, employment status, or level of independence they are dealing with but the insult in these times of mass inequality is that they are probly have nots and the panel of wealthy women public figures are immune from that. sort of a dog whistle classism. our self esteem is invested in the inequality at the same time as our collective well being is opposed to it.

Race, tribe including religion divide depending upon personalities, value structures and so on. Class divides as well. However, imo, the resolution of race/tribe divisions would not eliminate class divisions. Class is drilled into people in capitalist systems and then where western capital structures and development are imposed on non-western social systems class arises. It may already be there in such places but the western system, the most aggressive of which is the Washington Consensus, ramps up such tendencies.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:19 pm 
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Race, tribe including religion divide depending upon personalities, value structures and so on. Class divides as well. However, imo, the resolution of race/tribe divisions would not eliminate class divisions. Class is drilled into people in capitalist systems and then where western capital structures and development are imposed on non-western social systems class arises. It may already be there in such places but the western system, the most aggressive of which is the Washington Consensus, ramps up such tendencies.


well how do you improve such a system if your self esteem depends on the inequality that results from the corruption that drives it? being a have not is the nature of the insult but being a have not is also inevitable to a great many from the coruption and bias of the system itself.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:58 am 
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well how do you improve such a system if your self esteem depends on the inequality that results from the corruption that drives it? being a have not is the nature of the insult but being a have not is also inevitable to a great many from the coruption and bias of the system itself.

The crux lies in the belief that government and political economy exist to serve the most people, to serve society. The current rw libertarian/conservative theology does not believe in the concept of communitarian. Until there is something like 9/11 or a war where so-called shared sacrifice is touted.

In the political economy itself we haven the end result here and elsewhere of progressive tax systems, more even distribution of wealth and income. It is not that there should be fewer millionair3s or billionaires arbitrarily but rather that the differences between the quintiles shrink. Social instability can be and has been driven by economics as we note from the Arab Spring. The lack of democratic institutions as opposed to capitalist institutions caused the failure of the Arab Spring. Countries that ignore inequitable distribution, not equal distribution, suffer the consequences. Those who say that an even playing field is all that counts and that end results don’t matter, that it is the fault of the individual are fooling themselves.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:32 pm 
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I guess I ramble on too much...

Not at all bird. If we ramble, what do we do. The history lessons are of course important.

We can write history, but can we write the future. We better hope so. The future is not written in the history books.

The future is actually what people decide it will be.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:21 pm 
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Economic updates are also important. The thing that happens today is that when something important occurs in the economy, it is woven into a narrative in tidbits without any analysis.

Here is an example of an update which clearly explains what has just occurred, if you happened not to grasp its significance.

www.youtube.com Video from : www.youtube.com


Diagrams are helpful to give clarity to the words. There is no need to dumb things down or to browbeat the audience into submission. Let me note that I don't suggest that that is what bird does, but that language does proliferate much economic debates, which is tasteless.

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