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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:54 pm 
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... and part of it, of course, looks like Trump's stance on immigration (and not just his commentary) is the problem.

.... so here's the thing I've been wondering. Is CoS John Kelly Trump's angel whispering on his shoulder, or his devil? This guy may not be another Bannon or Miller, but ... he may be a bad influence in another way.

John Kelly, Deacon of Deportation
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/17/opin ... n-ice.html

People correctly direct their ire about Donald Trump’s hostile, racist, anti-immigrant policies at Trump himself because, after all, this starts at the top.

But there is someone else in the administration, behind the scenes and in the shadows, who deserves more scrutiny and more condemnation for this administration’s approach to immigration: Chief of Staff John Kelly.

Kelly is often referred to as the man who was brought to the West Wing to impose must-needed discipline on a chaotic White House. He was the access granter and mood regulator for Trump. He was the adult to Trump’s child. He was the former general who had honorably served his country, now brought in to save it.

In the most recent kerfuffle over Trump’s torpedoing of a bipartisan DACA deal, in which he made a racist attack against immigrants from African countries and Haiti, it became increasingly clear that Kelly was instrumental in influencing Trump to flip from a stance of openness and compromise back to a celestial alignment with immigration hard-liners.

As The Associated Press reported this week, after Trump requested a briefing on a bipartisan immigration deal sponsored by Senators Lindsey Graham, a Republican, and Dick Durbin, a Democrat:

“Chief of staff John Kelly phoned Trump from Capitol Hill to advise him against accepting the proposal, and the president summoned conservative Republican negotiators to help build a united front against the plan, which would have provided some border security funding as well as protection from deportation for immigrants brought to the country as children and now here illegally.”

Graham was not happy about the ambush or the reversal and pointed out who he believed to be the source of the problem, telling reporters, “I think somebody on his staff gave him really bad advice between 10 o’clock to 12 o’clock on Thursday.” Graham went on to say that Kelly is “a fine man, but he’s part of the staff.”

Actually, Kelly is following the Kelly-Trump immigration doctrine.

This was just the latest incident in Kelly’s revealing track record on immigration since Trump has been in office.

Kelly is no angel. He’s more like the devil’s handmaiden. As The Times’s Glenn Thrush reported in October, Kelly seems to be “moving from the role of quiet backstage manager to open partisan.”

His hostility toward immigration has been evident from the beginning of his time in the administration.

When Kelly was brought on as chief of staff in July, The Nation warned, “John Kelly’s promotion is a disaster for immigrants,” pointing out that in just six months as secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, he turned it into “a deportation machine.”

The Nation went on:

“Indeed, in the last six months, Kelly has turned the DHS into one of the most productive arms of the Trump administration. Kelly managed to translate much of Trump’s brazen anti-immigrant campaign rhetoric into actual policy. And if the numbers are any indication, Kelly has certainly flourished. Arrests since Trump took office in February increased by 40 percent over the prior year. But perhaps more important than the numbers is Kelly’s impact on immigrant communities, where apprehension and fear now reign.”

[snip]

The Times also reported that in November, Kelly “unsuccessfully tried to pressure the Homeland Security Department to end a program that allows hundreds of thousands of people from countries affected by natural disasters or violence to live in the United States without fear of being deported, according to people familiar with the discussions.”

Many of those countries have populations that are either black or brown. Those were the countries Trump vulgarly disparaged. So why are Trump and Kelly so dogged in their opposition to these particular programs?

I, along with many others, have pointed out Trump’s obvious racism, but Kelly’s relationship to race is also troubling.


In October, Kelly said that “Robert E. Lee was an honorable man” and that “the lack of an ability to compromise led to the Civil War,” displaying a staggering ignorance about the conflict and a racial insensitivity that marginalized the centrality of slavery to the war.

[snip][end]

He's not a moderating influence on Trump. In fact, in this area, he's the devil.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:34 pm 
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I don't think there will be a shutdown. I think the Republicans will pass another short term budget bill and kick the can another two months or so into the future.


The pressure the DACA issue was placing on Congress was largely relieved by a pair of Federal district court rulings issued by William Alsup.

Read his Jan 9 ruling:

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000160 ... fa4f5d0001

Then read his Jan 12 ruling:

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000160 ... fb543a0000


That kicks the ball back to Trump. Despite Trumps's big noise about bringing it before the Supreme Court, bypassing the 9th Circuit Court, his administration quietly began accepting DACA renewal applications last week. That leaves him clinging to a slender vine that his legal teams argument will stand in court, or he can amending his executive order.

I think he will try to do some of both. :|



So there's no real reason Democrats have to regard this short term budget bill as a do or die situation to force a shutdown of the government over.

So several Democratic Senators from red states will vote to pass it.

So we'll hear the sound of a can bouncing down the road, again.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:40 am 
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... and part of it, of course, looks like Trump's stance on immigration (and not just his commentary) is the problem.


As we covered in the other thread...this all goes away if Trump follows through on his public commitment to sign any bill brought to him by the bipartisan group on immigration.

There have been suggestions that Trump sees himself as a big hero to his fucked up base if he shuts down the government. I don't believe his cognitive processing is sophisticated enough for him to come up with any other reason for acting like such an asshole.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:05 am 
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Let's identify the real problem: not the Democrats, not the Hispanic Caucus, no, it is a GOP that doesn't give a shit.

Republicans have punted on immigration since the start. Why should Democrats trust them now?
GOP leaders are asking Democrats to trust them on DACA. They haven’t shown much urgency.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... crats-daca

[snip]

The “No. 2s” — a team of leadership deputies that includes McCarthy, Durbin, Minority Whip Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-MD), and Majority Whip Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX) — have yet to come forward with an agreement, or present the outlines of a proposal to their conferences. The only bipartisan agreement publicly put forward was shot down by the White House and GOP leaders.

The clock is ticking. Congress has until midnight on Friday to avert a government shutdown, and Republicans keep pushing Democrats to leave immigration out of this round of government funding talks. Yet they’ve given no reason for Democrats to believe them past their word.

“If I were a Democrat,” one GOP lawmaker said on Wednesday, “depending on promises of what will happen tomorrow is not a wise move.”

Cornyn tweeted Wednesday morning that the immigration working group was going “back to the drawing board.”

By the afternoon, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell seemed to have laid it all out on the table: He still doesn’t know what the president wants on DACA.

“I’m looking for something that President Trump supports, and he’s not yet indicated what measure he’s willing to sign,” he said. “As soon as we figure out what he is for, then I would be convinced that we are not just spinning our wheels to this issue on the floor, but actually dealing with a bill that has a chance to become law and therefore solve the problem.” (*)

Last week, a bipartisan group of senators led by Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Jeff Flake (R-AZ), and Durbin presented Trump with a proposal that would give DREAMers a chance at legal status and a path to citizenship, while restricting them from sponsoring their parents, eliminating the diversity visa lottery, and funding some border projects.

The proposal was panned by conservative immigration hawks. Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AR) called it a “joke” and a “mass amnesty bill.” Rep. Mark Meadows (R-NC), who chairs the Freedom Caucus, a group of the House’s archconservatives, called it a “Durbin deal.”

Trump — who has been engaging hardliners like Meadows, Cotton, and Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA), who has been pushing a conservative alternative — nixed the bipartisan Graham-Durbin plan and has since been stoking partisan rancor. The result has been a divided Congress, stuck between lawmakers actively participating in bipartisan negotiations, conservative hardliners who have shown no interest in compromise, and a group of leadership members who haven’t moved far past square one.

[snip]

Last week, after a bipartisan meeting in the White House, Republicans returned to the Capitol saying they had finally gotten some clarification: Trump had “narrowed the scope” of DACA negotiations, GOP senators said. Then the president rejected a proposal that seemed to check every box on his framework (**), and McConnell is turning back to Trump for guidance.

[snip][end]

(*) It was Mitch who said this, NOT the Hispanic Caucus.
(**) Only one word for this kind of negotiating, whether in politics or real estate: douchebaggery.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:19 am 
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Let's identify the real problem: not the Democrats, not the Hispanic Caucus, no, it is a GOP that doesn't give a shit.

Republicans have punted on immigration since the start. Why should Democrats trust them now?
GOP leaders are asking Democrats to trust them on DACA. They haven’t shown much urgency.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... crats-daca

[snip]

The “No. 2s” — a team of leadership deputies that includes McCarthy, Durbin, Minority Whip Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-MD), and Majority Whip Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX) — have yet to come forward with an agreement, or present the outlines of a proposal to their conferences. The only bipartisan agreement publicly put forward was shot down by the White House and GOP leaders.

The clock is ticking. Congress has until midnight on Friday to avert a government shutdown, and Republicans keep pushing Democrats to leave immigration out of this round of government funding talks. Yet they’ve given no reason for Democrats to believe them past their word.

“If I were a Democrat,” one GOP lawmaker said on Wednesday, “depending on promises of what will happen tomorrow is not a wise move.”

Cornyn tweeted Wednesday morning that the immigration working group was going “back to the drawing board.”

By the afternoon, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell seemed to have laid it all out on the table: He still doesn’t know what the president wants on DACA.

“I’m looking for something that President Trump supports, and he’s not yet indicated what measure he’s willing to sign,” he said. “As soon as we figure out what he is for, then I would be convinced that we are not just spinning our wheels to this issue on the floor, but actually dealing with a bill that has a chance to become law and therefore solve the problem.” (*)

Last week, a bipartisan group of senators led by Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Jeff Flake (R-AZ), and Durbin presented Trump with a proposal that would give DREAMers a chance at legal status and a path to citizenship, while restricting them from sponsoring their parents, eliminating the diversity visa lottery, and funding some border projects.

The proposal was panned by conservative immigration hawks. Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AR) called it a “joke” and a “mass amnesty bill.” Rep. Mark Meadows (R-NC), who chairs the Freedom Caucus, a group of the House’s archconservatives, called it a “Durbin deal.”

Trump — who has been engaging hardliners like Meadows, Cotton, and Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA), who has been pushing a conservative alternative — nixed the bipartisan Graham-Durbin plan and has since been stoking partisan rancor. The result has been a divided Congress, stuck between lawmakers actively participating in bipartisan negotiations, conservative hardliners who have shown no interest in compromise, and a group of leadership members who haven’t moved far past square one.

[snip]

Last week, after a bipartisan meeting in the White House, Republicans returned to the Capitol saying they had finally gotten some clarification: Trump had “narrowed the scope” of DACA negotiations, GOP senators said. Then the president rejected a proposal that seemed to check every box on his framework (**), and McConnell is turning back to Trump for guidance.

[snip][end]

(*) It was Mitch who said this, NOT the Hispanic Caucus.
(**) Only one word for this kind of negotiating, whether in politics or real estate: douchebaggery.

Goddamn right it is the Republicans. As for Mitch, why are you waiting for what Trump wants? That is just a Republican stall because Donnie doesn't have a clue.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:51 am 
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Now as I recall, after 45 cheated his way into the Oval Office, Republicans were really big on saying how they, "Did not need Democrats". In fact a great many Repubicans said they did not need Democrats.

The factional infighting within the Republican Party is amazing. Hardliners would rather see the country brought to its knees rather than making real actual deals. I also remember one Republican saying that his of reaching compromise with Democrats is the he gets everything he wants and Democrats get nothing.

This is a Republican Shutdown pure and simple.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Yep, I've already assigned the blame, it's on the backs of House Republicans.

I posted this in the other thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22013&p=390614#p390614


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:04 pm 
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Stalling is all the GOP knows how to do. They did it for so long with Obama that they've forgotten the rest of the playbook.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:15 pm 
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Stalling is all the GOP knows how to do. They did it for so long with Obama that they've forgotten the rest of the playbook.


After Eight Years of saying "NO!" to President Obama, Republicans have long forgotten what it takes to govern our Country.

The Republicans have long called themselves "The Party of Personal Responsibility", and everytime they fail they try to blame somone else for that failure.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:08 pm 
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We must stop a government shutdown.

Bernie and Cory Booker commented on this in periscope video

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:31 pm 
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Whose fault? Factions? Parties? Houses of Congress? Members? Caucuses?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:11 pm 
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A vote is set for 10 PM. I would prefer they not shut the government down.

This bill only lasts a month. Push for the dreamers again in a month.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:13 pm 
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See, now kids, this is why I say sometimes the Murikan people aren't always totally stupid.

From a recent ABC/WaPo survey poll on "who's to blame if there's a shutdown":
Forty-eight percent in the national survey say they’d blame Trump and the GOP, vs. 28 percent who’d blame the Democrats in Congress. An additional 18 percent would blame both equally.

You can look at the partisan breakdown of this poll in the table below. Yeah, 66% of Republicans blame the Democrats in Congress. Quel surprise. :roll:

Americans more likely to blame Trump, Republicans if government shuts down: Poll
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/american ... d=52465107

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:27 pm 
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I have heard several LW talk show hosts as well as their callers tout the shutdown because they believe the GOP will be blamed for it. So much for all that outrage from the left during those shutdowns that were caused by the GOP.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:37 pm 
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Like Sam, I don't want a shutdown.

Only because, BTW, it's not that I don't care about the Dreamers, but a gov't shutdown will end up hurting other people. Maybe not if it's incredibly short. But otherwise. (And no, I'm not talking about sky is falling stuff. The military will continue to operate. But there are meaningful, smaller impacts on people who literally do need government services, at least over time.)

Hurting people to save people doesn't fit my ethical worldview.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:48 pm 
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during a shutdown our beloved and brittle congress still gets paid.
no worries for them.

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They are racists hate mongers I piss down the throats of these Nazis Im too old to worry whether they like it Fuck them.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:52 pm 
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Like Sam, I don't want a shutdown.

Only because, BTW, it's not that I don't care about the Dreamers, but a gov't shutdown will end up hurting other people. Maybe not if it's incredibly short. But otherwise. (And no, I'm not talking about sky is falling stuff. The military will continue to operate. But there are meaningful, smaller impacts on people who literally do need government services, at least over time.)

Hurting people to save people doesn't fit my ethical worldview.


I find it so sad that our congress especially the Senate has refused to do their Constitutional duty and pass a budget. I felt that way when Reid was in charge of the Senate and feel the same way now. The only reason they didn't pass a budget then is the same reason they won't pass one now. Because they are afraid by doing so it will cost them their seats. None of them are worthy to hold the office, because they don't have the courage to pass a budget.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:17 pm 
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so much of the impetus for the Democrats stems from their feelings that the Republicans
want only funding for the military along with a hard line immigration policy reform.It what
the Trump base wants and would energize this base going into the 2018 mid-terms


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:02 am 
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HAPPY SHUTDOWN PEOPLE!

Image

We've got ourselves a shutdown!

P.S. I believe I heard the WH hasn't yet even bothered to hire the person who's in charge of managing a shutdown of the executive branch. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:17 am 
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So we're in a shutdown. What does that mean? The good news - being ironic, of course - is since a few others have happened recently, the impacts are known.

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/20/politics/ ... index.html

Lots of what is considered 'non-essential' federal employees are now furloughed. Will they get back pay? Stay tuned.

Yes, the military will continue to operate. But many military folks could potentially be going without pay.

For those wondering - Mueller's Special Counsel investigation continues to operate.

National zoos, parks, monuments. All closed. Want a federal gun permit? Now you gotta wait. Same for a passport.

TSA, Postal Service, Soc Sec continue to operate - but the latter will be on much reduced staff.

Need something from a federal agency? If it's considered non-essential and that's most - it's closed. (This being a weekend they could be anyway; but if the shutdown still hasn't ended on Monday, it will still be true.)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:26 am 
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OK. So, BTW, before the spin doctoring starts.

Schumer went to meet Trump yesterday for 11th hour negotiating. I'll be frank - he offered stuff I wouldn't have, like wall funding.

Trump refused the offer. AGAIN. EVEN though it DID include some funding for his "wall".

SCHUMER: I put 'the wall' on the table in my meeting with Trump, but he backed out of the deal
http://www.businessinsider.com/governme ... eal-2018-1

The federal government entered a partial shutdown at midnight.

Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said President Donald Trump agreed to a deal on immigration, healthcare, and spending levels during a White House meeting Friday but went back on the deal later in the day.

According to Schumer, Democrats offered to give Trump funding for his long-promised wall along the Mexican border in a deal including a solution for the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program.

Schumer said Trump rejected the deal.

[snip][end]

Seriously - how do you negotiate with people who won't take yes for an answer?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:35 am 
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OK. So, BTW, before the spin doctoring starts.

Schumer went to meet Trump yesterday for 11th hour negotiating. I'll be frank - he offered stuff I wouldn't have, like wall funding.

Trump refused the offer. AGAIN. EVEN though it DID include some funding for his "wall".

SCHUMER: I put 'the wall' on the table in my meeting with Trump, but he backed out of the deal
http://www.businessinsider.com/governme ... eal-2018-1

The federal government entered a partial shutdown at midnight.

Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said President Donald Trump agreed to a deal on immigration, healthcare, and spending levels during a White House meeting Friday but went back on the deal later in the day.

According to Schumer, Democrats offered to give Trump funding for his long-promised wall along the Mexican border in a deal including a solution for the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program.

Schumer said Trump rejected the deal.

[snip][end]

Seriously - how do you negotiate with people who won't take yes for an answer?
The key word in your question is “negotiate”. Donnie’s ego is involved. Appearances are hyper-important to Donnie. It must appear that he is in the superior position and that Schumer is a supplicant. And of course Donnie’s mental health being questionable also plays a role. He really isn’t interested in the politics or even the deal itself. He is only interested in himself. There are no rules except to play to his ego.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:59 am 
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:party:

Donald J. Trump@realDonaldTrump
4 hours ago

"This is the One Year Anniversary of my Presidency and the Democrats wanted to give me a nice present. #DemocratShutdown"


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:04 pm 
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But he's not gonna like the next present when the GOP loses all of their majorities come the midterms. :rofl:


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:07 pm 
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I understand he has the sads because this has ruined his "you love me, you really love me" party at Mar-a-Lago this weekend for cult followers, errr sycophants, errr fans.

Hold on ... where is it ... oh yeah, found it. Here you go, Don.

Image

I'm playing this for you.

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