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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Donald let the republicans know that what they walked in with wasn't acceptable and he would never sign it. Why TF else would Graham turn around and tell Trump that a solution was now on him?

No. He didn't. No Democrat says that. Kelly is described as "not thrilled" and other non-specific descriptors.

Never did he say the White House would not sign it. That came afterwards.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:03 pm 
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Thanks for staying on topic. Pivot to ad hominem much?


Mean old Ike and his ad hominems. Awww...did I huwrt you'we widdle feewings? There now...its OK. See...now we can be friends again, because if I thought you weren't my friend, I just don't think I could bear it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:04 pm 
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YOU ARE NOT EXPLAINING WHY THE HISPANIC CAUCUS DID WHAT IT DID.


Got it. Well, I am not Hispanic, not in Congress, and definitely not eligible to be in it. I also don't know anybody in it, and my real life psychic abilities are limited.

Look, you keep asking me to read their minds, so allow me to give you something I can do: some insight into how the meeting with Kelly went.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/hispan ... ed-defiant

But the reported slur hung over the meeting like a cloud, and the Latino members were additionally frustrated that Kelly gave them no clear indication of what the White House is willing to support on an immigration deal, and did not himself know the details of the bipartisan plans put forward in the House and the Senate. Other members present said while no s-bombs were dropped, Kelly used other terms they found offensive to refer to certain immigrants and immigration mechanisms.

[snip]

In a sign of the new low bar set for policy talks in Washington, several members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus insisted to TPM that their meeting with Kelly never became heated or devolved into profanity. But neither did it give them a clear path forward on eleventh-hour negotiations around the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program.

“The problem is not the ability to have a cordial conversation, the problem is having a substantive conversation where we learn what the administration wants in return for saving the DREAMers,” Sen. Bob Menendez (D-NJ) complained in Spanish as he exited the meaning. “I didn’t get a sense that the administration has a clear bottom line.”

Menendez added that, while unclear, the White House’s demands seemed to be “way beyond” what is realistic.

“What they want in return [for DACA] is a continuously moving target, and it continuously expands,” he said, in English. “Interior enforcement, more border patrol, a wall, asylum reform—these are the type of things we talked about for a comprehensive immigration package that covered broader 11 million undocumented people. The administration continues to seem to want everything Democrats were willing to give in the process of considering comprehensive reform just for these 700,000 young people [under DACA]. But holding them hostage to that type of view is simply not acceptable.”

In the meeting, members said, they pushed Kelly to narrow the scope of a deal, putting aside the President’s previous demands for terminating the diversity lottery visa program and for dramatically cutting back on family reunification programs, and focusing instead just on DACA paired with some form of border security. Kelly did not agree to this framework, the lawmakers said, though he “listened respectfully.”

Several lawmakers independently confirmed to TPM following the meeting that Kelly came unprepared to discuss either of two bipartisan immigration proposals recently put forward, the one in the Senate crafted by Sens. Lindsay Graham (R-SC) and Dick Durbin (D-IL) or the one in the House written by Reps. Will Hurd (R-TX) and Pete Aguilar (D-CA).

“I was surprised he didn’t even know what the Hurd-Aguilar bill was,” Chu said. “He knew about the Goodlatte bill,” she added, referring to a Republican-only proposal that, among other hardline provisions opposed by Democrats, strips federal funding from sanctuary cities.

Rep. Raul Grijalva (D-AZ) told reporters he saw Kelly’s lack of knowledge about the bipartisan bills as “not a good indication.”

“I’m not optimistic,” he said in Spanish. “I didn’t feel that that the General is an effective voice or leader in the White House in order to move this issue.”

Multiple representatives who attended the meeting added that while Kelly was not aware of the details of the bipartisan proposals, he dismissed them as not truly bipartisan.

“He looks at Senators Graham and Durbin as those who regularly work on bipartisan bill, and said, ‘No, I want to bring other people in,'” lamented Gutierrez. “But all of us know that’s how you get things done around here. You find people with common goals, values and ideals who are Republicans and Democrats, and then they cobble something together.”

Kelly’s insistence that far-right immigration hardliners be included in negotiations, Gutierrez said, is “like saying, ‘I want to reform baseball,’ but you insist on including people who say, ‘We should eliminate baseball altogether. I hate baseball.’ You can’t reform it like that.” (*)

[snip]

Speaking to reporters in the ornate hallway outside the meeting room, Chu added that she raised with Kelly that “the term ‘chain migration’ is offensive to us” when referring to the process of citizens and permanent residents sponsoring their relatives to come the United States. “In fact, when the law was passed in 1965, it was called family-based immigration,” she said.

[snip][end]

(*) Yes, Rep. Gutierrez. EXACTLY.

OK. So allow me to take a stab at your question.

You have a negotiation. One side has no fucking clue not only about the issues, but what Congress is already doing about it. They showed up completely unprepared, thus not really serious about finding a solution. They keep shooting down what you are offering, but when asked what they want, it is some hazy misty moving target on the dark side of the moon they are unable to explain.

Questions:
a) who really didn't want a deal? (seems like the other guys)
b) frustration leads to revelation. "They don't know their ass from their elbow". Yeah, I too would say it to a hot mic.

My answer.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:06 pm 
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No. He didn't. No Democrat says that. Kelly is described as "not thrilled" and other non-specific descriptors.

Never did he say the White House would not sign it. That came afterwards.


Graham absolutely said it was now on Trump to come up with a solution. He didn't say it was on the democrats. He would have said that if it was the democrats who nixed the compromise. Its fucking ridiculous (and a bald faced lie) to blame this on anybody but Trump.

And minutes ago the lying ass motherfucker said if there is a shutdown its all on the Democrars.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:33 pm 
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So the White House went from "no clear specifics" until the caucus held its press conference (where they apparently were reacting out of emotion from the prior slurs), to "build the wall."

I think it is fairly clear that Donald Trump had not given Kelly clear instructions as to what he could or could not accept, probably because Donald Trump was prepared to sign any compromise. However, now we were back to square one. So whatever they were hoping to accomplish, unless it was torpedoing any hope of a deal, it didn't work. But it was apparent to me the moment I read the headline that this was a terrible strategy.

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Last edited by J_dogg82 on Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:34 pm 
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Graham absolutely said it was now on Trump to come up with a solution. He didn't say it was on the democrats. He would have said that if it was the democrats who nixed the compromise. Its fucking ridiculous (and a bald faced lie) to blame this on anybody but Trump.

And minutes ago the lying ass motherfucker said if there is a shutdown its all on the Democrars.

So? Pontius Pilot washed his own hands.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Early this morning Trump tweets:

"We need the Wall for the safety and security of our country. We need the Wall to help stop the massive inflow of drugs from Mexico, now rated the number one most dangerous country in the world. If there is no Wall, there is no Deal!"

An hour later he tweets:

"CHIP should be part of a long term solution, not a 30 Day, or short term, extension!"

Once the his administration got up and to work they have been walking that CHIP tweet back, they say he'll sign a bill with a CHIP extension in it, he just wants to see a long term fix.

They haven't been walking back that, No Wall, No Deal!

He really was fuming about his wall last night. Before the No Wall, No Deal tweet he made two more which go together around two AM:

"The Wall is the Wall, it has never changed or evolved from the first day I conceived of it. Parts will be, of necessity, see through and it was never intended to be built in areas where there is natural protection such as mountains, wastelands or tough rivers or water.....

....The Wall will be paid for, directly or indirectly, or through longer term reimbursement, by Mexico, which has a ridiculous $71 billion dollar trade surplus with the U.S. The $20 billion dollar Wall is “peanuts” compared to what Mexico makes from the U.S. NAFTA is a bad joke!"


:|


:) Good news though, today he's going to go to Pennsylvania to help the Democrat Conor Lamb win the 18th congressional district special election next March:

"Will be going to Pennsylvania today in order to give my total support to RICK SACCONE, running for Congress in a Special Election (March 13). Rick is a great guy. We need more Republicans to continue our already successful agenda!"



Conor Lamb supports Unions, seems a little too focused on Heroin, is saying what he needs to say about natural gas if he wants to win in that district. Is wise enough to not mention coal, or fracking. He's looking for a way to help kids with too much student loan debt with suggestions which are tailored to not offend the Republicans in his district he needs to vote for him.

He's a blue dog, I think he stands a good chance to win. >>> https://conorlamb.com/


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:52 pm 
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BTW, Pontius Pilate took his own life after being ordered to do so by the Emperor Caligula in 39 CE.

He had already been replaced as Procurator of Judaea by the Romans for excessive cruelty used in suppressing a Samaritan uprising in 36 CE.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:55 pm 
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Literally everything I said would happen did.

Quote:
The Chaos President vs. His Iron-Fisted Chief of Staff

The one thing sure to make President Trump angry, as anyone who has ever worked closely with him knows, is any suggestion that his staff is managing him.

Yet early Wednesday evening, after learning from a White House aide that his chief of staff, John F. Kelly, had described his views about his signature campaign pledge to build a wall on the Mexico border as “not informed,” and his thinking as “evolving,” the president was initially calm.

It did not last. By Wednesday night, Mr. Trump had become convinced by a string of allies and friends he had talked to on the phone that Mr. Kelly had undermined him, according to people familiar with the conversations. And by Thursday morning, after digesting accounts of Mr. Kelly’s comments on cable news, the president was riled up.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/18/u ... r&referer=

This seemed so obvious. I'm having trouble convincing myself that the Democrats weren't trying to scuttle the deal.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:33 am 
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Literally everything I said would happen did.


This seemed so obvious. I'm having trouble convincing myself that the Democrats weren't trying to scuttle the deal.


Maybe they were. It wasn't much of a deal for them.

It was kind of like someone serving a pie cut in four pieces, placing three of the pieces on his plate. Then further subdividing the remaining quarter of the pie in two, placing one eighth of the pie on the Democrats in Congress's plate, and and the other eighth on the Republicans in Congress's plate.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:42 am 
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Maybe they were. It wasn't much of a deal for them.

It was kind of like someone serving a pie cut in four pieces, placing three of the pieces on his plate. Then further subdividing the remaining quarter of the pie in two, placing one eighth of the pie on the Democrats in Congress's plate, and and the other eighth on the Republicans in Congress's plate.

X supports it. He doesn't think it is 7/8ths conservative.

Neither do I.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:48 am 
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I'm talking about the whole spending bill Trump wanted.

Not the side deal on immigration he might have been ok with, if he had to.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:51 am 
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I'm talking about the whole spending bill Trump wanted.

Not the side deal on immigration he might have been ok with, if he had to.

DACA is more important than any short-term budget expenditures IMO.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:16 am 
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DACA is more important than any short-term budget expenditures IMO.


I assume you're referring to the Hurd-Aguilar bill?

This bill: https://valadao.house.gov/uploadedfiles/h.r._4796_.pdf

The first section deals with the dreamers, sort of. I thought it was sort of weak. :|



There are more sections to the bill, the ones which concern me are:

"SEC. 213. CONTROL OR ERADICATION OF CARRIZO CANE AND SALT CEDAR" Along the Rio Grand, page 45.

"SEC. 2009. OPERATION STONEGARDEN." Page 49.



This part alarms me, page 53:

"TITLE III—REDUCING SIGNIFICANT DELAYS IN IMMIGRATION COURT"

"The Attorney General of the United States shall increase the total number of immigration judges to adjudicate pending cases and efficiently process future cases by at least—

(1) 55 judges during fiscal year 2018;
(2) an additional 55 judges during fiscal year 2019; and
(3) an additional 55 judges during fiscal year 2020."


Jeff Sessions in charge of packing the immigration courts. :|


"TITLE IV—ADVANCING REFORMS IN CENTRAL AMERICA TO ADDRESS THE FACTORS DRIVING MIGRATION" This part merely concerns me. page 56.

"Subtitle A—Effectively Coordinating United States Engagement in Central America" More alarming, page 57.

And there's more, more or less concerning.



I don't think this is the kind of bill to take up and pass on three days notice before an engineered deadline. :|


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:26 am 
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Again, open borders. Democrats will support anything that enables illegal immigration, even maintaining an unprecedented judicial backlog.

I know, I know. Everyone is corrupt. Except immigration judges have little effect on deportations. They are rubber stamps regardless of who appointed them. They usually lack any authority to prevent the deportation of an illegal immigrant the government wants deported.

Amnesty for Dreamers? Yes! We need it! But not if it means we are going to allow non-dreamers to have their extradition hearings faster!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:36 am 
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Again, open borders. Democrats will support anything that enables illegal immigration, even maintaining an unprecedented judicial backlog.

I know, I know. Everyone is corrupt. Except immigration judges have little effect on deportations. They are rubber stamps regardless of who appointed them. They usually lack any authority to prevent the deportation of an illegal immigrant the government wants deported.

Amnesty for Dreamers? Yes! We need it! But not if it means we are going to allow non-dreamers to have their extradition hearings faster!


You brushed aside what I said my concerns are, and replaced it with misrepresentation and a broad stereotype. :|


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:29 am 
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Democrats will support anything that enables illegal immigration, even maintaining an unprecedented judicial backlog.


Yeah, j-dogg, I can see making statements like this shows you have the unbiased view here.

The kernel often used to say the same stuff.

Why not go whole hog? Donald says 3 million undocumented aliens voted for his opponent. Let's put out the whole CT. Democrats are only doing this to get more voters. We're busing them in, then getting them to illegally vote for us. That's what this is all about.

There couldn't be anything having to do with, well, treating human beings like human beings. Regardless of status.

This kind of reminds me when cities adopt harm reduction programs, opponents say "we're trying to enable drug addiction". No, we're trying to save addicts from dying. There is a difference.

P.S. I again will repeat, when one side shows up with proposals and is ready to discuss substance (the CHC), and the other doesn't seem to care about that stuff (Kelly & Trump) and showed up unprepared, it's the other guys who obviously don't want a deal.

Reality TV star is going to go golfing and have a massive fundraiser at his WPB club if, when, the gov't shuts down. The point is, he doesn't seem to care whether it will or won't. He doesn't care about the Dreamers, who a shutdown will affect. Only TV ratings for his Whitehouse Shitshow.

Trust me, if a shutdown happens, Agent Drama Queen will try and spin it that the Dems were at fault. There may be one person on this board that agrees, but I will continue to show that to be nonsense.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:20 pm 
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So? Pontius Pilot washed his own hands.


So? That's the best you got, is...so?

Quote:
Protecting the Dreamers is, by the way, enormously popular, even among Republicans, who oppose deporting them by a huge margin. So it’s not as if the G.O.P. would be giving up a lot. But Donald Trump torpedoed the deal, apparently because he doesn’t want immigrants from “shithole countries.”
Paul Krugman NYT 1/19/18

This entire thing is on Donald Trump and any congressional Republicans who go along with his psychopathology because there might be something in it for them politically.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:26 pm 
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Democrats will support anything that enables illegal immigration, even maintaining an unprecedented judicial backlog.



Yeah, j-dogg, I can see making statements like this shows you have the unbiased view here.


Justin is our very own closeted conservative Republican gunner.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:48 pm 
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I think there's going to be a shut down now. The House voted for their budget last night and then got out of town, releasing their members to be free to leave starting around noon today.

That's hardball. It means the Senate must pass a bill which is identical in every way, or else. Else is a shutdown.

As far as I'm concerned the blame for a shutdown squarely rests on the back of House Republicans now for playing "my way or the highway," for leaving town before the job was done.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:08 pm 
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I think there's going to be a shut down now. The House voted for their budget last night and then got out of town, releasing their members to be free to leave starting around noon today.

That's hardball. It means the Senate must pass a bill which is identical in every way, or else. Else is a shutdown.

As far as I'm concerned the blame for a shutdown squarely rests on the back of House Republicans now for playing "my way or the highway," for leaving town before the job was done.


We have the politicians that the people elect and re-elect. The blame is on the people.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:10 pm 
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They left because some of them wanted to go to a Republican campaign rally.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:57 pm 
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You brushed aside what I said my concerns are, and replaced it with misrepresentation and a broad stereotype. :|

I don't think I did. You said your biggest concern with DACA legislation is the increased funding for immigration judges.

I never said I was impartial here. It is hilarious to hear people calling me a conservative for supporting immigration, amnesty, and DACA.

If your soulnconcern was that these new judges were going to be appointed by a Republican anti-immigrant Attorney General, and not the fact that there were going to be significantly more immigration judges, then maybe I did brush aside your concerns and misconstrue them. Yet your concerns are still unwarranted. It is a very rare circumstance where an immigration judge has any discretion in whether or not order a deportation of a person who was not here illegally. Those generally are amnesty claims, but American amnesty laws are based upon Nazism, and the extermination of people by their Sovereign government. So while even the claims are rare, it is even more rare that any judge actually grants one. Judges aren't the ones who are given the authority to determine who gets deported. They are just there to ensure that the process for deportation is followed. They are a lot Of people that immigration judges will go on record to say should not be deported from a position of public policy. But they will say so while ordering the deportation because their hands are tied.

I actually am supportive of nearly completely open borders, and nearly Universal amnesty. I'm not being conservative. I'm just being honest about my own beliefs and the P
practical implications of progressive policy. It sure seemed to me that you would hold up DACA over the hiring of more judges. Ergo, give up on Dreamers if undocumented immigrants will be deported faster as a result of the legislatipn...

If you aren't opposed to the increase for the same reason conservatives are for it (expedite deportations), many Democrats will oppose it for that same reason.

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Last edited by J_dogg82 on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:00 pm 
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So? That's the best you got, is...so?

Paul Krugman NYT 1/19/18

This entire thing is on Donald Trump and any congressional Republicans who go along with his psychopathology because there might be something in it for them politically.

That is an interesting opinion from Paul Krugman. However the factual reporting, rather than editorials, does not support his belief that racism was the reason that Trump torpedoed his own deal. As others have noted, the White House staff spent the day trying to walk back Donald Trump's tweets. Everybody reporting seems to agree that Donald Trump got angry about the media portrayals of his own chief of staff calling him uninformed. That is exactly the reaction I predicted. It was completely predictable.

Senator Graham saying this is somebody else's job now is the equivalent of washing his own hands of his responsibility. That isn't how responsibility works though.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Those generally are amnesty claims, but American amnesty laws are based upon Nazism, and the extermination of people by their Sovereign government


I'm sorry counselor. This will be an area of the law you will need to explain to me further, as I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean.

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