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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:53 pm 
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What do you mean by "does she have a place here"?

Listen, your defensiveness and resentments about #metoo are plain as the nose on your face. Like I said, this kind of story only resonates with you as an attempt to discredit #metoo. Why not just make an honest statement about that?


I have no resentments to metoo and I dont understand how including her discredits anything.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:25 pm 
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I have no resentments to metoo and I dont understand how including her discredits anything.


It doesn't. But it's the only reason you posted that HP article.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:24 pm 
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It doesn't. But it's the only reason you posted that HP article.


I posted it to facilitate discussion and that the discussion might include some people left out or not considered. I havent heard her name in any metoo discussion but considering her childhood I think shes worthy.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:27 pm 
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I posted it to facilitate discussion and that the discussion might include some people left out or not considered. I havent heard her name in any metoo discussion but considering her childhood I think shes worthy.


In light of the temper tantrum you've contiunuously thrown in this thread about #metoo, I don't buy that you posted this simply to facilitate discussion.

I think you should get honest with yourself about your relationship to the #metoo movement.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:44 pm 
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Homeless women are probably the most frequent victims of rape. It's definitely a problem.

I saw the movie Monster. It definitely humanized Aileen Wuornos for me, a fascinating portrayal by Charlize Theron, but it still left me with some questions.

She was a victim of sexual abuse, but it's not clear that every man she killed actually tried to rape or harm her. I think at one point she even admitted she killed some men purely out of revenge.

It's why I do sorta wonder whether that really makes her the best face for #metoo. Could you have found a different example than a serial killer, Motor? (Even if she is an unusual example of a female serial killer, and we can agree she had been a victim of rape and abuse?)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:12 pm 
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ProfessorX wrote:
Homeless women are probably the most frequent victims of rape. It's definitely a problem.

I saw the movie Monster. It definitely humanized Aileen Wuornos for me, a fascinating portrayal by Charlize Theron, but it still left me with some questions.

She was a victim of sexual abuse, but it's not clear that every man she killed actually tried to rape or harm her. I think at one point she even admitted she killed some men purely out of revenge.

It's why I do sorta wonder whether that really makes her the best face for #metoo. Could you have found a different example than a serial killer, Motor? (Even if she is an unusual example of a female serial killer, and we can agree she had been a victim of rape and abuse?)


well I think she was wrong in killing people I dont know what was self defense or not but what happened to her as a kid its heartbreaking and the aspects of insecurity and exclusion. I wouldnt say she should be the face of metoo but it should be recognized as the tradgedy it is and a lesson that nobody is a throwaway person.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:27 am 
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well I think she was wrong in killing people I dont know what was self defense or not but what happened to her as a kid its heartbreaking and the aspects of insecurity and exclusion. I wouldnt say she should be the face of metoo but it should be recognized as the tradgedy it is and a lesson that nobody is a throwaway person.


Who in the world is saying she is a throwaway person or treating her that way?

Were you even around in 1991-92 when every gay woman in America was cast in her shadows, thanks to the same mainstream ignorance about women's sexuality as what rages in anti-#metoo?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:20 pm 
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carmenjonze wrote:

Who in the world is saying she is a throwaway person or treating her that way?

Were you even around in 1991-92 when every gay woman in America was cast in her shadows, thanks to the same mainstream ignorance about women's sexuality as what rages in anti-#metoo?


whats anti metoo ? I do disagree with you and go u about ambushing someone and not giving them a chance to defend themselves and thats not likely to change but is the movement that narrow?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:30 pm 
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whats anti metoo ? I do disagree with you and go u about ambushing someone and not giving them a chance to defend themselves and thats not likely to change but is the movement that narrow?


Ambush.. what in the world are you talking about?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:52 pm 
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Ambush.. what in the world are you talking about?


firing someone immediately based on an accusation.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:10 pm 
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firing someone immediately based on an accusation.


And you know that's happened, because..?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:10 pm 
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well how would metoo help a young Aileen Wournos ? could firing people that violated her, keep her warm at night or shelter or feed her or keep her from being violated?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:26 pm 
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well how would metoo help a young Aileen Wournos ?


Now you're changing the subject. Where do you get the idea that people are "fired immediately" without a chance to defend themselves?

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could firing people that violated her, keep her warm at night or shelter or feed her or keep her from being violated?


This is a ridiculous question, MC. #metoo isn't about getting men fired. IDK why you keep denying that your only interest in this story is to try and discredit #metoo.

Another q. you keep avoiding: where were you when her story was LGBTQ news in the early 90s?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:33 pm 
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again

Motor City wrote:
well how would metoo help a young Aileen Wournos ? could firing people that violated her, keep her warm at night or shelter or feed her or keep her from being violated?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:35 pm 
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well how would metoo help a young Aileen Wournos ? could firing people that violated her, keep her warm at night or shelter or feed her or keep her from being violated?


:problem: Stop distorting what #metoo is. Its not about firing people.

Read up on it instead of these knee-jerk reactions.

Oh, and see Monster. You will have a much better idea about the Aileen Wuornos story if you do.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:41 pm 
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carmenjonze wrote:

:problem: Stop distorting what #metoo is. Its not about firing people.

Read up on it instead of these knee-jerk reactions.

Oh, and see Monster. You will have a much better idea about the Aileen Wuornos story if you do.


not distorting anything just asked a question. Ive seen the movie its mostly about when she was adult homeless and prostituting, the least amount of the movie was in the intro on her childhood but probly the most important. So I wonder and thats why I ask the question how would this current movement have affected this young woman if it were around then. I think thats a worthy discussion.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:46 pm 
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not distorting anything just asked a question. Ive seen the movie its mostly about when she was adult homeless and prostituting, the least amount of the movie was in the intro on her childhood but probly the most important. So I wonder and thats why I ask the question how would this current movement have affected this young woman if it were around then. I think thats a worthy discussion.


Uh-huh.

You're "just wondering" and "just asking a question" about the same time frame as Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas. Really?

Lol who do you think believes that? You're dishonest with yourself about your views about "this current movement".

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:54 am 
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OK, since we're on a hypothetical question.

Maybe if #metoo were around when she was younger, she would have become a activist, instead of a serial killer.

Are we done? (I'm giving a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question.)

BTW, if the other question is, should #metoo deal with sexual assaults against the homeless, I would say, of course, as I did, earlier. It's not the only thing the homeless pop. is vulnerable to, of course. They also (both men and women) get beaten up by kids who like to film the attacks (see: Bumfight). And that's rarely dealt with, either.

And yes, of course, sexual abuse against children of all genders is wrong, but #metoo didn't have to call attention to it. I think society already condemns it, but there the problem is (as with domestic abuse) "some things stay in the family".

For that matter, there's all the men who get raped in prison - comedians often make jokes about it, but it's a serious problem, one that should be paid attention to & stopped. (Especially since guards and wardens sometimes look the other way at the crime, if they don't even participate.)

I don't know what idea of #metoo is being suggested or challenged here. To me, the movement is about powerful people not getting away with sexual assault. That's mostly men on women but not always. That is sometimes someone in an employment-related situation, but not always. That those actions have consequences. It could be on your employment, or on your career, or on your bank account, on your reputation, or if necessary, interactions with the justice system. Whatever is appropriate. Not just about "being fired".

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:54 pm 
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engler trys to stop her from speaking by telling her times up

Nassar survivor: Engler offered $250,000 during meeting

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A survivor of abuse at the hands of former Michigan State University doctor Larry Nassar said Friday that interim President John Engler offered her $250,000 during a sit-down meeting where they discussed what the university has done in the wake of the Nassar scandal.

Kaylee Lorincz, who spoke during public comment at Friday’s MSU Board of Trustees meeting, said she asked for a meeting with Engler two weeks ago, hoping to share her story and be a part of MSU's healing process.

After explaining the steps MSU has taken in response to the Nassar scandal, Engler told Lorincz and her mother, Lisa, that cooperation between survivors and the university couldn’t occur until settlements in the civil litigation were reached, said Lorincz, who is one of the more than 200 women and girls suing MSU over Nassar's abuse.

"Mr. Engler then looked directly at me and asked, 'Right now, if I wrote you a check for $250,000 would you take it?'" Lorincz said. "When I explained that it’s not about the money for me and that I just want to help, he said, 'Well give me a number.' He also said that he had met with Rachael Denhollander and that she gave him a number."

Denhollander said in a phone conversation Friday afternoon that she hasn't spoken about money to anybody and that she was "horrified, absolutely disgusted" that Engler would lie to Lorincz about meeting with her.

"He lied to a sexual assault survivor to get what he wanted," she said. "That’s what Larry (Nassar) did."

Lorincz, who is 18, said that she felt like she was being bullied into something without her lawyer present and reiterated that she wasn't looking for money. It was at that point, Lorincz said, that Carol Viventi, vice president and special counsel to the president, stepped in to say the civil litigation was about money.

Lorincz referred to Viventi as Engler's attorney during her comment. That prompted Engler to respond that ...........


Kaylee Lorincz says MSU interim President John Engler attempted secret payoff

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:58 pm 
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OK, since we're on a hypothetical question.

Maybe if #metoo were around when she was younger, she would have become a activist, instead of a serial killer.

Are we done? (I'm giving a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question.)

BTW, if the other question is, should #metoo deal with sexual assaults against the homeless, I would say, of course, as I did, earlier. It's not the only thing the homeless pop. is vulnerable to, of course. They also (both men and women) get beaten up by kids who like to film the attacks (see: Bumfight). And that's rarely dealt with, either.

And yes, of course, sexual abuse against children of all genders is wrong, but #metoo didn't have to call attention to it. I think society already condemns it, but there the problem is (as with domestic abuse) "some things stay in the family".

For that matter, there's all the men who get raped in prison - comedians often make jokes about it, but it's a serious problem, one that should be paid attention to & stopped. (Especially since guards and wardens sometimes look the other way at the crime, if they don't even participate.)

I don't know what idea of #metoo is being suggested or challenged here. To me, the movement is about powerful people not getting away with sexual assault. That's mostly men on women but not always. That is sometimes someone in an employment-related situation, but not always. That those actions have consequences. It could be on your employment, or on your career, or on your bank account, on your reputation, or if necessary, interactions with the justice system. Whatever is appropriate. Not just about "being fired".


I kinda doubt she would be an activist, I also doubt much if anything would have changed for her, based on what you said its more about doling out consequences than uplifting though I can see how that could happen as well in some cases but it relies on a theme common to what often enables it which is personal insecurity. what are the consequences of induced insecurity on people that dont deserve it? could it cause more of the same? I agree on the issue of prison rape is no joke.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:10 pm 
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I think the principle again comes down to this.

As long as powerful people (usually men, like Harvey Weinstein, not always) can get away with sexual assault (usually on women; sometimes men, sometimes children) with impunity, these assaults will continue.

It's not complicated. People need to be secure from unwanted rape and sexual assault. As long as assaulters - whether in the Oval Office, the casting couch, wherever else - know they can get away with it with impunity - it won't stop.

Nothing I've said says I believe people innocent or falsely accused should be punished or that they should get no "due process". I have pointed out it's not always clear what that means if they are not facing either a civil or criminal trial. But yes, I believe even if it's HR involved in an employment situation, there should be investigation of the matter and determination of evidence.

Also, of course, as with the Franken situation, we have to evaluate the comparative severity of actions. I think there's a difference between thrusting your hand up a woman's genitals while forcing them against a wall, and maybe - albeit tactlessly and with some inappropriateness, I agree - putting your hand on their waist while taking a photo.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:01 pm 
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well what makes people like weinstein or president of msu powerful is the insecurity of people around them compared to their own overabundance of security. so advocating for fairness and stability in employment I think are important here and respect your opinion on that as well.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:03 pm 
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MSU community won't find trust again until Engler, board of trustees are gone

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..........Two months ago, as Engler replaced disgraced former MSU president Lou Anna Simon, I thought he might be a decent choice for MSU, even considering the grumbling from those who didn’t agree with his politics or like him as Michigan’s governor years ago.

Engler is, first and foremost, a bully. But if he’s your bully, that can work. He got things done as governor because Republicans in the state legislature, his own party, feared him.

MSU needed someone to rattle its cage and stick up for it as it tried to move on — and protect it financially. His forceful personality and polarizing legacy, I thought, would make it easier for the next president to lead, as well. I still do...............


geez

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:40 am 
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Top Engler aide apologizes for e-mail attacking Nassar survivors

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A top aide to Michigan State University Interim President John Engler offered an apology Wednesday, hours after the Free Press published a private e-mail to board members in which she criticized Larry Nassar's survivors.

"I offer my sincerest and most heartfelt apology for the letter I sent to MSU leaders after the Board meeting," Carol Viventi's statement said. Viventi is vice president and special counsel to Engler. "I did not think about how my words would make the survivors feel. What the survivors of Larry Nassar have been through should not be experienced by anyone, and I’m sorry my words added to their pain."

Attorney John Manly, who represents many of the Nassar survivors wasn't buying Vicenti's apology, saying she was just sorry because her e-mail was found out.

"If anyone (at MSU) had any common sense, they would toss her out of the building posthaste," he told the Free Press. "Until those people (Engler and the board) are gone, MSU won't recover from this. These people in that board room and presidential suite are tearing MSU apart in chunks."

Earlier Wednesday, the Free Press published an article detailing Viventi's statements to board members, including calling an account by Nassar survivor Kaylee Lorincz that Engler offered her $250,000 to settle her lawsuit against the university in a private meeting without her attorney "false news."

“I am saddened but not surprised by MSU Vice President Carol Viventi’s callous attempt to discredit me, my sister survivors and our attorneys," Lorincz said in a statement following the publication of the story. "There is nothing worse that someone can do to a sexual assault survivor than to disbelieve and attempt to silence them. President Engler had every opportunity to dispute my truthful testimony at the board meeting. Instead, he shouted at me, 'your time is up.'

"After the board meeting, he issued a public statement that did not dispute my account of the meeting where he offered me a $250,000 payoff without my attorney present. He only said, 'I am sorry if anything said during the meeting was misunderstood.' Through the efforts of the media, we now know that Engler’s official 'Special Counsel,' Ms. Viventi, sent e-mails to the Board disparaging me.

"Even more shocking are Ms. Viventi's claim that MSU’s legal adviser Bob Young accused me of trying to 'set up MSU.' This is the kind of protectionist attitude and hostility toward sexual assault victims that enabled Larry Nassar to molest me and hundreds of other girls at MSU for more than two decades."...............

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