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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:55 am 
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It's a patriarchal world, Sam. There's something way wrong with you.

We make her paint her face and dance
If she won't be aslave, we say that she don't love us
If she's real, we say she's trying to be a man
While putting her down we pretend that she is above us
Woman is the nigger of the world, yes she is
If you don't believe me take a look to the one you're with
Woman is the slave to the slaves
Ah yeah, better scream about it
We make her bear and raise our children
And then we leave her flat for being a fat old mother hen
We tell her home is the only place she should be
Then we complain that she's too unworldly to be our friend
Woman is the nigger of the world, yes she is
If you don't believe me take a look to the one you're with
Oh woman is the slave to the slaves
Yeah, alright

Reckon are you done calling for people to resign or be fired based upon an unruly mob's suspicion that black people are being gunned down in the streets by the police for no reason other than they are black people.

The world is what it is, Sam. Due process has had thousands of years to make it something else and due process has fucking failed. Because white males have been in charge of whatever bullshit due process that exists.

ACORN sure as shit didn't get due process......After it was dismantled..... oops.... I guess James Okeefe may have doctored thing a bit..... oh well.... too late now....

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:59 pm 
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Don't kill the messenger...Just throwing it out there.......


Mika Brzezinski voiced renewed skepticism Monday over the growth of the #MeToo movement, saying there has been a lack of honesty in public discourse over the issue of sexual harassment.

She also defended men unfairly whom she said have been swept up in the mania.

“Men are not the only aggressors. Men are not the only people with bad intentions. Men are not the only people who play dirty,” said Brzezinski on “Morning Joe.” “We’ve only talked about women as perfect victims.”

Brzezinski added that she had had many “honest” conversations about #MeToo at “dinner tables” but that discussing the issue in public remained dangerous.

“I’ve had incredible conversations with women and men over dinner tables where we’ve been amazingly honest about how complicated this really is,” she said. “But you try and say it in a public forum and, boy, you get burned at the stake in a way that almost feels like we’re back in time.”

https://www.thewrap.com/mika-brzezinski ... ggressors/

Keillor's getting a bit pissy about it.....
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ga ... 2532681ac0

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:07 pm 
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The world, including this country, is a barbarous patriarchy. This whataboutery outta Mika Brzezinski (whatabout what women do????), flies in the face of the realities of the world we inhabit.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Due process may have a different meaning in a work environment. The point is, a lot of people are fired for workplace behaviors that don't lead to interactions with the legal system.

Lots of people are dismissed, fired from their workplaces without cause. As Ike frequently reminds us, most of this country has at-will employment. Sure, there's tenure in academe and some unions who've negotiated some protections, but most people don't have them. This means your boss can fire you because he doesn't like your hair, or for no reason at all. Seasonal layoffs.

In theory, if you're being fired for sexual harassment or other inappropriate behaviors in your workplace, HR should properly investigate them and attempt to verify them. In theory. I think Carmen is right about how useless HR is in most workplaces.

But, unfortunately, people are often fired for workplace accusations without any substantiation. "He was stealing from the back room!" Do you think in every case the employer has ironclad proof of same? Why would this area be any different?

I'm not saying it's good or bad - it's the nature of work in America. You can be fired at will. Lots of people deserve due process they never get.

People complain about tenure, but it at least means for the shrinking number of teachers who have it, your employer has to show cause for your dismissal. (It does NOT mean they can't be fired, including for inappropriate sexual conduct.)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:26 pm 
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I hope that what is happening in the culture will be the precursor of women finally receiving equal protection under the law.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:52 pm 
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I hope that what is happening in the culture will be the precursor of women finally receiving equal protection under the law.


it will be whatever people make of it

http://radiofreeliberal.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22056&p=391842#p391200

careful what it becomes doesn't make our country into what we despise

some have lots and lots of security when it comes to job and finances

Lou Anna Simon's resignation from MSU comes with lifetime of perks

some have none

what does it benefit us to have an unfair process?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:03 pm 
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it will be whatever people make of it

http://radiofreeliberal.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22056&p=391842#p391200

careful what it becomes doesn't make our country into what we despise

some have lots and lots of security when it comes to job and finances

Lou Anna Simon's resignation from MSU comes with lifetime of perks

some have none

what does it benefit us to have an unfair process?


The process now IS unfair. Women who come forward are immediately considered to be lying, and the managers have all the power and are believed. And companies support them, even if they know it's true. In the situation I was involved in, nearly everyone in the department witnessed the actions. But the woman was hounded until she quit and then she filed suit. They took depositions from about 40 witnesses, all of whom laid out the actions of the supervisor. She was paid off a year's pay or so to go away, and he was moved to another department for a couple of years before he retired.

She was lucky; she had a union, so her co-workers didn't have to fear for their jobs by testifying against the manager.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:30 pm 
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The process now IS unfair. Women who come forward are immediately considered to be lying, and the managers have all the power and are believed. And companies support them, even if they know it's true. In the situation I was involved in, nearly everyone in the department witnessed the actions. But the woman was hounded until she quit and then she filed suit. They took depositions from about 40 witnesses, all of whom laid out the actions of the supervisor. She was paid off a year's pay or so to go away, and he was moved to another department for a couple of years before he retired.

She was lucky; she had a union, so her co-workers didn't have to fear for their jobs by testifying against the manager.


Why are same Michigan State officials making post-Nassar decisions?

but I think deep down you know if a person is wrongly accused that they and their families shouldn't suffer such consequences as being banned from work and wiping out all the good they have done at least I hope you do as a union person anyways. not discouraging people seeking justice just have a fair process.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:42 pm 
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Why are same Michigan State officials making post-Nassar decisions?

but I think deep down you know if a person is wrongly accused that they and their families shouldn't suffer such consequences as being banned from work and wiping out all the good they have done at least I hope you do as a union person anyways. not discouraging people seeking justice just have a fair process.

I think your link makes my point.

I've seen a system at many of my workplaces where the deck was stacked so much it was as if the greatest card shark in the world stacked it.

I think far more lives and families have been ruined on the victim side of the problem than bosses being falsely accused.

I know in the case I spoke of the manager didn't suffer at all, kept working. But the woman lost a good union job with only a year's pay. Without the predator, she could have stayed and retired at the company, providing a good living for decades.

Lucky for her, this man was dumb enough to do it all out in the open, with the whole shop as a witness.

One woman in another department I didn't have direct knowledge of was dating a police detective. He wired her. When she make the accusation, and the harassment was pretty extreme, she didn't mention the tapes, and she was immediately fired. This is even though the manager was a known horndog.

So, they got a lawyer, and not only did she get a big payout, but the manager WAS terminated, and she was returned to work.

But she wasn't looking for money. She was looking for dignity and respect. Something the company wasn't interested in.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:05 pm 
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It's a patriarchal world, Sam. There's something way wrong with you.

We make her paint her face and dance
If she won't be aslave, we say that she don't love us
If she's real, we say she's trying to be a man
While putting her down we pretend that she is above us
Woman is the nigger of the world, yes she is
If you don't believe me take a look to the one you're with
Woman is the slave to the slaves
Ah yeah, better scream about it
We make her bear and raise our children
And then we leave her flat for being a fat old mother hen
We tell her home is the only place she should be
Then we complain that she's too unworldly to be our friend
Woman is the nigger of the world, yes she is
If you don't believe me take a look to the one you're with
Oh woman is the slave to the slaves
Yeah, alright

Reckon are you done calling for people to resign or be fired based upon an unruly mob's suspicion that black people are being gunned down in the streets by the police for no reason other than they are black people.

The world is what it is, Sam. Due process has had thousands of years to make it something else and due process has fucking failed. Because white males have been in charge of whatever bullshit due process that exists.


Whatever! :roll: :roll: :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:13 pm 
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I think your link makes my point.

I've seen a system at many of my workplaces where the deck was stacked so much it was as if the greatest card shark in the world stacked it.

I think far more lives and families have been ruined on the victim side of the problem than bosses being falsely accused.

I know in the case I spoke of the manager didn't suffer at all, kept working. But the woman lost a good union job with only a year's pay. Without the predator, she could have stayed and retired at the company, providing a good living for decades.

Lucky for her, this man was dumb enough to do it all out in the open, with the whole shop as a witness.

One woman in another department I didn't have direct knowledge of was dating a police detective. He wired her. When she make the accusation, and the harassment was pretty extreme, she didn't mention the tapes, and she was immediately fired. This is even though the manager was a known horndog.

So, they got a lawyer, and not only did she get a big payout, but the manager WAS terminated, and she was returned to work.

But she wasn't looking for money. She was looking for dignity and respect. Something the company wasn't interested in.



Quote:
.......A tragic tsunami has washed over MSU, and some board members and donors are trying to step over the victims like unwelcome debris........


yea I dont see being unfair to people as changing a culture of such massive inequality. The President resigned but is better than fine in spite of a tsunami.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:19 pm 
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yea I dont see being unfair to people as changing a culture of such massive inequality. The President resigned but is better than fine in spite of a tsunami.

What about the people that girls went to for help, who ignored or called the girls liars?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:36 pm 
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What about the people that girls went to for help, who ignored or called the girls liars?


How do we discern between who is telling the truth and who is lying?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:14 pm 
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How do we discern between who is telling the truth and who is lying?

Well, how we do it now, is the women are automatically considered liars, and the bosses are automatically trusted to tell the truth.

Does that work for you?

I mean, a bunch of these little girls went to adults for help. None of the were believed. Even Rachael Denhollander wasn't believed:

But on Aug. 29, 2016, when I filed the first police complaint against Larry Nassar for sexually abusing me when I was a 15-year-old girl and chose to release a very public story detailing what he had done, it felt like a shot in the dark. I came as prepared as possible: I brought medical journals showing what real pelvic floor technique looks like; my medical records, which showed that Larry had never mentioned that he used such techniques even though he had penetrated me; the names of three pelvic floor experts ready to testify to police that Larry’s treatment was not medical; other records from a nurse practitioner documenting my disclosure of abuse in 2004; my journals from that time; and a letter from a neighboring district attorney vouching for my character. I worried that any less meant I would not be believed — a concern I later learned was merited.

My education as a lawyer prepared me for the process and presentation. But absolutely nothing could have prepared me for the pain of being the first to go public with my accusations in The Indianapolis Star.

I lost my church. I lost my closest friends as a result of advocating for survivors who had been victimized by similar institutional failures in my own community.

I lost every shred of privacy.

When a new friend searched my name online or added me as a friend on Facebook, the most intimate details of my life became available long before we had even exchanged phone numbers. I avoided the grocery stores on some days, to make sure my children didn’t see my face on the newspaper or a magazine. I was asked questions about things no one should know when I least wanted to talk.

And the effort it took to move this case forward — especially as some called me an “ambulance chaser” just “looking for a payday” — often felt crushing.

Yet all of it served as a reminder: These were the very cultural dynamics that had allowed Larry Nassar to remain in power.


Read the whole thing, glen. Better yet, read her full comments in court.

Glen, for chrissakes, you have THREE DAUGHTERS! Is the status quo what you support? Don't you think things NEED to change?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:30 pm 
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Well, how we do it now, is the women are automatically considered liars, and the bosses are automatically trusted to tell the truth.

Does that work for you?

I mean, a bunch of these little girls went to adults for help. None of the were believed. Even Rachael Denhollander wasn't believed:

But on Aug. 29, 2016, when I filed the first police complaint against Larry Nassar for sexually abusing me when I was a 15-year-old girl and chose to release a very public story detailing what he had done, it felt like a shot in the dark. I came as prepared as possible: I brought medical journals showing what real pelvic floor technique looks like; my medical records, which showed that Larry had never mentioned that he used such techniques even though he had penetrated me; the names of three pelvic floor experts ready to testify to police that Larry’s treatment was not medical; other records from a nurse practitioner documenting my disclosure of abuse in 2004; my journals from that time; and a letter from a neighboring district attorney vouching for my character. I worried that any less meant I would not be believed — a concern I later learned was merited.

My education as a lawyer prepared me for the process and presentation. But absolutely nothing could have prepared me for the pain of being the first to go public with my accusations in The Indianapolis Star.

I lost my church. I lost my closest friends as a result of advocating for survivors who had been victimized by similar institutional failures in my own community.

I lost every shred of privacy.

When a new friend searched my name online or added me as a friend on Facebook, the most intimate details of my life became available long before we had even exchanged phone numbers. I avoided the grocery stores on some days, to make sure my children didn’t see my face on the newspaper or a magazine. I was asked questions about things no one should know when I least wanted to talk.

And the effort it took to move this case forward — especially as some called me an “ambulance chaser” just “looking for a payday” — often felt crushing.

Yet all of it served as a reminder: These were the very cultural dynamics that had allowed Larry Nassar to remain in power.


Read the whole thing, glen. Better yet, read her full comments in court.

Glen, for chrissakes, you have THREE DAUGHTERS! Is the status quo what you support? Don't you think things NEED to change?




I also have 3 soon to be 4 grandsons who I wouldn't want to see falsely accused. It seems the burden of proof in these matters falls upon the person being accused. While you are 100% correct that it is very hard to prove it is equally as hard to disprove once a person is accused.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:33 pm 
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I also have 3 soon to be 4 grandsons who I wouldn't want to see falsely accused. It seems the burden of proof in these matters falls upon the person being accused. While you are 100% correct that it is very hard to prove it is equally as hard to disprove once a person is accused.

So, you're more concerned about your grandsons. Got it. I take it you didn't read the links, did you?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:58 pm 
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So, you're more concerned about your grandsons. Got it. I take it you didn't read the links, did you?


Not only have I read the links I have heard the news reports the links were about. It is just a very hard thing to prove or disprove. Once a man is accused he is assumed guilty by way to many and even if it is shown he did not do anything wrong his career is pretty much over.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:01 pm 
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Not only have I read the links I have heard the news reports the links were about. It is just a very hard thing to prove or disprove. Once a man is accused he is assumed guilty by way to many and even if it is shown he did not do anything wrong his career is pretty much over.

So you want the status quo - no, you want to back up to the time when the man was assumed to be truthful, and the woman was a liar. Case closed, right?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:03 pm 
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So you want the status quo - no, you want to back up to the time when the man was assumed to be truthful, and the woman was a liar. Case closed, right?


Not at all but, it seems you want the man given a fair trial where he is found guilty. This onion has so many layers. Hopefully the end result will be in the future men will learn to keep it in their pants.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:07 pm 
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Not at all but, it seems you want the man given a fair trial where he is found guilty. This onion has so many layers. Hopefully the end result will be in the future men will learn to keep it in their pants.


Rachael Denhollander should be the most credible witness of all. Yet she was disbelieved, denounced and vilified.

Glen, in this case, where we don't have videotaped evidence, how would you suggest we try such cases in the future? If this were your daughter at eight years old, how do you think it should be handled?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:17 pm 
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Rachael Denhollander should be the most credible witness of all. Yet she was disbelieved, denounced and vilified.

Glen, in this case, where we don't have videotaped evidence, how would you suggest we try such cases in the future? If this were your daughter at eight years old, how do you think it should be handled?


When my oldest was 8 years old my dad was still alive. So he would have put the perp in the ground.

I am thinking more along the lines of middle mangers being falsely accused. When I was in that position I never did nor was accused of any bad behavior. But, because I was the "angel of death" so to speak and was put in under performing stores to straighten them out in todays world I could have easily been falsely accused.

As I was universally hated by many employees the minute I hit the door. As they knew my job was to clean house. The last store I had a couple of employees quit as soon as they heard I was coming. Getting payback on managers like I was would be very easy and enticing. By the thieves and ne'er-do-wells I was there to replace.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:19 pm 
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When my oldest was 8 years old my dad was still alive. So he would have put the perp in the ground.

I am thinking more along the lines of middle mangers being falsely accused. When I was in that position I never did nor was accused of any bad behavior. But, because I was the "angel of death" so to speak and was put in under performing stores to straighten them out in todays world I could have easily been falsely accused.

As I was universally hated by many employees the minute I hit the door. As they knew my job was to clean house. The last store I had a couple of employees quit as soon as they heard I was coming. Getting payback on managers like I was would be very easy and enticing. By the thieves and ne'er-do-wells I was there to replace.

You seem to believe the vast majority of accusations are false.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:55 pm 
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it will be whatever people make of it

http://radiofreeliberal.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22056&p=391842#p391200

careful what it becomes doesn't make our country into what we despise

some have lots and lots of security when it comes to job and finances

Lou Anna Simon's resignation from MSU comes with lifetime of perks

some have none

what does it benefit us to have an unfair process?


Anybody can come up with an incident. The fact remains that it's been almost 250 years of this country's history that has women waiting for equal protection under the law. And by the way...American women have always had way more equal protection under the law than American children.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:19 pm 
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When my oldest was 8 years old my dad was still alive. So he would have put the perp in the ground.

Yeah, there's a solution... :roll:
Quote:
I am thinking more along the lines of middle mangers being falsely accused. When I was in that position I never did nor was accused of any bad behavior. But, because I was the "angel of death" so to speak and was put in under performing stores to straighten them out in todays world I could have easily been falsely accused.

As I was universally hated by many employees the minute I hit the door. As they knew my job was to clean house. The last store I had a couple of employees quit as soon as they heard I was coming. Getting payback on managers like I was would be very easy and enticing. By the thieves and ne'er-do-wells I was there to replace.

So, you think women are liars that are always falsely accusing men...

Arguing for the status quo. You're just worried about the men.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:54 am 
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Whatever! :roll: :roll: :roll:


Samantha the valley girl speaks her most powerful rebuke.

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