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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:55 pm 
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Yeah, if I had wanted to be put in my place by a union. One size fits all. At that age I was of an uncommon size.

I eventually did want that once I got older and somewhat slowed down by age. And I had seen the world, and had had my fill of excitement. For quite a few years I liked being sent by land, sea, or air, to where there was trouble. I liked being a trouble shooter.

But then later in life I wanted to settle down and have a family too. Then a union had a place for me which didn't necessarily place me in my place.

Unions aren't one-size-fits-all. It's the ability for workers to stand together and bargain a contract.

I was able to excel in a union environment. It never held ME back.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:00 pm 
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No. We are talking about the rights of workers to do as they please in their time off. Smoking is legal. There is NO reason WHATSOEVER for a company to demand someone live their life a certain way when they aren't on the job. Sure, the company has the right to ban smoking on their time and on their property.

But not at a person's home.

Of course, you believe ONLY the company has rights, and can do anything it wants.

I don't. That's where we differ.

No. Here's where we differ. I never said ONLY the company has rights and can do anything it wants. Never said it. You can't show a single post where I ever made such a claim. For you to say that is a lie. Plain and simple. A lie.

That's where we differ. We can't just differ on a policy. You have to turn it into something else to try to make a war out of it. You can't do that truthfully, so you make shit up and lie.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:01 pm 
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No. Here's where we differ. I never said ONLY the company has rights and can do anything it wants. Never said it. You can't show a single post where I ever made such a claim. For you to say that is a lie. Plain and simple. A lie.

That's where we differ. We can't just differ on a policy. You have to turn it into something else to try to make a war out of it. You can't do that truthfully, so you make shit up and lie.

Oh?

So why should a company be able to tell people what to do off the job?

The only way you can make that argument is that you think the company, not the worker, has all the rights.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Unions aren't one-size-fits-all. It's the ability for workers to stand together and bargain a contract.

I was able to excel in a union environment. It never held ME back.


That's great for most of the workers. During that roustabout time of my life I'm referring to, I was commanding about two to three times of the scale that I would have been paid had I been under a union standing with my fellows together bargaining for contract.

I would have been the bargain. Even after that roustabout time was over, the first two unions I was a member of, I still dealt with my personal contract independent from the union, and was paid more than the going scale.

When I came out of the mountains and stopped going to sea, and eventually got to and settled down the bay area i joined with the plumbers union, and there I found the prevailing scale was as much as I could contract for on my own, that was the only time I ever worked for scale. That last 7 or 8 years.

I made 10% extra above scale for being a supervisor, and even some more for hours I worked being an instructor teaching the apprentices two nights a week. During those years I fit right in. That Union had a place for me. And that's where I finished.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:27 pm 
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That's great for most of the workers. During that roustabout time of my life I'm referring to, I was commanding about two to three times of the scale that I would have been paid had I been under a union standing with my fellows together bargaining for contract.

I would have been the bargain. Even after that roustabout time was over, the first two unions I was a member of, I still dealt with my personal contract independent from the union, and was paid more than the going scale.

When I came out of the mountains and stopped going to sea, and eventually got to and settled down the bay area i joined with the plumbers union, and there I found the prevailing scale was as much as I could contract for on my own, that was the only time I ever worked for scale. That last 7 or 8 years.

I made 10% extra above scale for being a supervisor, and even some more for hours I worked being an instructor teaching the apprentices two nights a week. During those years I fit right in. That Union had a place for me. And that's where I finished.

Good for you, but it's obvious you really don't understand what unionism is about.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:36 pm 
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Good for you, but it's obvious you really don't understand what unionism is about.


I understand it well. I just ignore the dogma. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:38 pm 
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I understand it well. I just ignore the dogma. :)

No dogma to it. But if you have to think that to keep your feeling of superiority, go ahead.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:00 pm 
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Paternal companies are very big in Asia, where the individual is considered less important than the people as a whole, and we've seen the results. They're not pretty.

A lot of our entrepreneurs here demand total commitment. You're not working for them, you're in their army, and your ass is theirs. The fabled Elon Musk, with his old car flying proudly through space, is that way. One guy was given the choice of attending a family funeral and then working somewhere else, or sticking around and helping Musk change the world. That's practically a quote.

Technology makes paternal companies easier. The boss can call on the cell phone at any hour. That does not seem to upset many people. What happens is that a lot of people are essentially working 24/7. There are no off hours. Hence the desire to have them in work mode all the time, I imagine.

In Europe, you still hear about a division between work and life. Here... not so much.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:12 pm 
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Paternal companies are very big in Asia, where the individual is considered less important than the people as a whole, and we've seen the results. They're not pretty.

A lot of our entrepreneurs here demand total commitment. You're not working for them, you're in their army, and your ass is theirs. The fabled Elon Musk, with his old car flying proudly through space, is that way. One guy was given the choice of attending a family funeral and then working somewhere else, or sticking around and helping Musk change the world. That's practically a quote.

Technology makes paternal companies easier. The boss can call on the cell phone at any hour. That does not seem to upset many people. What happens is that a lot of people are essentially working 24/7. There are no off hours. Hence the desire to have them in work mode all the time, I imagine.

In Europe, you still hear about a division between work and life. Here... not so much.


If you don't mind taking calls after hours, I don't see the harm. Personally, if something is blowing up then I would rather know about it before I arrived at work the next morning. If one of my subordinates or colleagues has a question they need answered because it is holding them up, I would rather take the call than have them spin their wheels or be unproductive. I carry a cellphone and a couple of laptops pretty much everywhere I go. I'm used to it. I don't mind. It's part of the job. I get that its probably cultural but if the worker doesn't mind I guess I don't see the harm.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:20 pm 
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If you don't mind taking calls after hours, I don't see the harm. Personally, if something is blowing up then I would rather know about it before I arrived at work the next morning. If one of my subordinates or colleagues has a question they need answered because it is holding them up, I would rather take the call than have them spin their wheels or be unproductive. I carry a cellphone and a couple of laptops pretty much everywhere I go. I'm used to it. I don't mind. It's part of the job. I get that its probably cultural but if the worker doesn't mind I guess I don't see the harm.

If you're an hourly worker, you should get at least an hour minimum overtime for taking the call. It's that simple.

Now, if you're a salaried worker, it's different. I'm "on call" all the time. My hours are all over the place. But I make good money and accept that. But even I can have drinks after work, and if I'm called at the bar, the company needs to understand. Of course, that's not my life anymore. I rarely drink.

I will also once again point out the distinction - a for-profit vs. a non-profit. A for-profit has no right in regulating your life on any moral grounds. Your personal life is yours, as long as it's legal. They have no right to tell you not to drink or smoke. Now, if you work for the Mormon Church, they should be able to tell you not to live against the church. They should be able to hire only Mormons. I mean, should they have to hire a Muslim to be a minister? Of course not.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:23 pm 
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Ruth Bader Ginsberg is live on CNN right now - and is talking about the Hobby Lobby case. Yes, the leaders of the company have deeply held religious beliefs - but as a for-profit company, they have no right forcing their religion on their employees.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:24 pm 
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Notice that I didn't say that I thought getting calls in off hours was necessarily bad. It depends on the position, of course. If you own the business, that's the life you've chosen. Also professionals in some fields just assume that's how it is. Fires with clients get fought in real time, especially if there's some news story about to go out that changes the game. It's part of the service. We have one client where the arrangement is that if consultation is needed over the phone, the meter starts running a la lawyers.

Before cell phones you were checking your e-mail every couple of hours.

It does lead to the idea that you're never off, though.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Notice that I didn't say that I thought getting calls in off hours was necessarily bad. It depends on the position, of course. If you own the business, that's the life you've chosen. Also professionals in some fields just assume that's how it is. Fires with clients get fought in real time, especially if there's some news story about to go out that changes the game. It's part of the service. We have one client where the arrangement is that if consultation is needed over the phone, the meter starts running a la lawyers.

Before cell phones you were checking your e-mail every couple of hours.

It does lead to the idea that you're never off, though.

Very correct. Salaried workers are paid well enough to justify the on-call status. But again, hourly workers should not be expected to be answering emails or taking calls after hours. That would be overtime pay if they are required to do so.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:43 pm 
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Notice that I didn't say that I thought getting calls in off hours was necessarily bad. It depends on the position, of course. If you own the business, that's the life you've chosen. Also professionals in some fields just assume that's how it is. Fires with clients get fought in real time, especially if there's some news story about to go out that changes the game. It's part of the service. We have one client where the arrangement is that if consultation is needed over the phone, the meter starts running a la lawyers.

Before cell phones you were checking your e-mail every couple of hours.

It does lead to the idea that you're never off, though.


My first job out of college was for a big 8 accounting firm as a tax staff person. I was a December graduate so I jumped right into the middle of busy season. I don't think I saw my apartment in the daylight until after April. That was the job. That was the profession. We were expected to bill 60 to 65 hours per week.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:48 pm 
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My first job out of college was for a big 8 accounting firm as a tax staff person. I was a December graduate so I jumped right into the middle of busy season. I don't think I saw my apartment in the daylight until after April. That was the job. That was the profession. We were expected to bill 60 to 65 hours per week.

...and corporations would like to make EVERYONE do that ALL THE TIME. That's why they are still fighting the 40-hour week.

Personally, I think that we shouldn't have a nation where work is all there is. There's something important to be said for the 40-hour week and for the weekend. Conservatives are supposed to be pro-family, but they want to work employees like dogs and cut their wages. Not very family-friendly.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Paternal companies are very big in Asia, where the individual is considered less important than the people as a whole, and we've seen the results. They're not pretty.

A lot of our entrepreneurs here demand total commitment. You're not working for them, you're in their army, and your ass is theirs. The fabled Elon Musk, with his old car flying proudly through space, is that way. One guy was given the choice of attending a family funeral and then working somewhere else, or sticking around and helping Musk change the world. That's practically a quote.

Technology makes paternal companies easier. The boss can call on the cell phone at any hour. That does not seem to upset many people. What happens is that a lot of people are essentially working 24/7. There are no off hours. Hence the desire to have them in work mode all the time, I imagine.

In Europe, you still hear about a division between work and life. Here... not so much.

While attending junior college in the early, I had a business class instructor telling us his background. He worked for what we'd call a "tycoon" back then and the guy would call him at 4 a.m. and tell him he needs to catch a flight a 7 a.m. to fly to some part of the world for the company. No advanced notice, no consideration for him or his family. His boss was only concerned about his business. The instructor said after years of living like that he had enough and quit and took a huge pay cut to become a teacher. He said he made the right decision because he's happy, has good working hours, little stress, and a life.

Having been assigned to bases in Germany and England (twice each), their jobs don't define who they are, like here in the U.S.. They define their life as they want it defined and if their bosses don't like it they can go to hell.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:37 pm 
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I understand it well. I just ignore the dogma. :)


Some unions are better than others. The 49ers and labors unions here have dropped a lot of the dogma. They've laxed off seniority,(if your in it for a free ride ya sit on the bench) hiring from the hall, (they don't care where you get the operator/laborer from just as long as they sign up and pay dues.) and crossing job lines.(operators will help labor on occasion and visa versa.) More incentive.

Some, like the electricians union i work with, are dogma laced. So much so that i don't call a member by name, not brother or sister, but by "Comrade."

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:41 pm 
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So, you think the company has the right to regulated employee's behavior away from work. Got it.

And yes, it's a blacklist, same as "are you now, or have you ever been a member of a union?" Gee, you just won't ever be offered employment. They just don't have to hire you!

Well, they spent years just not having to wire blacks, or gays, or women, or any other minority they deem unfit. Why not smokers?

In the interest of safety? No.

That shows a mindset of a company that doesn't surprise me - the feeling that they own the employees, and have the right to regulate their non-work behavior is simply the slavemaster mentality. Yeah, they wouldn't like me. I believe in treating people with dignity and respect.

And your support of this shows that conservatives don't believe in individual freedom.

You don't like smoking, fine. You have every right to tell someone they can't smoke on your property. Do you have the right to tell your friend across town THEY can't smoke in THEIR own home?

BTW, I'm not nor have I ever been a smoker. I'm personally glad that most places are non-smoking. But, unlike you, I DO believe in individual freedom, the right of people to live as they please in their private home, and I'm against the right of a company to dictate such things.

glen mentioned - I think it was this thread - that, in order to get the 5-dollar day, which was over double the current pay rates at the time, Ford Motor Company would demand you live your life as Ford saw fit:

The $5 a day rate wasn’t just free money, that every worker got. Instead, you had to work at the company for at least six months, and you also had to buy in to a new set of rules. The extra pay came at a price.

As Richard Snow writes in his book I Invented the Modern Age: The Rise of Henry Ford, a few basic stipulations were laid from day one:

To qualify for his doubled salary, the worker had to be thrifty and continent. He had to keep his home neat and his children healthy, and, if he were below the age of twenty-two, to be married.

That was just the start. Henry Ford wanted his workers to be model Americans, and to ensure that, he created a division within the Ford Motor Company to keep everyone in line. It was known as the Ford Sociological Department (or the Sociology Department, or the Society Department, really, depending on who you ask. But you get the idea.).

What started out as a team of 50 “Investigators” eventually morphed into a team of 200 people who probed every aspect of their employees lives. And I mean every aspect.

Investigators would show up unannounced at your home, just to make sure it was being kept clean. They’d ask questions that were less appropriate of a car company, than they were for the modern-day CIA. They’d query you about your spending habits, your alcohol consumption, even your marital relationships. They’d ask what you were buying, and they’d check on your children to make sure they were in school.

Women weren’t eligible, unless they were single and had to support children. Men weren’t eligible unless the only work their wives did was in the home.

They were Henry Ford’s personal morality enforcers, making sure that everyone who took one of his paychecks lived up to his standards.


Now, I'm sure that, because you believe in the rights of the company, and NOT the rights of the workers, you would see no problem with this. But I do.


Ford's muscle man was a guy named Bennett there is a very good documentary on Netflix that shows just how ruthless Bennett was.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:56 pm 
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Paternal companies are very big in Asia, where the individual is considered less important than the people as a whole, and we've seen the results. They're not pretty.


The thing about Asian paternalism is the boss views you like family. That also means they will almost never fire you, show loyalty to you (as long as you are diligent and show up, of course), and even promise to take care of you and your family members. These are hallmarks of a still somewhat traditional society - you'll see this in Japan.

Now yeah that problem you're alluding to - wow, the suicide rate in Japan is just crazy. Partly because of their inability to separate work and home/private life. The stress.

Here in the U.S., we basically have the employee as disposable asset view. This is an at-will country. The boss owes you nothing, not even an explanation or reason for why you're being fired. Long-term benefits, pensions? Wow, people seem to view those as evil, these days. You're not family. You're just ink on a balance sheet.

But a boss who treats you as a disposable asset, and then deigns to rule over your private life outside the workplace after you punch out at 5? Wants to tell you what to eat, smoke, do on your own time, mostly to save himself money? (Let's get real.) Man, that is the worst of two worlds. It's just two different ways of treating you like shit.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:07 am 
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Some unions are better than others. The 49ers and labors unions here have dropped a lot of the dogma. They've laxed off seniority,(if your in it for a free ride ya sit on the bench) hiring from the hall, (they don't care where you get the operator/laborer from just as long as they sign up and pay dues.) and crossing job lines.(operators will help labor on occasion and visa versa.) More incentive.

Some, like the electricians union i work with, are dogma laced. So much so that i don't call a member by name, not brother or sister, but by "Comrade."


Now that is confusing Bradman, around here, my "here," not your "here," the 49ers are a local gladiator team, and when you talked about "a free ride ya sit on the bench." it got even more confusing.

My UA local is probably a bit like your electricians union but calling them "brother" still works for me, and they like it. We had a sister for a while but she quit before she completed the apprenticeship program.

The longshoremen locals around here have a bunch of sisters but they insist on being called brothers.

:|


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:01 am 
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Now that is confusing Bradman, around here, my "here," not your "here," the 49ers are a local gladiator team, and when you talked about "a free ride ya sit on the bench." it got even more confusing.

My UA local is probably a bit like your electricians union but calling them "brother" still works for me, and they like it. We had a sister for a while but she quit before she completed the apprenticeship program.

The longshoremen locals around here have a bunch of sisters but they insist on being called brothers.

:|

{chuckle} Ya wouldn't be the first to express confusion by my posts, Sam. As i may have mentioned in the past, i'm a three finger wonder. My thoughts can't keep up with my fingers and by the time my fingers start to catch up to my thoughts half of the thoughts are gone. i'm much better at expressing those thoughts face to face. Honest, i can, at times, sound very coherent if i'm not trying to type it. ;)

Having been in, and worked with, the unions for 30 years or better (Painters while in high school (work program), Ford plant out of high school, a stint with the carpet layers, laborers, Teamster for a year before finally finding my home with the 49er's. 25 of the first years as a 49erworking foreman in the utility field.

Free ride? Don't know if you've met them before but i have. They are the members that want the union pay and benefits but don't want to 'perform' for it. A free ride. You couldn't get rid of them in the past. Now, when work slows you lay them off and don't call them back when it gets busy. The 9er reps turn a blind eye(even if the member has seniority) and lets the member ride the bench. (union hall bench. An expression here for those out of work union members that are waiting to be placed by the union.)Sorry, i don't have much sympathy for them.(we only call the bench when we need a warm body during the busiest time of the year.) Most of them deserve to ride the bench as most all good 9ers have secured a job without the need to be placed.

Electric union: They are old school. Steeped in dogma they are. Chaotic rules they have. You must go thru the hall to hire. When they have numerous members riding the bench they fall back on a point system. So many points for so many hours and once reached you go back to the bench and the next in line gets the job.(when work is slow) It makes it damn near impossible to get good people and when you do get a good one they disappear back into the system at the first work slow down.(one of many problems they have.) And dogma? Wow. Listen to their union reps, see one of their meetings, and ya'd think that Lenin was still alive and pulling the strings. i like to give them shit about it. It's why i use the word "Commie" instead of brother or sister. They are fighting a new battle with old tactics and it hurts them. Especially the good workers. Incentive be damned.

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Last edited by bradman on Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:12 am 
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Good for you, but it's obvious you really don't understand what unionism is about.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:32 pm 
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Ruth Bader Ginsberg is live on CNN right now - and is talking about the Hobby Lobby case. Yes, the leaders of the company have deeply held religious beliefs - but as a for-profit company, they have no right forcing their religion on their employees.


and she is 100% correct.

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"within weeks of being rid of the likes of you, rid of every fucking one of you,we would begin to see what kind of country this ought to be" Ike Bana 6/14/18


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:34 pm 
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and she is 100% correct.

The Republican Party and the people you vote for disagree with you.


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