RadioFreeLiberal.com

Smart Voices, Be Heard
It is currently Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:57 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:15 am 
Online
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 9551
Location: Sunny South Florida
High school science fair project questioning African American intelligence sparks outrage
http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article199440204.html

Students, parents and staff at C.K. McClatchy High School are upset over a science fair project by a student in its elite magnet program that questioned whether certain races of people lack the intelligence to handle the program’s academically challenging coursework.

Some of those outraged by the racially charged project say it points to a larger problem: the lack of ethnic diversity in the school’s elite HISP program.

The project that started the controversy was titled “Race and IQ.” It raised the hypothesis: “If the average IQs of blacks, Southeast Asians, and Hispanics are lower than the average IQs of non-Hispanic whites and Northeast Asians, then the racial disproportionality in (HISP) is justified.”

[snip]

The controversial project also included a bibliography and quotes from five books, one a text from 1904 called “The Essential Kafir” that argued South African blacks were intellectually inferior to whites. The term “kaffir” has since evolved into a racial slur in South Africa, where it is sometimes referred to as the “k-word.”

“I think that a lot of people, especially of color, are really hurt and upset by this,” said Chrysanthe Vidal, a senior in the HISP program.

She said the student who prepared the report has a history of making racist remarks in class. He is described by peers as a boy of Asian descent and a participant in the accelerated Humanities and International Studies program, or HISP. The Sacramento Bee did not speak to the student and is not identifying the minor.

[snip]

The idea of race being tied to intelligence has a long and controversial history and is considered fringe. It is associated with other ideas including eugenics – often euphemistically referred to as “human biodiversity” in recent years – that attempt to tie racial superiority to science.

In the United States, the notion of a racial tie to intelligence gained notoriety with “The Bell Curve.” The 1994 book by political scientist Charles Murray brought the idea into the national consciousness, though it has been widely criticized by mainstream scientists.

Many notions involving ethnicity and ability are popular with the so-called alternative right movement, and have gained increased prominence recently as topics of race and immigration have dominated national rhetoric. In 2013, the then-director of the Heritage Foundation – a leading conservative voice for immigration reform – resigned over his Harvard Ph.D. dissertation, which argued among other things that American born “Hispanics” are less intelligent than American-born white people, also using IQ scores as a marker.

Recently, some academics argued that President Donald Trump was alluding to race and intelligence when he questioned why American immigration policy should allow people from certain African, Caribbean and Central American countries to come to the United States instead of people from countries like Norway.

The McClatchy student tested his race and intelligence hypothesis by having a handful of unidentified teens of various races take an online intelligence test.

His report concluded that, “the lower average IQs of blacks, Southeast Asians, and nonwhite Hispanics means that they are not as likely as non-Hispanic whites and Northeast Asians to be accepted into a more academically rigorous program such as HISP. Therefore, the racial disproportionality of HISP is justified.”

[snip][end]

Huh. Let's see. I can already see two problems off the bat.

1) On what basis could this Asian student (his ethnicity is not described, but one assumes he is North Asian) claim Southeast Asians are a different "race" from others? Likewise, on what scientific basis could he claim "Hispanics" are a "race" (they aren't)?
2) Very little is said about the study methodology but it sounds very craptastic to me. Many so-called "online intelligence tests" are nonsense. Also, very little is said about the sampling of the research subjects, but sounds like little care was done in doing so.
now, also:
3) Seems like the classic case of a project designed to justify the status quo. The HISP group is not racially diverse. Guy in said scholastic group decides to "prove" that's the way it "should" be "naturally". This kind of pseudo-scientific legitimation of the status quo has a long history.

He didn't even seem to think it was worth considering or dealing with differential socio-economic characteristics of groups.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:24 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:01 pm
Posts: 14163
Thr First Amendment is a sword with two edges.

Seems to me free speech will work best in a species where natural selection has had sufficient time to weed out the scum.

_________________
Image
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:32 am 
Online
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 9551
Location: Sunny South Florida
Oh, this student has the right to claim whatever he wants to. I'm not suggesting he be silenced. Far from it.

Every science fair I've been involved in usually evaluates the science projects for display and removes the one that are poor in quality. You have a right to say whatever you want to. What you exhibit at a science fair should be based on actual, sound science. If I do a project on chemtrails causing NFL teams to lose a Super Bowl, well, that silly project should be rejected. Because it's nonsense.

I'm alluding to that 2nd point.

The Bell Curve had every right to be published. I personally saw a session where many of the claims in the book were mercilessly dissected and torn apart for their fallacious reasoning. That's the way it should be done. But, even though this kid was a HS student and not an adult, I think his project was far less worth considering than what's in the Bell Curve, which is mostly just a lot of sloppy research. It's a very poorly done HS science project, whatever the kid thinks of his own abilities.

A bibliography whose key source seems to be a book from 1904 South Africa? I mean, holy crap, let's start there. A massive craptasm.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:53 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:10 pm
Posts: 15757
Location: The blue parts of the map
I preferred science fair projects that involved hardware. The best ones also had something resembling real research in them. There was a kid who grew some sort of microbe in different environments. He won. It was still hard to beat the Tesla coils for sheer fun.

_________________
True patriots are appalled.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:47 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 15296
OK I hope this isn't considered off topic but, here is my science fair story.

I friend of the family had a son who was a great student and did a science fair project that was sent to the district finals. About a dozen years later his little brother whom was a poor student redid that exact same project and received a C. Teaching sometimes is very subjective when it comes to grades. The goody two shoes gets an A while the wise ass gets a C for the exact same work.

Making math the best subject as it is either right or it is wrong.

My oldest daughter [ the PhD] grew bacteria from different surfaces. Door knobs, toilet seats, counter tops etc. Turns out door knobs had the most and worst bacteria. She also received her typical A.

When my other two were at that age 11 and 13 years later the Science fair was no longer mandatory and they did no project. Had they chose to do one I would have urged them to grow bacteria.

_________________
"Melania, another whore with no integrity in the WH"-Ike Bana 1/31/18


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:55 pm 
Online
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 33880
Sadly, science is one thing the right is against. They hate it. They are far more interested in fantasy.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:55 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm
Posts: 7190
Bring in the Jesus fair.

_________________
“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness”. — John Kenneth Galbraith


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:08 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:07 am
Posts: 15748
so basically theyre relating race and IQ to how much money you have.
..or how pale you think you are.

https://phys.org/news/2017-05-scientist ... s.html#jCp
Scientists find 7.2-million-year-old pre-human remains in the Balkans
May 22, 2017, University of Toronto


https://news.nationalgeographic.com/new ... very-gene/
January 26, 2014
Some ancient peoples in Spain 7,000 years ago had blue eyes and dark skin.
Blue-Eyed Hunter-Gatherers Roamed Prehistoric Europe, Gene Map Reveals
....—a 7,000-year-old Spaniard whose fossil genes reveal that early Europeans sported blue eyes and dark skin.

_________________
Who are these...flag-sucking halfwits fleeced fooled by stupid little rich kids They speak for all that is cruel stupid
They are racists hate mongers I piss down the throats of these Nazis Im too old to worry whether they like it Fuck them.
HST.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:17 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 15296
I would like to take this back to the lack of diversity in the HISP program.

If they have standard testing designed at identifying those students most qualified and who have the best chance at succeeding within that program. Wouldn't putting students who qualified lower into that same program almost be a guarantee that those with those lower scores be predestined to fail?

The race of the student would have nothing to do with whether or not they succeeded or failed. Also, wouldn't it be a disservice to those with the lower testing scores to put them into such a situation.

_________________
"Melania, another whore with no integrity in the WH"-Ike Bana 1/31/18


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:24 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:07 am
Posts: 9047
I would like to take this back to the lack of diversity in the HISP program.

If they have standard testing designed at identifying those students most qualified and who have the best chance at succeeding within that program. Wouldn't putting students who qualified lower into that same program almost be a guarantee that those with those lower scores be predestined to fail?

The race of the student would have nothing to do with whether or not they succeeded or failed. Also, wouldn't it be a disservice to those with the lower testing scores to put them into such a situation.


You're not seeing the forest for the trees Glen. Instead of focusing on how the testing is placing the kids and how they might do if lack of diversity were to be corrected by accepting those with lower scores into the program.

Focus instead on why these test scores are showing a seeming racial bias such that it is creating this lack of diversity in that honors program.

I bet if one tracked it down it would be in correlation with economic disparity grouped by race of the parents of those kids who are not testing as well as the others in the same school.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:40 pm 
Online
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 9551
Location: Sunny South Florida
That depends on whether their under-representation in the program is due to lack of inherent ability, or a lack of support, proper academic environment, advising, instruction, other social environment, etc.

If you think it's the former, glen, you seem to be siding with the kid who did this 'science project'.

If you agree with me it's the latter, and they could have the ability to rise to the challenge, NO, it's NOT a bad idea to increase the program's diversity.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:48 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:27 pm
Posts: 7200
Location: miles from nowhere
I go back to Mrs. Bird’s experiences teaching in first ring suburban Chicago schools. Ike knows the areas. Thornridge High School in Dolton, Rich South in Richton Park and now the same Catholic high school she graduated from in Slavic Village in Cleveland which was ground zero for collapsing property values during the Great Recession. Primarily African-American kids (over 90% in all three schools) and what these kids struggle with is astounding. Nonsense about so-called standardized tests is precisely that. What the right doesn’t understand is there is absolute poverty and relative poverty. Here in this country we have both and it is both a disgrace and a direct result of a political economy based upon a backward looking economic theology. As long as that theology is left in the control of wealth/capital and their political lackeys disparity and poverty of both kinds will go on.

And the kids will suffer despite the best efforts of the majority of teachers.

_________________
bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:15 am 
Online
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 33880
That depends on whether their under-representation in the program is due to lack of inherent ability, or a lack of support, proper academic environment, advising, instruction, other social environment, etc.

If you think it's the former, glen, you seem to be siding with the kid who did this 'science project'.

If you agree with me it's the latter, and they could have the ability to rise to the challenge, NO, it's NOT a bad idea to increase the program's diversity.

Yep. Glen keeps arguing that the kid in the science project is RIGHT, and that there should be no affirmative action.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:02 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:24 pm
Posts: 14280
Yep. Glen keeps arguing that the kid in the science project is RIGHT, and that there should be no affirmative action.


Folks like glen and thie eugenics-lite Asian kid are dependent on bunk science from 100 years ago to reassure themselves of their inherent superiority.

Neither of them have any clue how to coexist with us Black kids who go through those programs. Lol when I was in it, it was called "MGM" for Mentally-gifted Minors. Doofus kids like this one, with something to prove about his own intelligence, earned us all the label of "mother's greatest mistake" lolol.

The one thing you learn is: there are a heck of a whole lot of dumb whites and their occasional admirers in those programs.

_________________


Please try to remember that what they believe, as well as what they do and
cause you to endure does not testify to your inferiority but to their inhumanity

~ James Baldwin, The Fire Next Time



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:23 am 
Online
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 9551
Location: Sunny South Florida
So, there is another aspect to this story I find interesting. We're not told the ethnicity of the kid who did the project. My guess is Chinese American. (He wasn't white.)

Now, we do have this stereotype in this country called the model minority myth. Namely, that somehow, "all Asians do well in school".

The interesting thing is, he's noticed something sociologists have, but drawn a different conclusion. Namely, that Southeast Asians, and in particular the Hmong (they are in the Eastwood film Gran Torino), often do worse in school than other Asians, particularly Chinese Americans who have been here 3 generations. I often point this out when some people think the advantage of Asians in our school system lies in "genetics".

What I find fascinating is he goes for the eugenics answer - that this must mean SE Asians are genetically different from other Asians - without looking at the other obvious variable -- differences in culture, and also I would argue level of assimilation (that's where the newcomer vs. third generation thing plays in). And finally, of course, as with Blacks or Hispanics, socioeconomic status.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:45 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 15296
Yep. Glen keeps arguing that the kid in the science project is RIGHT, and that there should be no affirmative action.



Not at all, what I am doing is agreeing with the latter of the good Profs two scenarios. While also stating the obvious. Which is if you take a child who has not had the educational foundation and place them into an advanced program that child is destined to fail.

Maybe what we need is some sort of bridge program. One that would recognize those gifted children or those children who do have the ability to learn on a more advance level but have not had the educational foundation it takes to be able to succeed of keep up with those who have. Then place them into some sort of advanced program that is somewhere between the top and the average.

Because at the end of the day leaving those children with the average to below average children is just as much a disservice to them as it would be to place them into an advanced program where they don't have the foundation it takes to succeed.

_________________
"Melania, another whore with no integrity in the WH"-Ike Bana 1/31/18


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:47 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 15296

Folks like glen and thie eugenics-lite Asian kid are dependent on bunk science from 100 years ago to reassure themselves of their inherent superiority.

Neither of them have any clue how to coexist with us Black kids who go through those programs. Lol when I was in it, it was called "MGM" for Mentally-gifted Minors. Doofus kids like this one, with something to prove about his own intelligence, earned us all the label of "mother's greatest mistake" lolol.

The one thing you learn is: there are a heck of a whole lot of dumb whites and their occasional admirers in those programs.


Everything with you always comes back to your bigotry and hatred of whites.

_________________
"Melania, another whore with no integrity in the WH"-Ike Bana 1/31/18


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:28 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:24 pm
Posts: 14280

Everything with you always comes back to your bigotry and hatred of whites.


I don't hate anybody, and I definitely don't care if a White Citizens Council aspirant thinks I'm a bigot.

You on the other hand are participating in a thread about some child using white-conservative eugenics from 100 years ago to link race, IQ, and African-American inferiority, and you agree with the kid.

So yes, tell us again what a victim you are because an African American criticized your anti-intellect, Birth of A Nation propagandized culture.

_________________


Please try to remember that what they believe, as well as what they do and
cause you to endure does not testify to your inferiority but to their inhumanity

~ James Baldwin, The Fire Next Time



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:50 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:24 pm
Posts: 14280
By the way, glen, you have an opportunity to educate yourself on what white cons said about us in 1904. The Essential Kaffir is available for you to read online. That's the text this wish-i-wuz based his science fair project on, the one whose conclusions you agree with.

Key quote from the chapter called "Mental Characteristics":

Quote:
Once a native has grown up in ignornace, it is very hard to knock any knowledge into his thick skull. The natives vary in this repect; but as a rule it is a very slow and tedious matter to teach a grown-up man to read or write, especially an oldish man. The old men will sometimes start learning to read, thinking it will take only an hour or so. A lady on a mission station was trying to teach an old man the elements of the New Testament, and came to the subject of angels. She spent a good half-hour trying to knock into the head of the old fellow, who was, however, very dull, some idea as to the nature of angels. The work was probably one of the supererogation.

At length, after endlessly dinning the same facts into his head, she said, "And what are angels?" The old man looked very serious, and said very slowly, with a pause between his words, "Angels -- are -- birds." And on another occasion, after listening to a long dissertation on sin, which was likened to the weeds in the garden, he was asked what sins were, and he said in the same deliberate way, "Sins -- are -- weeds -- in -- the -- garden." After all, Dante spoke of the angels as the birds of God.

With regard to such qualities as the critical or logical faculty, the natives seem hopelesly deficient.

https://archive.org/details/essentialkafir00kidd, p 282.

And yet, it's always fascinated me that actually believing this kind of propaganda against fellow human beings that you guys still don't even have the decency to be embarassed about, conservative whites somehow still consider yourselves God's Favorites and the most intelligent people on earth.

_________________


Please try to remember that what they believe, as well as what they do and
cause you to endure does not testify to your inferiority but to their inhumanity

~ James Baldwin, The Fire Next Time



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:59 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:24 pm
Posts: 14280
Because at the end of the day leaving those children with the average to below average children is just as much a disservice to them as it would be to place them into an advanced program where they don't have the foundation it takes to succeed.



Yeah that's what I came to understand, being put in these advanced programs with the children of anti-intellect suburban white cons for three wasted years of elementary school. They drag down the program.

So I can vouch for what you're saying.

_________________


Please try to remember that what they believe, as well as what they do and
cause you to endure does not testify to your inferiority but to their inhumanity

~ James Baldwin, The Fire Next Time



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:08 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:20 pm
Posts: 5807
I go back to Mrs. Bird’s experiences teaching in first ring suburban Chicago schools. Ike knows the areas. Thornridge High School in Dolton, Rich South in Richton Park and now the same Catholic high school she graduated from in Slavic Village in Cleveland which was ground zero for collapsing property values during the Great Recession. Primarily African-American kids (over 90% in all three schools) and what these kids struggle with is astounding. Nonsense about so-called standardized tests is precisely that. What the right doesn’t understand is there is absolute poverty and relative poverty. Here in this country we have both and it is both a disgrace and a direct result of a political economy based upon a backward looking economic theology. As long as that theology is left in the control of wealth/capital and their political lackeys disparity and poverty of both kinds will go on.

And the kids will suffer despite the best efforts of the majority of teachers.


Bird,
As you know, I am often critical of public schools. Some do well and others not so much. However, I don't think now nor have I ever thought it was because of the efforts of those folks who are called to teach in public schools. I have a number of public school teachers in my family and I prepare tax returns for a few more. So my hat is off to the folks who choose that profession. The best teachers I ever had were three public school teachers I had in high school. I never had a professor in college that was a scratch on those three teachers.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:16 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:24 pm
Posts: 14280
What a lot of people here are missing is that the Black kids most likely to be put in these advanced (so-called) classes are a lot like I was, already living in suburban areas in school districts that even have these programs at all.

The other thing is that this child is speaking out of his butt 1- about the current state of public schools and allocations for anything considered extra-curricular and 2- relying on a 1904 racist book about South Africa for his ideas about "blacks".

The latter is red meat for dumb conservative American whites, who have believed this hogwash about us for many generations prior to even to 1904.

And no. 3- that kid ought to take a look at what conservative whites were saying about his relatives in 1904. Lol he would not be very happy about it.

_________________


Please try to remember that what they believe, as well as what they do and
cause you to endure does not testify to your inferiority but to their inhumanity

~ James Baldwin, The Fire Next Time



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:36 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:24 pm
Posts: 14280
I go back to Mrs. Bird’s experiences teaching in first ring suburban Chicago schools. Ike knows the areas. Thornridge High School in Dolton, Rich South in Richton Park and now the same Catholic high school she graduated from in Slavic Village in Cleveland which was ground zero for collapsing property values during the Great Recession. Primarily African-American kids (over 90% in all three schools) and what these kids struggle with is astounding. Nonsense about so-called standardized tests is precisely that. What the right doesn’t understand is there is absolute poverty and relative poverty. Here in this country we have both and it is both a disgrace and a direct result of a political economy based upon a backward looking economic theology. As long as that theology is left in the control of wealth/capital and their political lackeys disparity and poverty of both kinds will go on.

And the kids will suffer despite the best efforts of the majority of teachers.


It's not just simply economics. It's white supremacy as the law and public policy, which we've been only one generation out from.

Again, the HOLC maps and state-forced, federal-forced redlining.

These determined not just where the rest of us lived but where whites got federal loans. This isn't even bringing in the VA and veteran's benefits, itself one generation out from a desegregated military.

Mapping Inequality

It was the Fair Housing Act (1968) and Community Reinvestment Act (1977), congressional acts that made it illegal to discriminate in housing and lending based on race. Needless to say, where you live determines where your children attend school if going to public school.

Couple this in places like California with Prop 13, and the slow 20-30 year process it took to desegregate public schools, quickly overridden by Reagan-era conservative whites.

_________________


Please try to remember that what they believe, as well as what they do and
cause you to endure does not testify to your inferiority but to their inhumanity

~ James Baldwin, The Fire Next Time



Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: RoyPDX and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group