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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:24 pm 
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I think people typically post more about subjects that may directly affect them. Christianity in all of its various forms is by far the most populous religion in the US..... so it kind of makes sense that if people are bitching about religious people in the US.... the posts would mostly be about Christians.

Forgive me for making assumptions, but I would guess that I have not only met, but worked with more Muslims than..... the majority of people on this board..... that is not some bragging point.... it is just my personal experience.... kind of like..... I probably know more people in the Navy because.... I did 20 years in the Navy.....lol. Anyway.... point is.... There really no difference between fundamentalist Christianity and Islam, or even Hasidic Judaism for that matter. All 3 are Abrahamic religions. According to those 3 belief systems..... "Father Abraham.... had many sons...... many sons had Father Abraham..... I am one of them.... and so are you.... AS WE GO MARCHING ON......."

The difference is not in the fundamentalist religions...... it is in the secular state laws..... not in the religious dogma. That shit is the same.... well.... ok....a couple of differences here and there....some better than others on an issue by issue basis....

So.... if you REALLY want to get real about shit glenn..... when the pope was in charge of government in Europe.... how was that shit working out? All religions are fucked up..... let me rephrase that.... have the potential to be fucked up.....it is only the secular state laws that keep religious whackos in check. Do you doubt that women wouldn't be burned to death or drowned as witches if the secular state hadn't outlawed it as ..... MURDER?

So anyways..... now the snark.....I did several deployments to the Arabian Gulf (Oman, UAE, Bahrain, etc..), Malaysia, Indonesia....etc.... while in the Navy. Spent 4 years in Afghanistan.... October 2010 till September 2014. Met and worked with numerous Muslims, but I know a lot more Christians...... that being said.....I have a lot more Christian friends than Muslim or Jewish friends, but that has nothing to do with their belief system... it is a simple matter of..... there are more of them here. So glenn.... I would like to post an opposite post to your post.

I know literally THOUSANDS of Christians..... and my point is not to trash the belief in Christ.... believe what you believe.... Just don't try and legislate you religion on to me...... that is the problem in many Muslim countries.... they are like Christian countries a few hundred years ago.


Also, some of us are actual survivors of Evangelical and/or rightwing American Christianity, and can speak quite directly to what goes on in it.

It does tend make those folks who choose to stay in it very nervous and angry, though.

Criticism of what affects us isn't allowed; it certainly wasn't allowed when we were on the inside. It hurts the feelings of God's Favorites. And heaven knows what hell always befalls Planet Earth when conservative whites' delicate sensibilities are crossed. :? :problem:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:32 pm 
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That is what gets me. we read post after post of people trashing the shortcomings of the Christian Faith. Not to mention the constant mocking of it. But, we never see a post that is critical of the Muslim Faith. Or if we do it is very rare. I find it hypocritical of those people here who do that.

Does the Christian Faith have shortcomings, you bet it does. But, lets not ignore that on the other side of the World there are a handful of countries who stone Gays to death. Who treat women as if it were the 14th century. Whose people have no civil rights and they do so in the name of their religion.

It gets very tedious at times to read post after post trashing Christians and the Christian Faith by people who ignore and defend what is happening in the world under the name of Islam.
I'm certainly sympathetic to your concern about the 'chip on their shoulder' (your words) that some posters have when it comes to the issue of religion.

But think about it Glen. Why do you think that the bulk of their criticism is focused on Christians, as opposed to Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, or Wiccans. Its because they are American...and in American culture, Christians are the dominant group. So you'd expect them to criticize those whom they feel (rightly or wrongly) are in opposition to their position. If they were 'liberals' in India, they'd likely focus on Hindus, in Pakistan on Muslims, in Israel on observant Jews, in Thailand on Buddhists (don't know where they'd be concerned about wiccans), and in North Korea or Cuba on atheist trying to impose their belief.

I'm not sure you are correct in that you don't see criticism of Islamic fundamentalism/extremism....and I have to admit, I wonder why liberals are often so tolerant of them. But I know, intellectually anyway, that this because they don't see them as a threat...and for all their (our?) protestations otherwise, we are all largely self focused.


Last edited by Viewer on Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:45 pm 
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I'm certainly sympathetic to your concern about the 'chip on their shoulder' (your words) that some posters have when it comes to the issue of religion.

But think about it Glen. Why do you think that the bulk of their criticism is focused on Christians, as opposed to Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, or Wiccans. Its because they are American...and in American culture, Christians are the dominant group. So you'd expect them to criticize those whom they feel (rightly or wrongly) are in opposition to their position. If they were 'liberals' in India, they'd likely focus on Hindus, in Pakistan on Muslims, in Israel on observant Jews, in Thailand on Buddhists (don't know where they'd be concerned about wicks), and in North Korea or Cuba on atheist trying to impose their belief.


A lot of these folks simply believe their pet religion to be beyond critique, especially by non-believers and most especially by minorities whom they believe they were put here to rule.

The inferiors are to speak of the pet religion only in terms that show them in the best and brightest light. Otherwise, it makes them nervous and angry. And when they're not permitted to rule, they think that's unfair.

Their deity is the same way, interestingly enough.

It's a supremacist attitude common to conservative Evangelicals, many of whom often can't even describe or justify why they believe what they do, yet are certain that the rest of us MUST...or else.

Quote:
I'm not sure you are correct in that you don't see criticism of Islamic fundamentalism/extremism....and I have to admit, I wonder why liberals are often so tolerant of them. But I know, intellectually anyway, that this because they don't see them as a treat...and for all their (our?) protestations otherwise, we are all largely self focused.


Dunno, man. This sounds like envy, to me.

Do you know any liberals who are tolerant of Islamic fundamentalism/extremism?

Many of us liberals know, work with, and are friends with actual Muslims, which is not the same as being tolerant of Islamic fundamentalism/extremism. I'm very distrustful of this effort to divert any critique of conservative Christianity to "but Muslims."

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:24 pm 
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Many of us liberals know, work with, and are friends with actual Muslims, which is not the same as being tolerant of Islamic fundamentalism/extremism. I'm very distrustful of this effort to divert any critique of conservative Christianity to "but Muslims."
Yes many of us are friends and neighbors with Muslims, Hindus and others who we work, live and socialize with....(in fact I know some conservatives who also get along with people of other groups, along with people who are not WASP's who are conservative.)

And I agree with you regarding any attempt to divert criticism. That's my point.

Do you know any liberals who are tolerant of Islamic fundamentalism/extremism?"
Unfortunately, yes. I do know self described (and some 'professional' in that they get paid) 'human rights' activists who have gone to Iran without a word of criticism toward the fundamentalists there either before going, more especially while there, or when they returned. I personally know some of them who stand silent, even provide support to Hamas, Hizb and other such groups. (And you can guess my perspective on Sasour.)

No, if I ask specifically, they wont say they support oppression...but they act in a way that is supportive. Not much different than the conservatives who say they don't hate LBGTQ but act differently.

Still Carmen, the main point of my post was what would Glen expect? People here deal with the 'threats' they (believe they) see in their own backyard. And in fact isn't that what conservatives are all about? Acting in ones own interest? Perhaps that's why there are bigoted attitudes against Eskimos in Alaska, but where I am, I don't even know (and I doubt many other people in my area would either) what I'm supposed to be prejudice against.

By the way Carmen, you are a great example of someone I am not describing. You are fair and criticize bigotry wherever you see it.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Yes many of us are friends and neighbors with Muslims, Hindus and others who we work, live and socialize with....(in fact I know some conservatives who also get along with people of other groups, along with people who are not WASP's who are conservative.)

And I agree with you regarding any attempt to divert criticism. That's my point.

Unfortunately, yes. I do know self described (and some 'professional' in that they get paid) 'human rights' activists who have gone to Iran without a word of criticism toward the fundamentalists there either before going, more especially while there, or when they returned. I personally know some of them who stand silent, even provide support to Hamas, Hizb and other such groups. (And you can guess my perspective on Sasour.)


Mmph. Well, I can take or leave her. Not a fan. The freakouts about her, though, sometimes work my nerves (I know you're not freaking out - talking about those who do, just at the sight of homegirl. :problem:)

As for others described above, I definitely read about people like Corbyn, and what Judith Butler said about Hamas/Hezb in 2006. ProfX and I used to talk about this, how I watched the floodgates open to BDS after JB jumped off that particular cliff. But I can't say I know anyone who actively makes excuses for Islamic fundamentalist whackjobbery in real life. Maybe it's the circles I've been running in the past few years, which do from time to time include gay Muslim colleagues. It kind of reminds me of something similar in knowing liberal Cuban Americans who are very quick to Image, and with good reason, at the far left's starry-eyed views of Cuba.

Also, I am not denying that this phenomenon exists, not at all. I just hope I haven't insulated myself from it in recent years. :?

Oh and the Ferguson to Palestine people can go jump. Or at the very least think twice at what would happen to a kid in Ferguson throwing rocks at cops. (Actually, we already know exactly what happens, and there is footage. :problem: :problem: :problem: :problem: :problem: :problem: :problem: :problem: )

Quote:
No, if I ask specifically, they wont say they support oppression...but they act in a way that is supportive. Not much different than the conservatives who say they don't hate LBGTQ but act differently.

Still Carmen, the main point of my post was what would Glen expect? People here deal with the 'threats' they (believe they) see in their own backyard. And in fact isn't that what conservatives are all about? Acting in ones own interest? Perhaps that's why there are bigoted attitudes against Eskimos in Alaska, but where I am, I don't even know (and I doubt many other people in my area would either) what I'm supposed to be prejudice against.

By the way Carmen, you are a great example of someone I am not describing. You are fair and criticize bigotry wherever you see it.


Well thanks! You're my role model, man. Thing is, we can't afford not to!

Re: threats and those perceived, you know, I used to be a rightwing conservative Christian myself, so I know exactly what they're after politically, and have watched them actually pull it off over the past 30 years.

Glen gets hot under the collar when they're criticized by all us hellbound sinners and "mocked" :problem:, but not taking them seriously has lead in part to the White House becoming the dumpster fire it is now, with donald trump being led by the nose by people like Robertson, Jeffress, Paula White; telling Alex Jones he's got a great reputation...the absolute dregs of the whackodoodle right.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:21 pm 
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(And you can guess my perspective on Sasour.)


My biggest puzzle over Linda Sarsour is she claims to be a feminist, but rather ruthlessly attacks ex-Muslim feminists like Irshad Manji and Ayaan Hirsi Ali for being Islamophobes. I agree Ali may not be totally politically correct for U.S. lefties, but I've read her books, and she's a liberal at least definitely in the classical sense of the term, for the Enlightenment.

They are not "phobic" that I can see. They know the religion, they come out of it. But they ARE critical of how Islam views/treats women (see my earlier distinction between group prejudice and criticism of doctrine), and they have left the faith. That seems to bother Ms. Sarsour. I think it's her biggest hypocrisy.

I also agree with you people on the Left like Judith Butler are being kind of silly when they claim Hamas and Hezbollah are "progressive" groups. Well, maybe they are fighting Israeli oppression. I'm not sure raining rockets with shrapnel on random civilians or blowing up teenagers in Sbarro pizzerias is the best way to do that, but we digress. But there's nothing "progressive" about how Hamas quotes the Protocols in their charter. It's STILL there. Nor how it uses religious police in Gaza and persecutes gay people. I don't get turning a blind eye to that, never have. It is NOT "pink washing" to note - factually - that many gay Palestinians move to Israel (proper) because they are safer there than in Gaza or the West Bank.

Yes, Carmen and I have often had that discussion, mostly privately ... except when the subject comes up, publicly.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:50 pm 
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I'd go beyond that. She's a straight out bigot...not to mention her hypocritical, and insulting, cover up of abuse (minimally allegations) against women where she worked and was supposed to be supervising.

But we don't have to talk about that here. It will just move things in another direction. I didn't even bring it up in the thread dealing with these issues.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:08 pm 
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...
As for others described above, I definitely read about people like Corbyn, and what Judith Butler said about Hamas/Hezb in 2006. ProfX and I used to talk about this, how I watched the floodgates open to BDS after JB jumped off that particular cliff. But I can't say I know anyone who actively makes excuses for Islamic fundamentalist whackjobbery in real life. Maybe it's the circles I've been running in the past few years, which do from time to time include gay Muslim colleagues. It kind of reminds me of something similar in knowing liberal Cuban Americans who are very quick to Image, and with good reason, at the far left's starry-eyed views of Cuba.

Also, I am not denying that this phenomenon exists, not at all. I just hope I haven't insulated myself from it in recent years. :?

Oh and the Ferguson to Palestine people can go jump. Or at the very least think twice at what would happen to a kid in Ferguson throwing rocks at cops. (Actually, we already know exactly what happens, and there is footage. :problem: :problem: :problem: :problem: :problem: :problem: :problem: :problem: )


...
I also agree with you people on the Left like Judith Butler are being kind of silly when they claim Hamas and Hezbollah are "progressive" groups. Well, maybe they are fighting Israeli oppression. I'm not sure raining rockets with shrapnel on random civilians or blowing up teenagers in Sbarro pizzerias is the best way to do that, but we digress. But there's nothing "progressive" about how Hamas quotes the Protocols in their charter. It's STILL there. Nor how it uses religious police in Gaza and persecutes gay people. I don't get turning a blind eye to that, never have. It is NOT "pink washing" to note - factually - that many gay Palestinians move to Israel (proper) because they are safer there than in Gaza or the West Bank.

Yes, Carmen and I have often had that discussion, mostly privately ... except when the subject comes up, publicly.


Image


ps...I didn't mean to 'hijack this thread or even move it in another direction. I only intended to explain to Glen why American liberals might focus more on Christians than other groups.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:46 pm 
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Feel free to wordsmith as it suits you, but I took MC's "dominate" to mean state or state-sponsored religion, which is indeed unconstitutional. You're definitely right that this is an overwhelimingly and often obnoxiously majority-Christian-Protestant country.

The reason we don't have state-sponsored Christianity or any other religion is because Christians tried it the minute they got here, and started chopping each other's heads off like they did for hundreds of years in the old country.

The various differences might appear surface or trivial to you or others, but in 1600s colonial era, it could mean the difference between life, death, property ownership, holding office, etc. Oh yeah, and whether you were subject to having your soul saved through missionization and forced conversion. For those of us out of literal "minority" Christian traditions such as African-American or Native-American Protestantism, these differences really aren't minor, and they play out in significant contemporary ways like the Alabama/Roy Moore vote.

Christians of European descents' historic inability to treat even each other well, let alone non-Christians, will always go before them in this country.

yea thats what I meant

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:58 pm 
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carmenjonze wrote:
Oh and the Ferguson to Palestine people can go jump. Or at the very least think twice at what would happen to a kid in Ferguson throwing rocks at cops. (Actually, we already know exactly what happens, and there is footage. )


there's more to it than just that

Quote:
...........Ahed’s cousin, Mustafa Tamimi, had already been killed, shot in the face with a tear-gas canister fired out of the back of an Israeli army jeep. Her mother’s brother, Rushdie Tamimi, would not be killed for another few months. In November of 2012, he was shot in the back by an Israeli soldier just down the hill from her house. There was nothing unusual about any of it really, only that the tiny village didn’t stop. They kept racking up losses, and kept marching, every Friday, to the spring. They almost never got close. Most Fridays, before they reached the bend in the road, soldiers stopped them with tear gas and sundry other projectiles. The army came during the week too, usually before dawn, making arrests, searching houses, spreading fear, delivering a message that got clearer each time: your lives, your homes, your land, even your own and your children’s bodies—none of it belongs to you...........


https://www.thenation.com/article/ahed-tamimi-has-become-the-symbol-of-a-new-generation-of-palestinian-resistance/

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:28 pm 
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Right. And as f'ed up as the situation in Gaza is, for the Ferguson to Palestine types let a Tamimi come here as a Black kid her age, and try her hand at slapping and kicking an American cop; see what happens to her.

I sometimes get the sense this is is far too abstract for people to get, but it's actually pretty easy.

I really do not recommend the course of action Ms. Tamimi took in Gaza for Black kids in Ferguson. Crossing against the light ended in death. This other thing is a suicide attempt.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:36 pm 
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Yeah, well, I don't think the family helps their cause with this stuff.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/the-rea ... -1.5630465

In October 2015, Bassem Tamimi faced a backlash when he shared a Facebook post promoting "a viral anti-Semitic meme alleging Israelis detain Palestinian children to steal their organs, and that Zionists control the media to suppress this information."

[snip]

The frightening depth of Nariman Tamimis hatred is reflected in a Facebook post she shared from a Tamimi family member in June 2016.

That post honored the teenage Palestinian terrorist who had just killed 13-year-old Hallel Yaffa Ariel in her sleep, after breaking into her home. As far as the Tamimis are concerned, the murder of the Jewish teen by a Palestinian just a few years older than her helped "to return to the homeland its awe/reverence."

"manal ✌ tamimi
@screamingtamimi
Vampire zionist celebrating their Kebore day by drinking Palestinian bloods, yes our blood is pure & delicious but it will kill u at the end."


While Nariman Tamimi usually posts in Arabic on Facebook, Manal Tamimi has represented the Tamimis on social media in English for several years. Her output on Twitter, particularly, reflects intense Jew-hatred and unwavering support for terrorism.

For Manal Tamimi, Yom Kippur is the day when "Vampire zionist" [sic] are "celebrating by drinking Palestinian bloods" – a practice that she hopes will eventually prove deadly. When an Arab-Israeli gunman killed two and wounded seven at a pub in Tel Aviv on January 1, 2016, Manal Tamimi was jubilant: "#TelAviv under fire – There are no safe place these zionist can hide in", she wrote in a tweet adorned with victory emojis.

[snip]

What Ehrenreich describes so tactfully as "one of the first military actions after Oslo" refers to the 1993 murder and subsequent burning of Haim Mizrahi, in which at least two close relatives of Bassem Tamimi took part. A report in The Independent published shortly after the murder concluded it was "an attack by extremists determined to disrupt the peace process by provoking Jewish anger."

[snip]

The 'pioneering' Tamimi family member who was "the first woman to participate in a suicide attack" is Ahlam Tamimi, the mastermind and facilitator of the 2001 Sbarro pizzeria bombing in Jerusalem that killed 15 people, including seven children and a pregnant woman, and injured some 130, with one young mother left in a permanent vegetative state.

[snip][end]

Look, I've mostly held back on other threads about her. I'm all for waves. I personally want to see an end to the military Occupation of the WB, and the mistreatment of Palestinians, and I certainly accept their right of protest and civil disobedience to Israeli authorities.

Unfortunately, the family's embrace of violence and terrorism only empowers their counterparts on the Israeli side (RW hardliners) and makes the conflict more intractable. Now I guess I've broken one of the cardinal rules of the Left about not criticizing the oppressed. Oh well. I still think it's counterproductive and won't stop saying it.

Also, even Harriet Sherwood from the Guardian, who was nothing but sympathetic, noticed the girl's statements seemed coached, and recognized the family might be using the fact that she "looks" so much like an "ordinary" American/non-Arab teenager (also in the way she dresses) thus making her sympathetic to foreign audiences. IOW, yes, the family is using her.

Yes, not all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. But saying Jewish people are vampiric by nature and want to feast on Palestinian blood or organs, is.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:06 am 
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Yeah, well, I don't think the family helps their cause with this stuff.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/the-rea ... -1.5630465

In October 2015, Bassem Tamimi faced a backlash when he shared a Facebook post promoting "a viral anti-Semitic meme alleging Israelis detain Palestinian children to steal their organs, and that Zionists control the media to suppress this information."

[snip]

The frightening depth of Nariman Tamimis hatred is reflected in a Facebook post she shared from a Tamimi family member in June 2016.

That post honored the teenage Palestinian terrorist who had just killed 13-year-old Hallel Yaffa Ariel in her sleep, after breaking into her home. As far as the Tamimis are concerned, the murder of the Jewish teen by a Palestinian just a few years older than her helped "to return to the homeland its awe/reverence."

"manal ✌ tamimi
@screamingtamimi
Vampire zionist celebrating their Kebore day by drinking Palestinian bloods, yes our blood is pure & delicious but it will kill u at the end."


While Nariman Tamimi usually posts in Arabic on Facebook, Manal Tamimi has represented the Tamimis on social media in English for several years. Her output on Twitter, particularly, reflects intense Jew-hatred and unwavering support for terrorism.

For Manal Tamimi, Yom Kippur is the day when "Vampire zionist" [sic] are "celebrating by drinking Palestinian bloods" – a practice that she hopes will eventually prove deadly. When an Arab-Israeli gunman killed two and wounded seven at a pub in Tel Aviv on January 1, 2016, Manal Tamimi was jubilant: "#TelAviv under fire – There are no safe place these zionist can hide in", she wrote in a tweet adorned with victory emojis.

[snip]

What Ehrenreich describes so tactfully as "one of the first military actions after Oslo" refers to the 1993 murder and subsequent burning of Haim Mizrahi, in which at least two close relatives of Bassem Tamimi took part. A report in The Independent published shortly after the murder concluded it was "an attack by extremists determined to disrupt the peace process by provoking Jewish anger."

[snip]

The 'pioneering' Tamimi family member who was "the first woman to participate in a suicide attack" is Ahlam Tamimi, the mastermind and facilitator of the 2001 Sbarro pizzeria bombing in Jerusalem that killed 15 people, including seven children and a pregnant woman, and injured some 130, with one young mother left in a permanent vegetative state.

[snip][end]

Look, I've mostly held back on other threads about her. I'm all for waves. I personally want to see an end to the military Occupation of the WB, and the mistreatment of Palestinians, and I certainly accept their right of protest and civil disobedience to Israeli authorities.

Unfortunately, the family's embrace of violence and terrorism only empowers their counterparts on the Israeli side (RW hardliners) and makes the conflict more intractable. Now I guess I've broken one of the cardinal rules of the Left about not criticizing the oppressed. Oh well. I still think it's counterproductive and won't stop saying it.

Also, even Harriet Sherwood from the Guardian, who was nothing but sympathetic, noticed the girl's statements seemed coached, and recognized the family might be using the fact that she "looks" so much like an "ordinary" American/non-Arab teenager (also in the way she dresses) thus making her sympathetic to foreign audiences. IOW, yes, the family is using her.

Yes, not all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. But saying Jewish people are vampiric by nature and want to feast on Palestinian blood or organs, is.

so you are saying she had it coming? do you agree with the defense minister that she is a terrorist and not a little girl?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:46 am 
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No she is not a terrorist. Yes, slapping and hitting anybody, however justifiably angry you are at them, even if they are a solider or policeman, is assault & battery. So is throwing rocks, even if they are just rocks. A rock hitting you in the head can kill you - just check Davy & Goliath.

No, I don't think her trial should be closed to media and foreign journalists. Absolutely the same crap right wing governments do all over the world, and no, don't support it.

Unfortunately, even she herself has occasionally expressed support for terrorists. All I'm saying is this won't help her case.

This was her post on Facebook. Not her family members. Her own.

Image

The Arabic says: “Tell the fighters all over the world that they are my friends.”

I oppose any efforts by IDF or Israeli police to disperse Palestinian protests that are nonviolent. They can and should be allowed to protest Israeli human rights abuses. I know that still happens. It's wrong. Unfortunately, this helps give them a pretext.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:58 am 
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so you are saying she had it coming? do you agree with the defense minister that she is a terrorist and not a little girl?
(So off topic by this point, but anyway....)

You're trying to create a dichotomy that doesn't exist.

The only two options are not 1) being a terrorist....something she's not accused of nor being tried for...as as far as I can see the Defense Minister said she was "terrorist supporting", not being a terrorist or 2) being a "little girl."

She is 17. CNN reports "Israel has brought 12 charges against 17-year-old Ahed Tamimi, including aggravated assault against a soldier, incitement, obstructing a soldier in the performance of his duty, threatening a soldier and throwing stones at troops." These relate not only to the most famous incident.

Just north of you, off I-75 five teens were charged (some as young as 15) with throwing rocks at cars...sometimes killing people.

But the fact is that Ahed does, openly, encourage and support terrorism. She's not shy about that. No reason to whitewash it. But she's not being charged with that, and being sympathetic to terrorists, however distasteful, is not a crime in Israel or the West Bank/Judea-Samaria. (assisting or promoting would be, would be I'm sure.)

I'd agree, she is a victim...but I don't think we try parents for using their children in this way (as her family has been doing for at least eight or nine years), and we give the PA and Hamas a pass on it as well. What is pretty clear, is that her parents hadn't staged this so it they could broadcast an incident live on Facebook, she wouldn't be in this situation. In a bit of irony, what really brought this incident to light is that it was seen by a right wing Israeli blogger who made an issue of the fact that the soldier didn't "take the bait"/react negatively to Ahed's repeated incitement and assaults against him. (The world is full of unintended consequences, isn't it?)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:12 pm 
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No, I don't think her trial should be closed to media and foreign journalists. Absolutely the same crap right wing governments do all over the world, and no, don't support it.

Unfortunately, even she herself has occasionally expressed support for terrorists. All I'm saying is this won't help her case.

This was her post on Facebook. Not her family members. Her own.

Image

The Arabic says: “Tell the fighters all over the world that they are my friends.”

I oppose any efforts by IDF or Israeli police to disperse Palestinian protests that are nonviolent. They can and should be allowed to protest Israeli human rights abuses. I know that still happens. It's wrong. Unfortunately, this helps give them a pretext.
You know that the trial was to be open, and the courtroom was full of journalists, "diplomats" "activities" politicians and others till it turned into a circus, right? Most of the 'observers' didn't speak either Hebrew or Arabic, so they had no idea of what was going on. There are reposts in both Times of Israel and Haaretz on the media circus surrounding the trial's opening. Closing trials to the media sometimes happens for other reasons, even in the good ol USA. (Often trials of minors, not just in right wing or military courts, are closed.)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:49 pm 
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so you are saying she had it coming? do you agree with the defense minister that she is a terrorist and not a little girl?


False dilemma.

What do you think would happen to a kid in Ferguson, or anywhere else in the United States, who goes around kicking cops?

What do you think would happen to them if they threw rocks at cops?

You see what happens to a 200 lb guy who was selling loosies, or a guy who tells the cop he's legally armed, while it's demanded that he reach into his jacket to get his ID.

Michael Brown as 18 but in this culture is treated as an adult threat by the time he's 13.

They would have a hell of a lot more coming than arrest and trial with all eyes on it; they would be dead.

Ferguson to Palestine is a bucket of bull.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:41 pm 
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No she is not a terrorist. Yes, slapping and hitting anybody, however justifiably angry you are at them, even if they are a solider or policeman, is assault & battery. So is throwing rocks, even if they are just rocks. A rock hitting you in the head can kill you - just check Davy & Goliath.

No, I don't think her trial should be closed to media and foreign journalists. Absolutely the same crap right wing governments do all over the world, and no, don't support it.

Unfortunately, even she herself has occasionally expressed support for terrorists. All I'm saying is this won't help her case.

This was her post on Facebook. Not her family members. Her own.

Image

The Arabic says: “Tell the fighters all over the world that they are my friends.”

I oppose any efforts by IDF or Israeli police to disperse Palestinian protests that are nonviolent. They can and should be allowed to protest Israeli human rights abuses. I know that still happens. It's wrong. Unfortunately, this helps give them a pretext.

I dont know does this reflect the little girl or the violent crazy environment inflicted upon her living conditions, can facebook post of a child be compared to ongoing violent oppression by a government. Its hard to imagine having to live in such a way.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:56 pm 
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(So off topic by this point, but anyway....)

You're trying to create a dichotomy that doesn't exist.

The only two options are not 1) being a terrorist....something she's not accused of nor being tried for...as as far as I can see the Defense Minister said she was "terrorist supporting", not being a terrorist or 2) being a "little girl."

She is 17. CNN reports "Israel has brought 12 charges against 17-year-old Ahed Tamimi, including aggravated assault against a soldier, incitement, obstructing a soldier in the performance of his duty, threatening a soldier and throwing stones at troops." These relate not only to the most famous incident.

Just north of you, off I-75 five teens were charged (some as young as 15) with throwing rocks at cars...sometimes killing people.

But the fact is that Ahed does, openly, encourage and support terrorism. She's not shy about that. No reason to whitewash it. But she's not being charged with that, and being sympathetic to terrorists, however distasteful, is not a crime in Israel or the West Bank/Judea-Samaria. (assisting or promoting would be, would be I'm sure.)

I'd agree, she is a victim...but I don't think we try parents for using their children in this way (as her family has been doing for at least eight or nine years), and we give the PA and Hamas a pass on it as well. What is pretty clear, is that her parents hadn't staged this so it they could broadcast an incident live on Facebook, she wouldn't be in this situation. In a bit of irony, what really brought this incident to light is that it was seen by a right wing Israeli blogger who made an issue of the fact that the soldier didn't "take the bait"/react negatively to Ahed's repeated incitement and assaults against him. (The world is full of unintended consequences, isn't it?)

first let me clear up a mistake I made it was the culture minister not the defense minister that said.

Quote:
“She is not a little girl, she is a terrorist,” said the culture minister, Miri Regev, before the trial. “It’s about time they will understand that people like her have to be in jail and not be allowed to incite to racism and subversion against the state of Israel.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/13/palestinian-teenager-ahed-tamimis-trial-begins-behind-closed-doors

she is a girl, she has no miltary of her own yet a huge military is frightened of her.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:05 pm 
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False dilemma.

What do you think would happen to a kid in Ferguson, or anywhere else in the United States, who goes around kicking cops?

What do you think would happen to them if they threw rocks at cops?

You see what happens to a 200 lb guy who was selling loosies, or a guy who tells the cop he's legally armed, while it's demanded that he reach into his jacket to get his ID.

Michael Brown as 18 but in this culture is treated as an adult threat by the time he's 13.

They would have a hell of a lot more coming than arrest and trial with all eyes on it; they would be dead.

Ferguson to Palestine is a bucket of bull.


the kids would likely get a disproportionate response, if they survive probably be called out by a label like gang member, monster, terrorist or drug dealer, they would likely be further dehumanized by being prosecuted as an adult and the whole process shrouded in dishonesty.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:00 pm 
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I dont know does this reflect the little girl or the violent crazy environment inflicted upon her living conditions, can facebook post of a child be compared to ongoing violent oppression by a government. Its hard to imagine having to live in such a way.


I think military occupation is a terrible existence to live under, and I personally don't support it and wish it would end. 50 years is way too long to live that way -- I agree with you. A peace agreement would end this horrid status quo. But I don't see Jared Kushner being the one who will succeed where others have failed. And Trump doesn't seem any closer to a deal here than anywhere else. Netanyahu being indicted could move things forward, esp. if this leads to Likud losing power. We'll see.

But: to quote you, I just want to see a process here that's fair to all parties. (i.e. Israeli and Palestinian).

She's not being tried for her Facebook post. She IS being tried for kicking and slapping a soldier, and throwing rocks at them.

Also, Ahed is 17. A "little girl"? She's not 9 years old. In one year, she would be a legal adult here, and I think also in Israel. 18 is when most Israelis go into the military.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:52 am 
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So now from the mystery poster, in addition to "both parties do it" we get a momentarily "both religions do it." Which will last until in another thread he says "no only they do it, we don't do it."

:lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:55 am 
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Off topic glen, way off topic.
plus he won't acknowledge people like Brandon Teena or Mathew Shepard. it still happens here.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:00 am 
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the kids would likely get a disproportionate response, if they survive probably be called out by a label like gang member, monster, terrorist or drug dealer, they would likely be further dehumanized by being prosecuted as an adult and the whole process shrouded in dishonesty.


Yes, I agree.

But that's not what happens to these rock-throwing kids. Ms. Tamimmi is on trial, not in a box 6 feet under (yes, I know the horrid thing that happened to her cousin.) I'm not saying this out of envy, I am glad the IDF did not treat her the way our cops likely would.

It might seem like a facile thing I'm saying, but this is why "Ferguson to Palestine" is a very poor analogy and slogan: it doesn't hold up. White and white-looking young people often don't fare all that much better. So it's a bad comparison.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:28 pm 
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Yes, let's hear for the poor, tred upon, discriminated against White Neo-Fascist So-Called "Christian", you know the same people that supported Pedophile in Alabama and voted for the 5-Deferment Draft Dodging Cadet Bonespur, the same man who paid hush money Adult Film Actress for an affair he had while Melania was pregnant with his youngest son and fucked a Playboy Model.

Let's hear for their non-exitent so-called "Christian" Values.

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