RadioFreeLiberal.com

Smart Voices, Be Heard
It is currently Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:47 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:18 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:01 pm
Posts: 16269
...over $6 trillion. And that's according to Donald Trump.

So Iraq says it needs $88 billion dollars in aid to help it rebuild what is left of the country.

Of course, Donald's entire administrative "plan" is "where's mine?" How much money can he personally rake in using the office that the asshole electorate of this country handed to him on a silver platter. So Trump's response is to hang whatever is left of the people of Iraq out to dry and twist in the wind.

Rex says, "fuck off."

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:46 pm 
Online
Policy Wonk

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:34 pm
Posts: 4617
Hey, remember when the Iraq War was going to pay for itself?

_________________
Glenfs posted about the Left's War On Women. Glenfs posted this after the Cosby Verdict "Gloria Allred is a media hound and an asshole. The most dangerous place to be is inbetween her and a microphone or camera". 04/27/2018.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:47 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:10 pm
Posts: 17526
Location: The blue parts of the map
I try to forget.

Whadda load of BS dumped on us by the bush family.

_________________
We used to hang our traitors. Now we elect them to lead us.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:13 pm 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:31 pm
Posts: 3838
Got cynicism?

Bill Clinton said that he doubt the war would last a week. His support shocked my ears. He stayed away from wars while in office.

Butter is expensive. We only got money for guns.

_________________
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_8wdvTjq8


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:24 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:06 pm
Posts: 12963
Got cynicism?

Bill Clinton said that he doubt the war would last a week. His support shocked my ears. He stayed away from wars while in office.

Butter is expensive. We only got money for guns.

Clinton got involved with the Balkan Wars while in office. He sent troops into the Balkan Peninsula as well as conducted a bombing campaign. While we had a large number of troops in the Balkans we lost very few to hostile actions because, unlike Bush 43, he did it smartly.

_________________
When you vote Left you vote right.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:13 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 11712
Location: Sunny South Florida
Clinton also sent troops into Haiti, to restore Father Aristide to power. That intervention had Jimmy Carter's support.

[from Wiki]
In 1994, Clinton publicly demanded that the Haitian government step aside and restore democratic rule, despite the fact that before the coup, Washington had repeatedly been undermining it. Congress was united in opposition to American intervention.[1] With United Nations backing however, Clinton deployed a large U.S. military force to the country in September 1994. Just before U.S. troops reached Haiti, Clinton sent a delegation led by former President Jimmy Carter to urge Cédras to step down and leave the country. Cédras agreed and surrendered the government to Aristide. Cédras and his top lieutenants left the country in October, and just days later, U.S. troops escorted Aristide into the capital as part of Operation Uphold Democracy. The democratic government of Aristride was restored, but only on the condition that it adopt the economic programme of the defeated U.S.-backed candidate in the 1990 elections.

Yeah ... so, conditions. And it was ill-fated. A second coup d'etat sent Aristide into exile again in 2004. His party, Fanmi Lavalas, continues to stand for elections in Haiti's parliament.

The thing is, it became clear that while Clinton was trying to restore Haiti's elected leader, his own CIA was backing FRAPH and Raoul Cedras and the coup leaders.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:20 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:07 am
Posts: 16660
...over $6 trillion. And that's according to Donald Trump.

So Iraq says it needs $88 billion dollars in aid to help it rebuild what is left of the country.

Of course, Donald's entire administrative "plan" is "where's mine?" How much money can he personally rake in using the office that the asshole electorate of this country handed to him on a silver platter. So Trump's response is to hang whatever is left of the people of Iraq out to dry and twist in the wind.

Rex says, "fuck off."

so rex was the one who said fuck off to our US territory of puerto rico?
..you know...one of those "shithole" territories over which the US claims ownership.

not sure if ole rex had any merits prior to this gig but he's been sucked dry of anything worthwhile
since moving in with groper.

_________________
Who are these...flag-sucking halfwits fleeced fooled by stupid little rich kids They speak for all that is cruel stupid
They are racists hate mongers I piss down the throats of these Nazis Im too old to worry whether they like it Fuck them.
HST.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:42 am 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:31 pm
Posts: 3838
I didn't mean to side track the thread. I only meant that Clinton stayed way from wars in general. Those mentioned are minor compared to Iraq. I questioned his judgement supporting the Iraq war. Not just me, but a whole lot of people opposed the invasion and saber rattling. Also take note, since he was not president at the time, Clinton's support was limited to voicing an opinion.

I remember Wag The Dog accusations which were not true. He had a rather unproductive missile attack in Afghanistan. But at the time, I seemed to overlook that as not very significant.

Did anybody know the Iraq war was going to be this disastrous? Clinton may have thought it would be a one week war, but I didn't. This nightmare will never end, it looks like. If we ignore reconstruction, it will undermine the security of Iraq. Our foreign policy is depressing.

_________________
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_8wdvTjq8


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:48 am 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:46 am
Posts: 1566
Clinton got involved with the Balkan Wars while in office. He sent troops into the Balkan Peninsula as well as conducted a bombing campaign. While we had a large number of troops in the Balkans we lost very few to hostile actions because, unlike Bush 43, he did it smartly.

Serbia, kosovo....... we bombed the shit out of iraq..... countless times.... but your point is well taken.... Bill didn't want to get into a slog and get tied down. Almost sounds like he thought about shit before doing it......

_________________
24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence.....I think not!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:04 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 11712
Location: Sunny South Florida
I didn't mean to side track the thread. I only meant that Clinton stayed way from wars in general. Those mentioned are minor compared to Iraq. I questioned his judgement supporting the Iraq war. Not just me, but a whole lot of people opposed the invasion and saber rattling. Also take note, since he was not president at the time, Clinton's support was limited to voicing an opinion.

I remember Wag The Dog accusations which were not true. He had a rather unproductive missile attack in Afghanistan. But at the time, I seemed to overlook that as not very significant.

Did anybody know the Iraq war was going to be this disastrous? Clinton may have thought it would be a one week war, but I didn't. This nightmare will never end, it looks like. If we ignore reconstruction, it will undermine the security of Iraq. Our foreign policy is depressing.


I'm sorry Fox. Do you have a source for that quote? I was curious myself as I didn't remember him ever saying that (not that I'm accusing you of telling an untruth, but I am curious about your source.) So his statement was that he was fine with the war because he thought "W" Bush could win it in a week?

(BTW, I was against the Iraq War in 2003 - not just later on in 2004-6 ... gave a speech against the invasion during a campus rally.)

So I did do some hunting about his views on Iraq War II (not Iraq War I) and came across this.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... basically/

The meme cites the 1998 Iraq Liberation Act. Clinton did sign that law, which passed with just 38 dissenters in the House and by unanimous consent in the Senate. The law said it "should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."

However, the methods of regime change mentioned in the law are U.S. support for home-grown anti-Hussein movements, including humanitarian aid, broadcasting assistance and military goods and training. The recipients of such aid would need to include "a broad spectrum of Iraqi individuals, groups, or both, opposed to the Saddam Hussein regime" and be "committed to democratic values, to respect for human rights, to peaceful relations with Iraq's neighbors, to maintaining Iraq's territorial integrity, and to fostering cooperation among democratic opponents of the Saddam Hussein regime."

That’s a big difference from Bush’s decision to use military force to attack and enter Iraq and topple Hussein by force.

"There's a difference between what Clinton did and said and George W. Bush's decision to overtly invade and topple the Hussein regime with force," said Lance Janda, a military historian at Cameron University. "We'll never know if Clinton would have done that. We know, however, that Bush did, and he and his supporters have to live with that alone. They don't get to cravenly try to share responsibility with a man who was long out of office when we invaded."

[snip][end[

Of course, that's merely the statements he made in the 90s, and doesn't really show his response post-2003.

So then I found this from 2004:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/

(CNN) -- Former President Clinton has revealed that he continues to support President Bush's decision to go to war in Iraq but chastised the administration over the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison.

"I have repeatedly defended President Bush against the left on Iraq, even though I think he should have waited until the U.N. inspections were over," Clinton said in a Time magazine interview that will hit newsstands Monday, a day before the publication of his book "My Life."

Clinton, who was interviewed Thursday, said he did not believe that Bush went to war in Iraq over oil or for imperialist reasons but out of a genuine belief that large quantities of weapons of mass destruction remained unaccounted for.

Noting that Bush had to be "reeling" in the wake of the attacks of September 11, 2001, Clinton said Bush's first priority was to keep al Qaeda and other terrorist networks from obtaining "chemical and biological weapons or small amounts of fissile material."

"That's why I supported the Iraq thing. There was a lot of stuff unaccounted for," Clinton said in reference to Iraq and the fact that U.N. weapons inspectors left the country in 1998.

"So I thought the president had an absolute responsibility to go to the U.N. and say, 'Look, guys, after 9/11, you have got to demand that Saddam Hussein lets us finish the inspection process.' You couldn't responsibly ignore [the possibility that] a tyrant had these stocks," Clinton said.

Pressed on whether the Iraq war was worth the cost to the United States, Clinton said he would not have undertaken the war until after U.N. chief weapons inspector Hans Blix "finished his job." (*)

Weapons inspectors led by Blix scoured Iraq for three and a half months before the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003 but left after President Bush issued an ultimatum to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein to leave the country.

"I want it to have been worth it, even though I didn't agree with the timing of the attack," Clinton said.

Clinton blamed the Abu Ghraib prison abuses on poorly trained National Guard personnel and higher-ups in the Bush administration.

The former president said he was not surprised by the abuses committed by U.S. forces at Abu Ghraib but that he was surprised by their extent.

"There is no excuse for that," Clinton said.

Clinton blamed the abuses on the higher echelons of the Bush administration.

[snip][end]

(*) So, BTW, despite the headline of this article, it doesn't look like Clinton offered unqualified support for Bush's actions.

And yes, we all know how his wife voted in Congress, but as I recall, she also said in voting for authorization of force, she believed it was to give Bush the authority to invade only if Hussein forced Blix and the investigators out of the country ... but, as we know, Bush did not wait for the inspectors to finish. Kerry more or less said the same thing when he was asked about his Iraq War vote in 2004.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Last edited by ProfessorX on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:07 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:01 pm
Posts: 16269
Clinton got involved with the Balkan Wars while in office. He sent troops into the Balkan Peninsula as well as conducted a bombing campaign. While we had a large number of troops in the Balkans we lost very few to hostile actions because, unlike Bush 43, he did it smartly.


Genocide and ethnic cleansing was going on in the Balkans...perped almost exclusively by Christian Serbs. If there was ever a situation where we should have stuck our nose in it after WWII it was in the Balkans. And you're absolutely correct, Clinton did it the best way it could have been done.

When I catch some asshole beating a dog with a stick do I say "Hey! It's not nice to beat a dog with a stick!" No. I pick up a stick and the first thing out of my mouth is, "Hurts don't it?"

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:56 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:06 pm
Posts: 12963
Serbia, kosovo....... we bombed the shit out of iraq..... countless times.... but your point is well taken.... Bill didn't want to get into a slog and get tied down. Almost sounds like he thought about shit before doing it......

He was reluctant to get involved but in the end he thought it out pretty well. I was deployed with a small group of medical personnel to Zagreb, Croatia in 1995 to support the Implementation Forces. We took care mostly U.S. and European forces but we also treated U.N. military personnel. The U.N. personnel were getting beat up in town when they were off-duty but no one bothered the Americans. We had a Croatian doctor working with us and he told us the Croatian people were thankful the Americans were there because they stopped the war ravaging their country.

_________________
When you vote Left you vote right.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:06 pm 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:31 pm
Posts: 3838
I'm sorry Fox. Do you have a source for that quote? I was curious myself as I didn't remember him ever saying that (not that I'm accusing you of telling an untruth, but I am curious about your source.) So his statement was that he was fine with the war because he thought "W" Bush could win it in a week?

(BTW, I was against the Iraq War in 2003 - not just later on in 2004-6 ... gave a speech against the invasion during a campus rally.)

So I did do some hunting about his views on Iraq War II (not Iraq War I) and came across this.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... basically/

The meme cites the 1998 Iraq Liberation Act. Clinton did sign that law, which passed with just 38 dissenters in the House and by unanimous consent in the Senate. The law said it "should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."

However, the methods of regime change mentioned in the law are U.S. support for home-grown anti-Hussein movements, including humanitarian aid, broadcasting assistance and military goods and training. The recipients of such aid would need to include "a broad spectrum of Iraqi individuals, groups, or both, opposed to the Saddam Hussein regime" and be "committed to democratic values, to respect for human rights, to peaceful relations with Iraq's neighbors, to maintaining Iraq's territorial integrity, and to fostering cooperation among democratic opponents of the Saddam Hussein regime."

That’s a big difference from Bush’s decision to use military force to attack and enter Iraq and topple Hussein by force.

"There's a difference between what Clinton did and said and George W. Bush's decision to overtly invade and topple the Hussein regime with force," said Lance Janda, a military historian at Cameron University. "We'll never know if Clinton would have done that. We know, however, that Bush did, and he and his supporters have to live with that alone. They don't get to cravenly try to share responsibility with a man who was long out of office when we invaded."

[snip][end[

Of course, that's merely the statements he made in the 90s, and doesn't really show his response post-2003.

So then I found this from 2004:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/

(CNN) -- Former President Clinton has revealed that he continues to support President Bush's decision to go to war in Iraq but chastised the administration over the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison.

"I have repeatedly defended President Bush against the left on Iraq, even though I think he should have waited until the U.N. inspections were over," Clinton said in a Time magazine interview that will hit newsstands Monday, a day before the publication of his book "My Life."

Clinton, who was interviewed Thursday, said he did not believe that Bush went to war in Iraq over oil or for imperialist reasons but out of a genuine belief that large quantities of weapons of mass destruction remained unaccounted for.

Noting that Bush had to be "reeling" in the wake of the attacks of September 11, 2001, Clinton said Bush's first priority was to keep al Qaeda and other terrorist networks from obtaining "chemical and biological weapons or small amounts of fissile material."

"That's why I supported the Iraq thing. There was a lot of stuff unaccounted for," Clinton said in reference to Iraq and the fact that U.N. weapons inspectors left the country in 1998.

"So I thought the president had an absolute responsibility to go to the U.N. and say, 'Look, guys, after 9/11, you have got to demand that Saddam Hussein lets us finish the inspection process.' You couldn't responsibly ignore [the possibility that] a tyrant had these stocks," Clinton said.

Pressed on whether the Iraq war was worth the cost to the United States, Clinton said he would not have undertaken the war until after U.N. chief weapons inspector Hans Blix "finished his job." (*)

Weapons inspectors led by Blix scoured Iraq for three and a half months before the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003 but left after President Bush issued an ultimatum to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein to leave the country.

"I want it to have been worth it, even though I didn't agree with the timing of the attack," Clinton said.

Clinton blamed the Abu Ghraib prison abuses on poorly trained National Guard personnel and higher-ups in the Bush administration.

The former president said he was not surprised by the abuses committed by U.S. forces at Abu Ghraib but that he was surprised by their extent.

"There is no excuse for that," Clinton said.

Clinton blamed the abuses on the higher echelons of the Bush administration.

[snip][end]

(*) So, BTW, despite the headline of this article, it doesn't look like Clinton offered unqualified support for Bush's actions.

And yes, we all know how his wife voted in Congress, but as I recall, she also said in voting for authorization of force, she believed it was to give Bush the authority to invade only if Hussein forced Blix and the investigators out of the country ... but, as we know, Bush did not wait for the inspectors to finish. Kerry more or less said the same thing when he was asked about his Iraq War vote in 2004.

Alas, somebody may remember. Back in the good old days when I watched TV, Clinton doing interviews on late night talk shows once said exactly that. Clinton wasn't giving unbridled support for Bush, but he wasn't at all in opposition. This was very disappointing to me because he was a president I gladly voted for twice. His friendship with Bush was disturbing. If his remark was meant as a joke, it was a bad joke.

_________________
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_8wdvTjq8


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:10 pm 
Online
Board Emeritus

Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:27 pm
Posts: 8267
Location: miles from nowhere
There will be more war. There will continue to be war in the Middle East. The military is no longer just the military. It is the creator of foreign policy. The founders were utopianists from the standpoint of not becoming involved in foreign entanglements. Such were simply bound to occur as the royal nation-state ground to an end. Unfortunately even though democracies don’t go to war against each other, economic war excluded, they do become involved in war. And with the alleged supremacy of techno-warfare imo it will happen with increased frequency. Techno-warfare asserts a falsehood namely bloodless warfare. While drone pilots for example may not die they certainly can be damaged by PTSD. And let us not discount blowback.

It doesn’t matter how much war in the Middle East has cost. It will continue and we will continue to be involved.

_________________
bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

The new motto of the USA: Unum de multis. Out of one, many.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:37 pm 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:26 pm
Posts: 1080
There will be more war. There will continue to be war in the Middle East. The military is no longer just the military. It is the creator of foreign policy. The founders were utopianists from the standpoint of not becoming involved in foreign entanglements. Such were simply bound to occur as the royal nation-state ground to an end. Unfortunately even though democracies don’t go to war against each other, economic war excluded, they do become involved in war. And with the alleged supremacy of techno-warfare imo it will happen with increased frequency. Techno-warfare asserts a falsehood namely bloodless warfare. While drone pilots for example may not die they certainly can be damaged by PTSD. And let us not discount blowback.

It doesn’t matter how much war in the Middle East has cost. It will continue and we will continue to be involved.
Yeah.

No foreign entanglements was never a reality. In fact the American founding fathers sought foreign help. And by the very early 1800's, some who might be called among the founding fathers were sending the military to the middle east.

As for the meme that 'democracies don't go to war with each other,' history proves otherwise. Wikipedia shows this list of wars between democracies It does make the point that this is dependent on your definition of democracy, your definition of war. One might, on the other hand, argue that it is relatively unusual and, therefore does point to democracies being less likely to go to war with each other. (even relating to this thread, the the Yugoslav Wars of the early 1990's involved multi party systems in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia. Turkey invaded Cyprus. Lebanon (while, at least, a nominal democracy) went to war against Israel.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:57 pm 
Online
Board Emeritus

Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:27 pm
Posts: 8267
Location: miles from nowhere
Yeah.

No foreign entanglements was never a reality. In fact the American founding fathers sought foreign help. And by the very early 1800's, some who might be called among the founding fathers were sending the military to the middle east.

As for the meme that 'democracies don't go to war with each other,' history proves otherwise. Wikipedia shows this list of wars between democracies It does make the point that this is dependent on your definition of democracy, your definition of war. One might, on the other hand, argue that it is relatively unusual and, therefore does point to democracies being less likely to go to war with each other. (even relating to this thread, the the Yugoslav Wars of the early 1990's involved multi party systems in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia. Turkey invaded Cyprus. Lebanon (while, at least, a nominal democracy) went to war against Israel.

Won’t argue the point Viewer. Basically there are countries with established democratic institutions and countries with the trappings of democracy. We seem to be sliding into the second category even though we were among the first and relatively successful.

_________________
bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

The new motto of the USA: Unum de multis. Out of one, many.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:24 pm 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:31 pm
Posts: 3838
I listened to Bill Clinton for 30 minutes, and it doesn't take long to find out how much more intelligent and knowledgeable he is than our current occupant in the White House.

www.youtube.com Video from : www.youtube.com


30 min. in the show Clinton says what I told you.

_________________
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_8wdvTjq8


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bird, carmenjonze, Google [Bot], marindem and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group