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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:42 pm 
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Is it one of your principles that everyone is entitled to due process in the workplace? You can have principles that extend beyond what is legally required by law.


This question is a canard. Conservatives do not believe in "due process" anywhere, let alone in our right-to-work workplaces.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:44 pm 
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You are avoiding answering the question? Is it one of your principles that everyone is entitled to due process in the workplace? By the way, you don't have to go to court to have due process.

No, you're the one avoiding questions.

Well, execs with contracts are enforceable in court. Workers with contracts are enforceable, too, but they have an arbitration process (that works very well).

I believe every hourly working person should be entitled to a collective bargaining agreement in their workplace that gives them the right to due process.

I don't believe non-bargaining supervisory personnel should have the same right. It would kill a business when you could only replace management for just cause.

So, Joe, you're the one acting like everyone in the nation deserves full due process. How would you work that without involving courts?

Go ahead, I'm ready to hear this.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:46 pm 
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This question is a canard. Conservatives do not believe in "due process" anywhere, let alone in our right-to-work workplaces.

Of course. Joe, in trying to win an argument, has thrown HIS principles out the window and finds himself tied up like a pretzel arguing to the left of me! I mean, his argument sounds like socialism!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:49 pm 
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I never said that full time investigators need to be hired for each elected official. No. But if allegations are made and an investigation is warranted, such investigation should be unbiased and thorough. Any questions?

So you are okay I take it with due process for union members that you represent but you find the idea of due process for other folks problematic? Please explain why one group is entitled to due process and not the other.

Your last sentence is intriguing. Right to work results in employment at will. You have no due process. An employer can fire you at will. Granted most don’t but that is irrelevant. Collective action known as a Union is the only defense against right to work and employment at will.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:52 pm 
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Joe is trying to make the laughable argument that Trump as President should not be judged until and unless he's convicted of a felony, and that I should demand the same thing because I believe workers deserve a contract that protects them.

It's a dumbass argument, but he's going to continue it anyway.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:25 pm 
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You are avoiding answering the question? Is it one of your principles that everyone is entitled to due process in the workplace? By the way, you don't have to go to court to have due process.


The only one avoiding anything is you with your constant derailing of any thread where your feet are held to the fire.
Quote:
- by Ike
What's wrong with it is what's behind it. And what's behind it is that Joe is a front line soldier in the culture war and he wants to be able to deny it. So he plays this "loyal opposition" bullshit game around here. Look how reasonable I am and how divisive the rest of you are. Look how ignorant you all are, I provide a plethora of facts and you people are too ignorant or too partisan to see it. It's our own RFL local take on fake news.

Joe's as partisan as Denny Crane, the kernel, or Lynch. It's fucking ridiculous. THis is a battle for the future of the culture and people like Joe want to be able to sneak up on progressives, and slam them in the back of the head with a three foot length of rebar while we are all still thinking he's just our loyal opposition pal. No fuckin' way Jose.


As a matter of fact you're worse than any of these people...all of them were at least honest enough to put their actual agenda forward openly and honestly. I

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Last edited by Ike Bana on Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:28 pm 
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Just FYI, it was probably an honest mistake in posting, but the quote in Ike's post from me is actually from Ike, in a reply to a post I made. No big deal, but I thought it didn't sound like me...


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:26 pm 
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No, you're the one avoiding questions.

Well, execs with contracts are enforceable in court. Workers with contracts are enforceable, too, but they have an arbitration process (that works very well).

I believe every hourly working person should be entitled to a collective bargaining agreement in their workplace that gives them the right to due process.

I don't believe non-bargaining supervisory personnel should have the same right. It would kill a business when you could only replace management for just cause.

So, Joe, you're the one acting like everyone in the nation deserves full due process. How would you work that without involving courts?

Go ahead, I'm ready to hear this.


I am just asking you whether or not you believe that everyone deserves due process. You obviously don't want to answer the question. Due process is not a matter of going to court. You do not have to go to court to receive due process. Most large companies have policies in place whose objective is to make sure that when employees are terminated for cause that such termination is based on facts and are not arbitrary or based on rumor or innuendo. I am not saying it works that way everytime but that is the objective. So you either believe in that concept for everyone or you do not. Simple question. Do you believe in due process? Do you believe in it for everyone?

You claim that you have taught management to managers and yet you cannot answer the simplest of questions regarding basic fairness.

By the way - We are discussing the termination of an employee for cause. Mismanagement of funds.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:33 pm 
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Joe is trying to make the laughable argument that Trump as President should not be judged until and unless he's convicted of a felony, and that I should demand the same thing because I believe workers deserve a contract that protects them.

It's a dumbass argument, but he's going to continue it anyway.


I never said you have to be guilty of a felony to be removed from office. Based upon the constitution, there is a process in place for removing a President from office that involves making a case and presenting evidence. It's called impeachment. Do you believe in that process?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:38 pm 
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Your last sentence is intriguing. Right to work results in employment at will. You have no due process. An employer can fire you at will. Granted most don’t but that is irrelevant. Collective action known as a Union is the only defense against right to work and employment at will.


You are right Bird. But the question is whether GoU believes that everyone deserves or should get some kind of due process before being terminated. It's not a question of the state of the current law. It is a question of what you believe to be right or wrong or fair and unfair. If you think hourly employees under a union contract deserve due process, do you think that every employee should have some form of due process or is that simply a "perk".


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:55 pm 
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You are right Bird. But the question is whether GoU believes that everyone deserves or should get some kind of due process before being terminated. It's not a question of the state of the current law. It is a question of what you believe to be right or wrong or fair and unfair. If you think hourly employees under a union contract deserve due process, do you think that every employee should have some form of due process or is that simply a "perk".

I gave MY views. Now give YOURS. I answered all your questions. Do you think every person in America must have due process in being terminated? That they can ONLY be removed for just cause? Yes or no?

Or are you just trying to make a stupid-ass argument, like you usually do? Because I'm quite sure your place of business does NOT require full due process in terminating someone. Some my get that, but the company will drop that requirement any time they decide differently.

You see Dems as automatically guilty of anything the right accuses them of - you told me what you thought of the Clintons. But Scott Pruitt? Well, you just haven't seen enough of the facts of what he's doing.

You can put those two situations side-by-side, and your hypocrisy is quite evident.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:59 pm 
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I never said you have to be guilty of a felony to be removed from office. Based upon the constitution, there is a process in place for removing a President from office that involves making a case and presenting evidence. It's called impeachment. Do you believe in that process?

Let's be clear about something: Impeachment is NOT a legal process. It's a POLITICAL process. Clinton was impeached over politics, not legalities.

No, I do not believe the impeachment process is good for America. I believe today's Republicans are so corrupt and self-serving that they WILL NOT VOTE TO IMPEACH TRUMP, no matter the facts of the Mueller investigation.

How about you? I think if Mueller presents a criminal case against Trump, you will still vote for Republicans that won't vote to impeach Trump. You'll have a chance - Marsha Blackburn will be the Republican candidate for Senate in November, and she's already said she's going to be Trump's biggest supporter, no matter what he does.

What will YOU do?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:02 pm 
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I gave MY views. Now give YOURS. I answered all your questions. Do you think every person in America must have due process in being terminated? That they can ONLY be removed for just cause? Yes or no?

Or are you just trying to make a stupid-ass argument, like you usually do? Because I'm quite sure your place of business does NOT require full due process in terminating someone. Some my get that, but the company will drop that requirement any time they decide differently.

You see Dems as automatically guilty of anything the right accuses them of - you told me what you thought of the Clintons. But Scott Pruitt? Well, you just haven't seen enough of the facts of what he's doing.

You can put those two situations side-by-side, and your hypocrisy is quite evident.


I think that everyone being terminated for cause deserves due process. I think they are entitled to see evidence. I think they are entitled to be heard. I think the evidence against them needs to be corroborated and evaluated objectively without prejudice. Yep. that's what I believe. That isn't necessarily required by law. But I believe that is a fair standard.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:05 pm 
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I think that everyone being terminated for cause deserves due process. I think they are entitled to see evidence. I think they are entitled to be heard. I think the evidence against them needs to be corroborated and evaluated objectively without prejudice. Yep. that's what I believe. That isn't necessarily required by law. But I believe that is a fair standard.

Hilarious. Because that's not what happens in this world. And it would never work in management. People are often terminated without cause - they just aren't the "right fit" - they haven't done anything wrong. So how do you provide such "evidence"? It's not a case you could make in an arbitration.

It's also not a case you can make against an exec with a contract.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:07 pm 
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I guess Joe believes that Trump should have accepted all of Obama's cabinet and other political appointees, after all, there was no just cause to terminate them...

Such is tortured logic.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:14 pm 
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Let's be clear about something: Impeachment is NOT a legal process. It's a POLITICAL process. Clinton was impeached over politics, not legalities.

No, I do not believe the impeachment process is good for America. I believe today's Republicans are so corrupt and self-serving that they WILL NOT VOTE TO IMPEACH TRUMP, no matter the facts of the Mueller investigation.

How about you? I think if Mueller presents a criminal case against Trump, you will still vote for Republicans that won't vote to impeach Trump. You'll have a chance - Marsha Blackburn will be the Republican candidate for Senate in November, and she's already said she's going to be Trump's biggest supporter, no matter what he does.

What will YOU do?


So if Mueller prevents evidence of collusion or money laundering, you do not favor impeachment? Don't let Ike hear you say that. He will call you an asshole Trumper.

I have said numerous times that if Mueller produces evidence of high crimes and misdemeanors that Trump should be impeached. I am just waiting for the case to be made. You claim the evidence will be overwhelming. Yet you are backing off of impeachment because you claim your political opponents are corrupt. How brave of you. That's what I call standing on your principles.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:19 pm 
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So if Mueller prevents evidence of collusion or money laundering, you do not favor impeachment? Don't let Ike hear you say that. He will call you an asshole Trumper.

I have said numerous times that if Mueller produces evidence of high crimes and misdemeanors that Trump should be impeached. I am just waiting for the case to be made. You claim the evidence will be overwhelming. Yet you are backing off of impeachment because you claim your political opponents are corrupt. How brave of you. That's what I call standing on your principles.

No, dumbass. I didn't say I didn't want impeachment. You asked, and I quote:

Based upon the constitution, there is a process in place for removing a President from office that involves making a case and presenting evidence. It's called impeachment. Do you believe in that process?

And I didn't say I didn't want Trump impeached. I pointed out - correctly, I might add - that impeachment isn't a legal process based upon guilt and innocence, it's a POLITICAL process. It was evident in the Clinton impeachment, which was completely political. Hell, all though Obama's administration - from day one - Republicans called for Obama's impeachment, even though his was the most scandal-free administration in modern history.

No matter WHAT Mueller finds, the Republicans will NOT vote to impeach Trump, because the Republicans are corrupt and are backing Trump, no matter how corrupt he is.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:21 pm 
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And Joe, don't try to see if you can turn liberal members against each other. It's a stupid, childish tactic, and should be beneath you.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:22 pm 
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Hilarious. Because that's not what happens in this world. And it would never work in management. People are often terminated without cause - they just aren't the "right fit" - they haven't done anything wrong. So how do you provide such "evidence"? It's not a case you could make in an arbitration.

It's also not a case you can make against an exec with a contract.


You are claiming the a cabinet officer deserves to be terminated for cause. Mismanagement of taxpayer money. That's "for cause". Do you believe employees being terminated for cause deserve due process? If I terminate a management employee for mismanagement of company resources for example, should I have to make a case for that termination based on facts. Should that management employee have a right to defend themselves? Not a hard question GoU. Do employees terminated for cause deserve due process or do you think they don't deserve basic fairness?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:23 pm 
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Of course. Joe, in trying to win an argument, has thrown HIS principles out the window and finds himself tied up like a pretzel arguing to the left of me! I mean, his argument sounds like socialism!


:lol:

Conservatives have no integrity. It doesn't have to be that way but they choose to be that way. I find it weird, living a dishonest life when you don't have to, but whatever...

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:25 pm 
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You are claiming the a cabinet officer deserves to be terminated for cause. Mismanagement of taxpayer money. That's "for cause". Do you believe employees being terminated for cause deserve due process? If I terminate a management employee for mismanagement of company resources for example, should I have to make a case for that termination based on facts. Should that management employee have a right to defend themselves? Not a hard question GoU. Do employees terminated for cause deserve due process or do you think they don't deserve basic fairness?

We already have proof of what the man's being doing. Of course, you wouldn't know any of that, because I guess you refuse to read articles concerning wrongdoing of Republicans.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:26 pm 
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No, dumbass. I didn't say I didn't want impeachment. You asked, and I quote:

Based upon the constitution, there is a process in place for removing a President from office that involves making a case and presenting evidence. It's called impeachment. Do you believe in that process?

And I didn't say I didn't want Trump impeached. I pointed out - correctly, I might add - that impeachment isn't a legal process based upon guilt and innocence, it's a POLITICAL process. It was evident in the Clinton impeachment, which was completely political. Hell, all though Obama's administration - from day one - Republicans called for Obama's impeachment, even though his was the most scandal-free administration in modern history.

No matter WHAT Mueller finds, the Republicans will NOT vote to impeach Trump, because the Republicans are corrupt and are backing Trump, no matter how corrupt he is.


Well dumbass this is what you DID say:

"No, I do not believe the impeachment process is good for America.".

So you either want it or you don't. You either believe it is good for America or you don't.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:26 pm 
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You are claiming the a cabinet officer deserves to be terminated for cause. Mismanagement of taxpayer money. That's "for cause". Do you believe employees being terminated for cause deserve due process? If I terminate a management employee for mismanagement of company resources for example, should I have to make a case for that termination based on facts. Should that management employee have a right to defend themselves? Not a hard question GoU. Do employees terminated for cause deserve due process or do you think they don't deserve basic fairness?


The only reason you're going to these legnths to conflate politicians being made to leave office and termination of employment is because GoU is in the thread. It's a form of pandering.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:27 pm 
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Joe, of course, doesn't know it, but traditionally cabinet officials have been terminated for the mere appearance of impropriety. And I think that's fine. But hey, if you don't want Republicans fired, you sure has hell have to throw THAT standard out!!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:29 pm 
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Well dumbass this is what you DID say:

"No, I do not believe the impeachment process is good for America.".

So you either want it or you don't. You either believe it is good for America or you don't.

I thought with your college education, you'd understand English.

I think we need a legal, not a political process to remove a corrupt President. But since we don't have that, Trump needs to be impeached NOW. He's done too much damage to this nation already.

Can you fucking understand THAT???


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