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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:53 pm 
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The black men committed no crime but were taken away in handcuffs by police and held for 8 hours.

This would never happen to white realtors waiting in Starbucks for a client meeting.

So no, the blame share is not equal; never was.


It never was and never is. The only "Crime" these men committed no crime, all they did was to wait for a client. Unless this is one one Starbuck's where waiting for a client is not allowed, then there was no crime.

I have read no story about WHITE MEN waiting in Black Owned and Black Operated Oakland ted Business of being as to leave because they were waiting to meet someone. Now, there a Coffee House in hat refuses to Cops in Uniform and the RW media had a shit fit. That cops in plainclothes do get served was never mentioned.

Should men have been handcuffed and arrested? Doubtful at best. As often as I have told a friend to meet me somewhere or a friend or friends told me to meet them somewhere, like cafe I have never been arrested and neither have they. I have said "No thank you I'm waiting for someone", and I'm left alone...but then again I'm White.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:06 pm 
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marindem wrote:

I live here, you do not. I know the population because in 5-Separate Election I walked Marin City. The more expensive town home's on Donahue, Bay Vista Circle and Valley View Drive are White Owned.

The Mariner Ridge development where I live was originally a HUD/State/Local Development. There are both Market Rate Homes (Mine is one of them) and the rest of housing Section 8. There are apartments, Caucasian/Black/Hispanic.

With Projects there is a strong African-American Majority.

Also, bear in mind when talking about Marin City, you are also to certain degree talking about Golden Gate National Recreation Area (G.G.N.R.A.), which borders my home on Drake Avenue.

Density is one thing, population is another.

The history of Marin City is very simple. Within 3-Months of Pearl Harbor housing for workers at what was then MarinShip (Liberty Ships were built there). The workers were mixed Black and White. After the war African-Americans remained in Marin City. When the projects were built, they were designed with the African-American population in mind. By the mid-1960's Marin City was a Black Centric Community. Later addition of Homes on Stilts were built (here we call them Stick Houses).

Those homes were open to families in the Projects and others were market rate. For many years there was a Flea Market where my home is now. In the 1990's, Mariner Ridge was developed. As said before it was joint venture the Feds, State of California and Marin County doing the development. Homes were both Market Rate and Low Income Housing with families living in the projects getting to buy a home.

As far as I know, no White Families lived in the Projects when I moved in (1997). African-Americans represent a majority of the population in Marin City and they always have.

My previous post stands.


When I was there the Starbucks in Marin City was in a shopping center off of the Donahue exit. It had a fairly large seating area. i was fairly often there because their ice machine didn't like the strong hard water. They also had a back room cooler stuffed in a too small room which gave it insufficient air for it to cool.

It was a friendly shop. It was always have a cup of coffee on us while you work kind of place. As I recall the manager was a Black woman and about half of the staff were Black persons as well. As the excuser for Ted Bundy would always say, they were nice people.



As I recall they did have a drive up window, but about half of them in outlying areas do. It was kind of located in the middle of the shopping center area, it would have been quite a drive if one were coming off of the freeway.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:11 pm 
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When I was there the Starbucks in Marin City was in a shopping center off of the Donahue exit. It had a fairly large seating area. i was fairly often there because their ice machine didn't like the strong hard water. They also had a back room cooler stuffed in a too small room which gave it insufficient air for it to cool.

It was a friendly shop. It was always have a cup of coffee on us while you work kind of place. As I recall the manager was a Black woman and about half of the staff were Black persons as well. As the excuser for Ted Bundy would always say, they were nice people.


What always makes me kind of chuckle when the now-weekly major news stories about this sort of thing is that it never seems to occur to people that guys like the real estate agents might also be "friendly" "nice guys".

They are the ones who ended up accosted in handcuffs.

The United States has a really, really long history of this behavior and has gotten really good at presuming Black criminality based on centuries of race propaganda. Black professionals deal with this mentality on a daily basis. I read excuse after excuse after rationalization for it.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:49 pm 
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The black men committed no crime but were taken away in handcuffs by police and held for 8 hours.

This would never happen to white realtors waiting in Starbucks for a client meeting.

So no, the blame share is not equal; never was.

I see we're going to disagree on this one. The men weren't customers in that they weren't buying anything or waiting to buy something. Starbucks tend to occupy small floor space so that means people who aren't buying something from them are taking up space paying customers could be using. The manager asked them to leave, which is his right, and the men refused. Had they left the police wouldn't have been called. So yes, the blame is equally shared between the manager, the men, and the police who over-responded.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:56 pm 
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I see we're going to disagree on this one. The men weren't customers in that they weren't buying anything or waiting to buy something. Starbucks tend to occupy small floor space so that means people who aren't buying something from them are taking up space paying customers could be using. The manager asked them to leave, which is his right, and the men refused. Had they left the police wouldn't have been called. So yes, the blame is equally shared between the manager, the men, and the police who over-responded.


Of course we disagree on this one, because I can very easily see it happening to me and people I know. I could easily take the position that oh it couldn't ever happen to ME because I always buy something when I take clients to Starbucks. But as we know, there is a double standard in expectations that says at any moment I'll fit the description.

This would not happen to our white peers.

Our white peers do not have a history of being considered criminals on sight by store managers and police, or of the same kind of Neighborhood Welcomes we experience. We do.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:03 pm 
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Of course we disagree on this one, because I can very easily see it happening to me and people I know. I could easily take the position that oh it couldn't ever happen to ME because I always buy something when I take clients to Starbucks. But as we know, there is a double standard in expectations that says at any moment I'll fit the description.

This would not happen to our white peers.

Our white peers do not have a history of being considered criminals on sight by store managers and police, or of the same kind of Neighborhood Welcomes we experience. We do.


theres at least a few whites that get that but very few compared overall

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:07 pm 
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Of course we disagree on this one, because I can very easily see it happening to me and people I know. I could easily take the position that oh it couldn't ever happen to ME because I always buy something when I take clients to Starbucks. But as we know, there is a double standard in expectations that says at any moment I'll fit the description.

This would not happen to our white peers.

Our white peers do not have a history of being considered criminals on sight by store managers and police, or of the same kind of Neighborhood Welcomes we experience. We do.

carmen, Starbucks isn't like walking into to a Target or Walmart where there's room wander. I doubt I be allowed, being white, to stand inside a small business store not shopping or buying anything. Store owners don't want non-customers in their store taking up floor space real customers could be using.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:12 pm 
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When I was there the Starbucks in Marin City was in a shopping center off of the Donahue exit.


You might remember a Burger King as well, driving into the shopping center on the right. Well BK died and Starbuck's took over that building and now has a drive through window and everything. Close to Panda (Taco Bell died as well) but still an easy and easy off for freeway traffic.

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Last edited by marindem on Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:53 pm 
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carmen, Starbucks isn't like walking into to a Target or Walmart where there's room wander. I doubt I be allowed, being white, to stand inside a small business store not shopping or buying anything. Store owners don't want non-customers in their store taking up floor space real customers could be using.


Look, we don't need advice on how to conduct ourselves at stupid Starbucks. It's Starbucks, not the gift shop at Buckingham Palace.

You may not think so, but real estate professionals do know the difference between Starbucks and a big box store, let alone public and private spaces.

And no, you would not get taken away in handcuffs by the cops for sitting in a Starbucks waiting on a client, not having bought anything. Get real, man.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:36 am 
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Look, we don't need advice on how to conduct ourselves at stupid Starbucks. It's Starbucks, not the gift shop at Buckingham Palace.

You may not think so, but real estate professionals do know the difference between Starbucks and a big box store, let alone public and private spaces.

And no, you would not get taken away in handcuffs by the cops for sitting in a Starbucks waiting on a client, not having bought anything. Get real, man.


technology makes it all the worse too in being able to collect info and pass it between each other and the police if it doesnt get onto social media like it did this time, maybe those particular guys info is passed around to all the businesses in the area then, and precipitating instantaneous similar reactions wherever they go.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:46 am 
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technology makes it all the worse too in being able to collect info and pass it between each other and the police if it doesnt get onto social media like it did this time, maybe those particular guys info is passed around to all the businesses in the area then, and precipitating instantaneous similar reactions wherever they go.


This is a cultural issue with a history in law and public policy that predates technology by about 400 years.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:15 am 
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carmen, Starbucks isn't like walking into to a Target or Walmart where there's room wander. I doubt I be allowed, being white, to stand inside a small business store not shopping or buying anything. Store owners don't want non-customers in their store taking up floor space real customers could be using.


C'mon 6...I think we all know that white guys and white women are meeting at Starbucks, one gets there before the other, nobody orders until their whole party gets there, and if somebody has to take a leak they go take a leak and nobody says boo about it. I've done it countless time, only maybe needed to take a leak only once or twice while I'm hanging out, waiting. This manager behaved like a MAGA asshole and Starbucks needs to do a way better job of screening, training, and supervising their managers.

Typical scenario...we're in the Chicago suburbs, it's 26 degrees this morning, I'm white...waiting for my pal Felipe in the Starbucks and he's running a little late (he calls it "running on Guadalajara time"). The manager walks up to me and says...
"If you're not going to place an order you need to leave."
"I'm waiting for a friend, we're going to have some coffee together as soon as he gets here."
"If you don't order now, you will have to wait outside."

I don't think so. But if it's Felipe waiting for me...there's a way better chance.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:55 am 
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...That said (this is not to defend the action), I do think sometimes we have a responsibility to avoid conflict. And (assuming the Starbucks employee wasn't a complete asshole in how they acted...which may not be be a fair assumption) simply saying they were waiting for their associate may (I emphasize may, as opposed to would) have alleviated the situation.
I read an article last night that said (that at least one person said) the men did tell the Starbucks associate that they were waiting for someone.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:11 am 
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You might remember a Burger King as well, driving into the shopping center on the left. Well BK died and Starbuck's took over that building and now has a drive through window and everything. Close to Panda but still an easy and easy off for freeway traffic


I don't specifically remember the Burger King, what I remember was thinking that the whole shopping center looked to me like it was still being built and was dying at the same time. It looked like it was too much shopping center for too few shoppers.

I also remember turning the wrong way at that oddball freeway interchange the first time I was trying to get back on, and that morning I ended up turned my van around in someones driveway because I wound up in some neighborhood. Fog and the sun not being up yet was a factor.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:14 am 
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...
I live here, you do not. I know the population because in 5-Separate Election I walked Marin City. ......
My previous post stands.
OK. No reason to fight about this. And I certainly don't remember that specific Starbucks. For the sake of the RadioFreeLiberal discussion board, I'll accept your anecdotal description. (For government work and other demographic needs, I'll stick with the census bureau however.)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:50 am 
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OK. No reason to fight about this. And I certainly don't remember that specific Starbucks. For the sake of the RadioFreeLiberal discussion board, I'll accept your anecdotal description. (For government work and other demographic needs, I'll stick with the census bureau however.)


Marin is a place where population clusters have formed. In one place one will feel like it's in Mexico, a mile away it will feel like Chelsea, and across the highway the Vietnam war, the 60's, with hippies is still happening.

There's a place not far from Marin City, Sausalito where the Starbucks is located in a area which reminds me of Telluride, Colorado. There instead of a big empty parking lot, I had to park on a narrow steep street at a meter and walk 5 blocks to get to the shop, where when I laid out my tools and got the machine apart there wasn't any room left in the shop for the customers. One of them stepped on my hand.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:16 am 
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I don't specifically remember the Burger King, what I remember was thinking that the whole shopping center looked to me like it was still being built and was dying at the same time. It looked like it was too much shopping center for too few shoppers.

I also remember turning the wrong way at that oddball freeway interchange the first time I was trying to get back on, and that morning I ended up turned my van around in someones driveway because I wound up in some neighborhood. Fog and the sun not being up yet was a factor.


That Interchange is one worst designs you will ever see. After the Sonoma County/Wine Country Fires, I pointed out that any evacuation plan for Marin City falls on its face because of the one way in/one way out we have. My Supervisor has never gotten back to me.

The Shopping Center is going through yet another incarnation. Freaking Palm Trees and new paint are suppose to make it better. The Outback we had gave up the ghost (even though it was always busy).

Years ago, the Shopping Center is where the Flea Market was.....people are still pissed about the Market being canceled.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:55 am 
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Marin is a place where population clusters have formed. In one place one will feel like it's in Mexico, a mile away it will feel like Chelsea, and across the highway the Vietnam war, the 60's, with hippies is still happening.

There's a place not far from Marin City, Sausalito where the Starbucks is located in a area which reminds me of Telluride, Colorado. There instead of a big empty parking lot, I had to park on a narrow steep street at a meter and walk 5 blocks to get to the shop, where when I laid out my tools and got the machine apart there wasn't any room left in the shop for the customers. One of them stepped on my hand.
Lived in the Bay area, so I'm familiar. Population clusters form all over.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:05 pm 
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Whites who waited for associates at the Starbucks in question never had a problem. These two guys were African American. They did not look scary. They are in the real estate business. The employee called the cops on them.

It's racist, and that's all there is to it. It reflects a racist culture, where one group has been marginalized, and now some people are afraid of anyone in it.

The problem isn't just Starbucks, or even that particular Starbucks. The problem is us.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:16 pm 
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Whites who waited for associates at the Starbucks in question never had a problem.

I don't know this to be true. We certainly know that at some Starbucks people who dont make purchases are asked to leave. Its a formal policy in some districts.

...
It's racist, and that's all there is to it. It reflects a racist culture, where one group has been marginalized, ...

The problem isn't just Starbucks, or even that particular Starbucks. The problem is us.
Accurate.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Whites who waited for associates at the Starbucks in question never had a problem. These two guys were African American. They did not look scary. They are in the real estate business. The employee called the cops on them.

It's racist, and that's all there is to it. It reflects a racist culture, where one group has been marginalized, and now some people are afraid of anyone in it.

The problem isn't just Starbucks, or even that particular Starbucks. The problem is us.


Agreed.

How many times have 2-White Guys sat down waiting for client in the same Starbuck's? How many times have a group of White People hung out in that same Starbuck's waiting friends/clients/associates and no cops were called on them?

This was a blatant racism. Two BLACK MEN were taken away in handcuffs for no other reason than waiting for another person to meet them. Last I checked that is not a crime.

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Glenfs posted about the Left's War On Women. Glenfs posted this after the Cosby Verdict "Gloria Allred is a media hound and an asshole. The most dangerous place to be is inbetween her and a microphone or camera". 04/27/2018.


Last edited by marindem on Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:29 pm 
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Whites who waited for associates at the Starbucks in question never had a problem. These two guys were African American. They did not look scary. They are in the real estate business. The employee called the cops on them.

It's racist, and that's all there is to it. It reflects a racist culture, where one group has been marginalized, and now some people are afraid of anyone in it.

The problem isn't just Starbucks, or even that particular Starbucks. The problem is us.


Well said. And in particular, the problem is those of us who are making excuses for Starbucks.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:10 pm 
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NATION-WORLD Starbucks to close all stores on May 29 for racial bias education

Quote:
In the midst of calls to boycott Starbucks following the controversial arrest of two black men at a store in Philadelphia, the company said Tuesday all locations will close their doors for a day next month for mandatory racial bias training.

The announcement comes on the same day Starbucks said its CEO Kevin Johnson met with the two men, whose names have not been released. Johnson also issued an apology letter and video.

“I’ve spent the last few days in Philadelphia with my leadership team listening to the community, learning what we did wrong and the steps we need to take to fix it,” Starbucks CEO Kevin Johnson said in the statement.

We apologize to the two individuals and our customers for what took place at our Philadelphia store on Thursday. pic.twitter.com/suUsytXHks

— Starbucks Coffee (@Starbucks) April 14, 2018
“While this is not limited to Starbucks, we’re committed to being a part of the solution. Closing our stores for racial bias training is just one step in a journey that ..............

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:16 pm 
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On page one of this thread I said, "They are one of the least discriminatory companies I know of. One of the best."

I rest my case. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:20 pm 
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On page one of this thread I said, "They are one of the least discriminatory companies I know of. One of the best."

I rest my case. :)


Any co. can have "racial bias education". If it had happened to you, which is highly unlikely, you'd want something more than "racial bias education," you might want redress.

I'm not grateful for it.

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