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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 4:15 pm 
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https://www.democracynow.org/2018/5/10/ ... ed_way_for

Jeremy Scahill: Obama Paved Way for Haspel to Head CIA by Failing to Hold Torturers Accountable

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So, the fact that—this hearing was a farce, where, unfortunately, some of the Democrats and all of the Republicans engaged in a collective endorsement of what is, in my view, quite clearly, a CIA propaganda operation. It’s a coup of sorts to have someone like Gina Haspel, who has been involved with destroying evidence, torture, kidnapping, and refuses—refuses—to denounce any of it. I mean, it’s incredible that 17 years after 9/11 and—and, I’m sorry, Obama plays a huge role in how this happened. The moment Obama said, “We need to look forward, not backward,” was the moment that Gina Haspel was able to become a viable candidate for CIA. And, I mean, this is a very, very serious development and the result of a probably extralegal propaganda campaign and an operation aimed at the domestic American public.


Haspel says she doesn't believe Trump would ask her to waterboard. Huh? What a farce.

And she would not say that waterboarding was immoral. 17 years of discourse has come to this. It was a crime. It should have been prosecuted. Instead of jail, she becomes head of CIA.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:08 pm 
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The American people paved the way for Haspel. They do not give a shit about the concept of torture because their morality says that America can do whatever it wants because it is America.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:57 pm 
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The American people paved the way for Haspel. They do not give a shit about the concept of torture because their morality says that America can do whatever it wants because it is America.

...exceptional merica.

exceptional merica with no forests no water few driveable roads.

we've got some rich fucks who do whatever they want tho...any takers??

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Who are these...flag-sucking halfwits fleeced fooled by stupid little rich kids They speak for all that is cruel stupid
They are racists hate mongers I piss down the throats of these Nazis Im too old to worry whether they like it Fuck them.
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:14 pm 
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https://www.democracynow.org/2018/5/10/jeremy_scahill_obama_paved_way_for

Jeremy Scahill: Obama Paved Way for Haspel to Head CIA by Failing to Hold Torturers Accountable



Haspel says she doesn't believe Trump would ask her to waterboard. Huh? What a farce.

And she would not say that waterboarding was immoral. 17 years of discourse has come to this. It was a crime. It should have been prosecuted. Instead of jail, she becomes head of CIA.


Oh' fuck that, Obama was one hell of a President for all Americans. This opening post is smeary useless butt hurt Fox. I've got a tiny violin for useless crap like this. :(


Sad!


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 9:42 pm 
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The American people paved the way for Haspel. They do not give a shit about the concept of torture because their morality says that America can do whatever it wants because it is America.

Americans overwhelmingly voted for Obama.

What do you say to that?

People were disappointed there was no accountability. People around here still think the Iraq War was a popular war. Don't blame the politicians.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 9:44 pm 
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Americans overwhelmingly voted for Obama.

What do you say to that?

People were disappointed there was no accountability. People around here still think the Iraq War was a popular war. Don't blame the politicians.


Which people around here think that?

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 9:51 pm 
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Americans overwhelmingly voted for Obama.

What do you say to that?

People were disappointed there was no accountability. People around here still think the Iraq War was a popular war. Don't blame the politicians.


People weren't disappointed, you were disappointed.

I was super duper pleased by Obama from start to finish. :D

I don't know anyone here or there who thinks the Iraq War was a popular war. Even conservatives on conservative boards are now complaining about the Iraq war.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 9:57 pm 
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Oh' fuck that, Obama was one hell of a President for all Americans. This opening post is smeary useless butt hurt Fox. I've got a tiny violin for useless crap like this. :(


Sad!

If you look back and see what a critical mistake that was then you would have a good reason to be sad.

It is about accountability. Our government employees want no accountability from the law. It was a bad error on his part, that would have tested leaders who think they are above the law.

Now they know they that they won't be held accountable. It didn't take long to find a president who would take advantage.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 10:10 pm 
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If you look back and see what a critical mistake that was then you would have a good reason to be sad.

It is about accountability. Our government employees want no accountability from the law. It was a bad error on his part, that would have tested leaders who think they are above the law.

Now they know they that they won't be held accountable. It didn't take long to find a president who would take advantage.


Which people around here do you feel still think the Iraq war was a popular war?

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 10:44 pm 
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Americans overwhelmingly voted for Obama.

What do you say to that?

People were disappointed there was no accountability. People around here still think the Iraq War was a popular war. Don't blame the politicians.

I say the indispensable nation, hyperpower bullshit is precisely that, bullshit. Nations have no morals, only interests. To claim moral high ground and then act with impunity is to show that morals are just show. I do accept that there are times when things need to be done because man is a creature that prefers power to peace and will act to gain or save power. So, when a politician fails to act in accordance with his self-proclaimed morals I am not disappointed nor surprised. Conditions on the ground change and politicians make decisions based on those changes. What does disappoint me is that man is uninterested in peace. Too many because peace doesn’t generate wealth.

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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 11:03 pm 
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If you look back and see what a critical mistake that was then you would have a good reason to be sad.

It is about accountability. Our government employees want no accountability from the law. It was a bad error on his part, that would have tested leaders who think they are above the law.

Now they know they that they won't be held accountable. It didn't take long to find a president who would take advantage.


Obama was one to understand the time worn phrase "Choose your battles wisely." He couldn't possibly fight all if the battles which could have possibly have been fought. He chose his battles wisely.


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 9:11 am 
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Considering current events, is anybody going to argue that this country is getting the government it deserves?

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:21 am 
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Americans overwhelmingly voted for Obama.


They sure did. He was 800 times better than the alternative ... in 2008 and 2012.

He pretty much ended the Bush-era enhanced interrogation/torture program (although a certain Lover didn't believe me when I pointed this out) (*), ended the war in Iraq, and while he didn't close Gitmo, reduced the number of prisoners there. I'll take that stuff.

John McCain might also have ended torture, but he was going to bomb-bomb-bomb Iran. (**)

Mitt Romney ... well, let's just say we can hope he didn't run the American economy the way he did Bain Capital.

Life is about choices. Sometimes, those of us in the real world pick the better one, without regret. Even if it wasn't perfect.

(*) That kinda matters, too.
(**) Even before he was dying, he took stances against torture, given his own history, and I'm glad to see him opposing Haspel.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 4:19 pm 
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They sure did. He was 800 times better than the alternative ... in 2008 and 2012.

He pretty much ended the Bush-era enhanced interrogation/torture program (although a certain Lover didn't believe me when I pointed this out) (*), ended the war in Iraq, and while he didn't close Gitmo, reduced the number of prisoners there. I'll take that stuff.

John McCain might also have ended torture, but he was going to bomb-bomb-bomb Iran. (**)

Mitt Romney ... well, let's just say we can hope he didn't run the American economy the way he did Bain Capital.

Life is about choices. Sometimes, those of us in the real world pick the better one, without regret. Even if it wasn't perfect.

(*) That kinda matters, too.
(**) Even before he was dying, he took stances against torture, given his own history, and I'm glad to see him opposing Haspel.

Obama's election is interesting. Black man president? Yes, I'm glad to say, Americans willingly voted for him, twice.

But other progressive values must continue to be fought.

It was you, I remember, challenging me, when I asserted that most Americans were against the Iraq war. I don't understand the reasoning, except polls showed that Americans were shifting toward approval when the war started. That, am afraid, doesn't give much argument that Americans were pro Iraq war. But, it would be easy to believe it if you watched the nooze. People are often told what they think and we are suppose to believe them.

Americans and the world were dragged, kicking and screaming into that war by lies and scare tactics. There wasn't ever a large surge in volunteers to fight, either.

You can clarify your position if you want.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 5:48 pm 
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It was you, I remember, challenging me, when I asserted that most Americans were against the Iraq war. I don't understand the reasoning, except polls showed that Americans were shifting toward approval when the war started. That, am afraid, doesn't give much argument that Americans were pro Iraq war.


No, that was me.

Your exact words were, "People around here still think the Iraq War was a popular war"

My question to you remains, WHICH people around here think that.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 6:08 pm 
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It was you, I remember, challenging me, when I asserted that most Americans were against the Iraq war. I don't understand the reasoning, except polls showed that Americans were shifting toward approval when the war started.


What I said was, Americans gradually became more and more against the war over time. It became less popular over time. That's fact. It was also true of the Vietnam War, as well.

Image

I never said the war was "popular." (Although, of course, we'd have to define what that word means. As in, had overwhelming support until 2011.)

I hope you're not implying I was an Iraq War supporter. As I made clear to Timmeh, I was not.

Actually, my main point, I think, was that Trump, who claimed he was always against the Iraq War, was a freaking liar, as always, because his opposition only really started when the war started to lose support. He was not ahead of the popular view.

Quote:
You can clarify your position if you want.


You can start by not distorting it.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:13 pm 
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What I said was, Americans gradually became more and more against the war over time. It became less popular over time. That's fact. It was also true of the Vietnam War, as well.

Image

I never said the war was "popular." (Although, of course, we'd have to define what that word means. As in, had overwhelming support until 2011.)

I hope you're not implying I was an Iraq War supporter. As I made clear to Timmeh, I was not.

Actually, my main point, I think, was that Trump, who claimed he was always against the Iraq War, was a freaking liar, as always, because his opposition only really started when the war started to lose support. He was not ahead of the popular view.



You can start by not distorting it.

I'm not distorting. The poll you are using, which is a narrow time frame, shows that the Iraq war was popular before the war. Polls are tricky and sticky. Polls are hard to find before 9-11 when Bush began pushing for another war with Iraq. If there are any reliable polls, I don't know where they are. But, I remember Bush's intentions met with a lot of resistance. A lot. Even directly after 9-11. He had to confuse 9-11 with Iraq.

The reason this is brought up in this thread is because Americans are depicted as aggressive, uncaring, warmongers.

I assert that this isn't true.

If we have laws against torture, they need to be enforced. Our government, avoids accountability. If we don't like a corrupt government, our politicians have to stand up and do the right thing and enforce laws already on the books.

You see how bad it's getting.

Sorry, if you think I am trying to distort something. I may have been wrong. The chart that you show, is a little the hard to read. It didn't show the years clearly.

Now if that is a long view of the war popularity then I find it very hard to believe. I doubt people wanted another war with Iraq before 9-11.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:05 pm 
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Polls are tricky and sticky.


Aren't they, though. Remember this?

We, of course, will never know if Bernie would have won, will we. And some people don't like polls, especially Trump.

Quote:
Let's look back and remember the past.
https://www.democracynow.org/2017/4/25/ ... staffer_on

This comes as former presidential candidate Senator Bernie Sanders has emerged as one the country’s most popular politicians. The Hill reports a Harvard-Harris poll shows 57 percent of registered voters view Sanders favorably. Out of a field of 16 Trump administration officials or congressional leaders who were included in the survey, Sanders was the only one who was viewed favorably by a majority of those polled. Sanders has drawn massive crowds at stops on his recent speaking tour with new Democratic National Committee head Tom Perez as they push to reform the Democratic Party. On Sunday, Sanders spoke to Face the Nation about how the Democratic Party needs to change.

...

You are asking me, what polls? You deny they exists? They exists, believe it and learn to accept facts.

Now, I look at a number of posts here that are trying to divide the Democratic party, which I have never tried to do.

If people, like Cornel West, want to leave the party, I couldn't blame them, because of the way Bernie is treated.

Before you get crazy, I think that most people here are "trying" to make the Democratic party successful in the coming elections, but this divisive way is a toxic solution bound to fail.

But you won't be happy until I show a poll.

http://www.thestate.com/news/databases/ ... 96342.html

It wasn't just one poll. It was nearly all of them. You shouldn't be shocked. It was in the news. People talked about it.

https://www.democracynow.org/2016/11/10 ... would_have

...

So, yes we don't know. But we couldn't have been any worse off. The Democratic Party lost its mission just the same and left the left in the rumble, a crime in my opinion.


There are evidently polls, damn polls, and... polls. :| :problem:

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:45 pm 
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I'm not distorting. The poll you are using, which is a narrow time frame, shows that the Iraq war was popular before the war. Polls are tricky and sticky. Polls are hard to find before 9-11 when Bush began pushing for another war with Iraq. If there are any reliable polls, I don't know where they are. But, I remember Bush's intentions met with a lot of resistance. A lot. Even directly after 9-11. He had to confuse 9-11 with Iraq.


That one was from Pew, BTW, and although it's not explicitly labeled, the years are clear "03" = 2003, "04" = 2004, etc.

Want a Gallup poll? I won't repost this one. Go read it.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/1633/iraq.aspx

Same trends, although there is some oscillation.

If you look at popular opinion of the Vietnam War, opposition to it increased over time. Is this so shocking what I am pointing out? It tends to be a trend in American history.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:51 pm 
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That one was from Pew, BTW, and although it's not explicitly labeled, the years are clear "03" = 2003, "04" = 2004, etc.

Want a Gallup poll? I won't repost this one. Go read it.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/1633/iraq.aspx

Same trends, although there is some oscillation.

If you look at popular opinion of the Vietnam War, opposition to it increased over time. Is this so shocking what I am pointing out? It tends to be a trend in American history.

What is confusing is that this chart doesn't show us the lead up before Iraq War 2. I have been talking about how Americans were led into the war. This chart doesn't really cover the period I was discussing. It is irrelevant what happen after the war had started. So that chart was never relevant. By the appearances, it looks like the war began with high approval by Americans. I haven't seen any data that that is true. I have looked at Wikipedia, which didn't really cover it either. Also Googled.

Yes the approval was at first kind of approved after the war started and when it turned into Occupy-Iraq if fell into disfavor.

Hey, I think we are cleared up and: Thank You!

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:22 pm 
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Searching and searching... Trying to uncover the concrete evidence, I have turned up some that is very interesting.

It is pretty self evident that if Americans were so congenial to a Iraq invasion, why was Bush trying so hard to fabricate lies? This article is a treasure.

Lie by Lie: A Timeline of How We Got Into Iraq

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... -timeline/

While most polls are directed to the immediate decision to invade in 2003, here is one from December, 2002.

THE TIMES POLL
Most Unconvinced on Iraq War
http://articles.latimes.com/2002/dec/17 ... iraqpoll17

The Iraq war looks more like a crime on the American people, than Americans egotistical hawkish nature, as I have said all along.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:42 pm 
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Searching and searching... Trying to uncover the concrete evidence, I have turned up some that is very interesting.

It is pretty self evident that if Americans were so congenial to a Iraq invasion, why was Bush trying so hard to fabricate lies? This article is a treasure.

Lie by Lie: A Timeline of How We Got Into Iraq

While most polls are directed to the immediate decision to invade in 2003, here is one from December, 2002.

THE TIMES POLL
Most Unconvinced on Iraq War
http://articles.latimes.com/2002/dec/17 ... iraqpoll17

The Iraq war looks more like a crime on the American people, than Americans egotistical hawkish nature, as I have said all along.


So in your view, which people around here think the Iraq War was a popular war?

"People around here" has got nothing to do with the polls.

I keep asking this question because it maligns the intelligence of "people around here." Which people are you talking about?

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:47 pm 
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I have said enough about who said what. I will continue to speak when I disagree. Take offense if you want.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:17 pm 
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I have said enough about who said what.


Other than to make some grand pronouncement about "people around here," and then scrambling to locate some "polls" that confirm your bias when challenged on it, you really haven't said much of anything.

Quote:
I will continue to speak when I disagree.


Hey well welcome to the club, man.

Lol you once again made an uninformed statement about "people around here" that you can't back up, because you're once again full of elitist, proggier-than-thou crap. That's a reflection on you and your own lack of credibility, no one else. Nobody "around here" thinks what you claim they do.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:45 pm 
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from that article:

The poll also found that support for a possible war appears to be weakening, with 58% saying they support a ground attack on Iraq. In an August Times poll, 64% said they would support a ground attack. Last January, after President Bush first denounced Saddam Hussein in his State of the Union address, the Times and other polls found support for military action greater than 70%. (**)

"Still, almost three-quarters of Americans approve of the way George W. Bush is handling the threat of terrorism in the country, and nearly three out of five also approve of his handling of the country's affairs," said Susan Pinkus, who directed The Times poll.

Traditionally, support is low before a president declares war, but increases after troops are in the field.

"If he actually does go to war, I suspect people will swing behind him as they did in the Gulf War," said John Mueller, an expert on war and public opinion at Ohio State University(*). "But right now, there isn't all that much enthusiasm for the war."

[snip][end]

(**) Huh. 70%, in Jan 2002. Before "weakening" to 58% in Dec. But we both have noticed the shift in March of 2003.
(*) Oddly enough, back in 2002, another person named Mueller seems to have been quite right about what would happen in 2003.

Final point: we agree that Americans are not hawkish or militaristic by nature and that the Bush admin lied. I wasn't indicating those things are in dispute.

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