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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:03 pm 
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Natalie is another issue. As an Israeli she has a particular view of who is elected. Fine. But different issue. (Personally, I think she made a big mistake, even for her beliefs by not going to the reception. She certainly isn't anti Israel nor is she boycotting Israel, but her action is now being misused by people she disagrees with. She would have had a great stage for her views. She had the opportunity to face PM Netanyahu directly, and I'm certain she could have made her point eloquently, respectfully, and visibly. But she flinched.)

Seems like close to half the people killed yesterday were Hamas and islamic Jihad (I think the Israeli and Pal numbers are fairly close). We also know that at least some of the people killed weren't directly a result of Israel, but a concerted attempt to increase the casualty numbers....which is Hamas aim in this....I dont think they really believe they can send thousands of Palestinians streaming across the border. And if the people stayed 20-30 feet back, the numbers would be almost insignificant (that is if its not your family member/friend, of course).

I'm not sure what you've read...but live ammunition has not been the first tool here. Leaflets, drones cutting down fire kites, tear gas, yes rubber bullets all are being used first. (see mardem's post about an 8 month old who, the report says, died from tear gas inhalation. Yesterday they were alleging Israelis killed the baby. Wtf were they bringing an infant there? BTW, yesterday her doctor said the infant didn't die of tear gas inhalation, but that the baby had a pre-existing medical condition. As they say, the truth is the first victim of war...who knows. ) Live bullets are being used primarily to prevent the border fence from being breached. ]If a large breach occurred I think stopping hundred/thousands of rioters crossing into Israel would likely lead to even more devastating results.


Are they rioters, though?

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:04 pm 
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Live bullets are being used primarily to prevent the border fence from being breached. If a large breach occurred I think stopping hundred/thousands of rioters crossing into Israel would likely lead to even more devastating results.


Yeah, I believe nation-states have the rights to protect their borders. Fine.

I usually don't accept lethal force being used at the U.S.-Mexico border (unless the Border Patrol agent is already being attacked with lethal force first).

I don't see why a border fence breach requires use of lethal force. Hitting that person with a rubber bullet would stop them, and send the message to others not to do it either, and the person would live (although of course, occasionally, a poorly aimed rubber bullet can ALSO kill.)

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:11 pm 
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I don't see why a border fence breach requires use of lethal force.
It wouldn't if you had normal relations between neighbors...even neighbors in conflict. You wouldn't if we were talking about one person straying over, or a refugee for economic or political reasons, or a mentally handicapped person not knowing what they are doing. Of course you know that's not the case here...and that the issue isn't one or two people straying over a border. The issue relates to a significant breach... I'm sure they'd have used a fire hydrant hose if it would have worked.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:13 pm 
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Are they rioters, though?
Yes. I'd say so. They certainly weren't there just to carry signs within sight of the border. Not even Hamas claims that.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:17 pm 
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Yes. I'd say so. They certainly weren't there just to carry signs within sight of the border. Not even Hamas claims that.


Taking for the sake of argument al 58 of the dead were "rioters," since when is it acceptable to kill rioters and send 2600 rioters to the hospital?

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:34 pm 
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Taking for the sake of argument al 58 of the dead were "rioters," since when is it acceptable to kill rioters and send 2600 rioters to the hospital?
I'm not going to minimize my sympathy/concern/whatever the appropriate term might be for those killed (the innocents and used, not Hamas/Jihad/other haters in the group) or the others injured (whatever the number.).

But, Carmen, the sad fact is that this is not the outcome of a peaceful protest. It was outcome of events prompted by people who knew perfectly well that this was likely lead to just what happened. And, conversely, we know that times Hamas called people away from the fence, things quieted down. I wish I had a better way to deal with the situation. As Zowie points out..the 'optics' are clear to everyone. The solution, apparently, is not.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:41 pm 
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Well, it's worth pointing out that Gazans, who have only had one election in the past 11 years, are quite directly f'd by Hamas. Years and years and years of desperate conditions that lead to these protests over the past couple weeks in the first place are also on Hamas and the PA, which isn't much better but doesn't even speak to Hamas and concentric circles of vice versa. :? :problem:

For our current-day part in this, it is not lost on me that EVERY Trump appointee and surrogate is both viciously antigay and anti-Muslim/Islam, as viciously antigay as Hamas is. All of them.

So ironically enough, AFAIC, all of these fascists have something in common. :problem:

Having said that, I don't accept the rightwing line that they're all Hamas or have been put up to this by Hamas, or etc. And I sure as hell am not up for rightwingers egging the US on to a war with Iran to satisfy their vindictive tastes. I know a couple liberal Zionists living in Israel and I can just imagine how hard it is for them each day. I support them. Screw rightwing cons, where ever they reside, whatever their precious, violent, destructive, antisocial beliefs.


I am not giving credit or praising Hamas, but let us also remember that Israel and the U.S. pushed for the elections and both backed groups that were more shall we say pliable than Hamas and that Hamas won by corruption, bribery and out right lying.

Neither the U.S or Israel should have involved themselves in the Elections and we see the result.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:49 pm 
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I am not giving credit or praising Hamas, but let us also remember that Israel and the U.S. pushed for the elections and both backed groups that were more shall we say pliable than Hamas and that Hamas won by corruption, bribery and out right lying.

Neither the U.S or Israel should have involved themselves in the Elections and we see the result.
No. Israel, along with the PA were quite aware of what would happen if there were elections prior to proper democratic preparation. This is another of GW's middle east fiascos that have outlasted him. Even over the better, coordinated, instincts of the parties involved.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:37 pm 
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No. Israel, along with the PA were quite aware of what would happen if there were elections prior to proper democratic preparation. This is another of GW's middle east fiascos that have outlasted him. Even over the better, coordinated, instincts of the parties involved.


Yes the U.S. Government pushed the elections, but no Israel did try to influence the outcome of the Elections, mainly because Israel knew such elections would serve the push for a two state solution, which Israel strongly opposes.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:54 am 
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I'm not going to minimize my sympathy/concern/whatever the appropriate term might be for those killed (the innocents and used, not Hamas/Jihad/other haters in the group) or the others injured (whatever the number.).

But, Carmen, the sad fact is that this is not the outcome of a peaceful protest. It was outcome of events prompted by people who knew perfectly well that this was likely lead to just what happened. And, conversely, we know that times Hamas called people away from the fence, things quieted down. I wish I had a better way to deal with the situation. As Zowie points out..the 'optics' are clear to everyone. The solution, apparently, is not.


Blah, that word, again.

This isn't about optics. It's not acceptable for a country purporting to be a democracy to kill protesters and send 2600 to the hospital.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:57 am 
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I am not giving credit or praising Hamas, but let us also remember that Israel and the U.S. pushed for the elections and both backed groups that were more shall we say pliable than Hamas and that Hamas won by corruption, bribery and out right lying.

Neither the U.S or Israel should have involved themselves in the Elections and we see the result.


Hamas are totalitarian fascist conservatives, corrupt as the day is long. Not even the PA wants to be bothered with them; not even Egypt wants to be bothered with them.

Their persona non grata status is made obvious by the rhetorical nature of this question: when's the next election?

The answer or lack thereof can't be blamed on Israel or the US, any more than Hamas can be blamed for the behavior of the IDF in this heinous, f'ed up incident.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:51 am 
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Yes the U.S. Government pushed the elections, but no Israel did try to influence the outcome of the Elections, mainly because Israel knew such elections would serve the push for a two state solution, which Israel strongly opposes.


Yeah, that's the kind of categorical statement that bugs me.

Even Netanyahu says he supports the two state solution, but ... I agree there appears to be a rhetoric/reality mismatch. Personally, I see this on both sides. They each say they are willing to resume peace talks, if the other side meets preconditions ... that they know they will have difficulty meeting.

Netanyahu says Israel will resume peace talks ... as long as the Palestinians drop some conditions prior to the negotiations. I get why they want right of return for all refugees off the table, but come on, just say you'll leave it in (then drop it in round one) so the PA/Fatah can please its hardliners and get going. Abbas says they will resume peace talks ... if the growth of every Israeli settlement (meaning not just new settlements, but new homes in settlements) drops to zero. That's not going to happen, either. In a way, I honestly view both sides as being disingenuous on the topic. "We're willing!" ... if the other side agrees to a priori terms we know they won't. This is why there's been no forward movement since Oslo.

That said, I think there are other factions and parties in Israel that would resume peace talks under less preconditions (i.e. Labour, Meretz, etc.) but .... of course ... they are not in power.

And, needless to say, I have very little faith that Jared Kushner has the knowledge and experience, let alone the perspective, to solve this problem, where others like George Mitchell failed.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:01 am 
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I don't see why a border fence breach requires use of lethal force.


I don't understand how you can say this, perfesser...when the residents on the Israeli side of the fence have been dealing with rockets launched at them, and mortar rounds lobbed at them for a quarter of a century...if not more. Hamas fighters start charging the fence...maybe we should throw water balloons at them.

Why are we continuing to deny that Israel's friendly neighbors who only want peace, continue to demand that all the last that was "stolen" from them in 1947 be given back?

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:45 am 
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I don't understand how you can say this, perfesser...when the residents on the Israeli side of the fence have been dealing with rockets launched at them, and mortar rounds lobbed at them for a quarter of a century...if not more. Hamas fighters start charging the fence...maybe we should throw water balloons at them.


Are they all Hamas fighters and militants? Even the IDF itself admits, probably not all of them - although some are.

Water balloons? Well, fire hoses were brought up, but I doubt there's hydrants nearby. As I said, rubber bullets will do, for dissuasion.

If a militant is about to hit a soldier with a molotov cocktail, I have no problem with lethal force. That's self defense.

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Why are we continuing to deny that Israel's friendly neighbors who only want peace, continue to demand that all the last that was "stolen" from them in 1947 be given back?


OK. So let's tackle this. The stated goals of the demonstration "March of Return" is for all Palestinians to return to their homes from before 1948. You and I both know that no refugee crisis in the history of the world has EVER been resolved this way. As I've said, my great grandmother had a house in Poland, who knows, maybe in some musty vault there is a deed from the late 30s, am I going to ask the Poles to give it back? We both know that will never happen.

The "Nakba" is a thorny subject. I am not a "denier". I know it happened. Causation is the issue. We could dwell on this, I've read some of the best ME historians on the topic. It looks like, yes, some were driven from their homes - but it was wartime. The Allies evacuated a number of towns in Europe to stop German advances or even save the people living there; it happens. Others fled because Arab legionnaires told them to flee their homes. BOTH THINGS ARE TRUE. The bottom line being, there has never been a refugee situation where 70 years later, all refugees and all their descendants (which would be the case at this point) are given all their original lands and property back. It has just never been done.

Here's my position. You have the right to nonviolently protest, even for demands that are unreasonable. Even if a fundamentalist RWNJ org is orchestrating the demonstrations for cynical reasons - which I believe they are. That should never be met with lethal force.

If there are people there launching explosive kites, hurling molotovs, and not behaving nonviolently, that is a different situation. But the IDF itself admits that is not true of everybody present.

There are some people trying to breach the fence with wire cutters. It may be unlawful, but that is not, in itself, from my POV, in act of violence, and should not be responded to with lethal force. Nonlethal dissuasion could suffice.

C'mon, this is Startup Nation, supposedly a high tech center of the world. Don't they have some kind of nonlethal microwave beam weapons or sonic cannons that could drive those people back?

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:03 pm 
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I think the distance involved here took out any chance of nonlethal force. The problem with directed energy weapons is that the effect drops off very quickly. I know of various sound and RF devices that have been used for crowd control, but usually in urban situations with less range and more surfaces around to bounce things.

I don't know much about less-than-lethal rounds, except that again they seem to be for use at relatively close range.

If I had an answer for Gaza I'd be banging on it here. All I know is that it's another goober bush mess, like Iraq. It started with the elections, and when Hamas came out on top they covertly armed Fatah and the whole thing blew up. When the smoke cleared, Hamas ran Gaza.

Again the lesson seems to be that no situation anywhere in the world is so bad that the US can't come in with its hammer and axe solutions and make it even worse.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:16 pm 
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http://radiofreeliberal.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23066#p406288

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:15 am 
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Donald Trump didn't even bother to show up for the little plaque shown off by Ivanka as if she's Vanna White; why would he, I guess.


:lol:

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:44 am 
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And glen is all miffed when anybody refers to Ivanka as a whore. All her adult life she has looked the other way...a whore for her daddy's money.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:28 am 
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Ivanka and her husband make money the way Hannity does, by kicking poor people into the streets.

And republicans WORSHIP them for doing it.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:09 pm 
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And glen is all miffed when anybody refers to Ivanka as a whore. All her adult life she has looked the other way...a whore for her daddy's money.


I don't get what he was all bent about. Women are all whores and golddigers to guys like him. All. Of. Us. :problem:

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:28 pm 
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I don't get what he was all bent about. Women are all whores and golddigers to guys like him. All. Of. Us. :problem:

The one thing you can count on like sheep on a sleepless night is Republican men do NOT like women, at all.

They put a few on pedestals; mom, wife, sister, but the rest they dont like or trust. I used to say they hate women, but the word hate interferes with the message and gets them all riled up.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:04 pm 
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I don't get what he was all bent about. Women are all whores and golddigers to guys like him. All. Of. Us. :problem:


I don't know, he sure has a bunch of daughters and a wife he genuinely seems to respect.

"Whores" is a word I do try to avoid using, I especially try to not apply it to women when I do fail to not use it at all.

Today I find it hard not to apply that uncouth word to the media house Business Insider. (I'll avoid exercising that obvious pun :|)

They published "A guide to Prince Harry's ex-girlfriends." Someone named Heather Taylor wrote it, that she is a she is about the only reason I managed to hold back my impulse to use that word. If it had been a guy writing that story that word would have been used for sure. And I would have taken time to have exercised that serendipitous pun too.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:44 pm 
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Are they all Hamas fighters and militants? Even the IDF itself admits, probably not all of them - although some are.


Quote:
Hamas official: 50 of the 62 Gazans killed in border violence were our members


OK...not all, just the great majority. The IDF has a long standing 90+ approval rate among the people of Israel. If I were an Israeli Jew depending on the IDF to keep me alive it would have my approval as well.

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 1:13 am 
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OK...not all, just the great majority. The IDF has a long standing 90+ approval rate among the people of Israel. If I were an Israeli Jew depending on the IDF to keep me alive it would have my approval as well.


Yeah, but as usual, Hamas can't get their act together on what it tells the press. Those 50/62 articles usually have in them a bunch of contradictory statements on the numbers from Hamas. I think at this point this is along the lines of stupid ISIS trying to take credit for every other terrorist act that happens. :problem:

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:24 am 
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Yeah, but as usual, Hamas can't get their act together on what it tells the press. Those 50/62 articles usually have in them a bunch of contradictory statements on the numbers from Hamas. I think at this point this is along the lines of stupid ISIS trying to take credit for every other terrorist act that happens. :problem:


Perhaps. But if I'm going to dismiss these reports by Hamas, I'm also going to dismiss the capricious reports from other non-Hamas Palestinians and from hysterical American liberals (with their "zionazi" and their "Israeli apartheid" bullshit) of how the IDF is murdering innocent peaceful demonstrators just for the fun of it.

They can't have it both ways, carmen. They can't be insisting that they're fine with Jews, and it's just Netanyahu and the Likud who are the bad guys. The last polling of Israeli Jews has the IDF, and it's actions in Gaza and the West Bank with a 91% approval rating of Israelis. As with any other country it's not the politicians it's the people. The politicians simply pick which people they want to pander to. And it appears Israeli politicians are happy to pander to the 91% of Israelis who support the actions of the IDF. I am not going to criticize Israeli Jews who have chosen the path they feel they need to take to protect themselves from their pacifist neighbors who only want peace. Gaza and West Bank Palestinians dismiss the two-state solution at the same rate that Israelis approve of the IDF. Palestinians want all the dirt back that the UN provided for what was left of European Jewry in 1947 and we all know they're not gonna stop launching rockets and lobbing mortar rounds into Israeli neighborhoods until they get it.

I can't remember now who it was here who recently said "the two-state solution is dead", but I not only agree with that...I say the Palestinian demand for a two-state solution is bullshit, and always has been bullshit. Palestinians will never accept a two-state solution. I don't give a shit what their two-faced, double talking representatives to the UN say about any bullshit two-state solution. There already is a two-state solution. Palestinians have control of Gaza...it's their state. They just have to stop with the rocketing, and mortaring and terrorist bullshit. Palestinians already have the areas they control and that their fucked-up leadership "manages" in the West Bank. But they don't want that. The Palestinian people obviously want what they believe is their "historical" land back. All of it...all of the dirt that is the State of Israel. And we all know good and goddamn well what happened between 1947 and 1967 to Jewish religious locations, Jewish cemeteries, Jewish related historical areas, and to Jews who were living in the West Bank prior to the partition. Did everybody forget the Arab riots and the 1947-1948 War of Independence?

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