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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:52 pm 
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:arrow: Schumer is a Jewish person from New York, who is also a puppet for the American/Israel lobby AIPAC. But that only explains his being okay with moving the Embassy to Jerusalem, it doesn't applaud his agreeing. Most preceeding Administrations agree that Jerusalem should be the capitol of Israel, but only after a peace agreement and a two-state solution could be worked out. That has not happened. It's just Trump trying to appease the white Evangelicals. I personally don't agree that Jerusalem should be the Israeli capitol, for the very reasons we are seeing playing out in the occupied territories right now. Israel is so guilty of human rights violations and atrocities, and they've never been held to account for them. They get coddled with unconditional love by the United States~!
Could you be any more offensive? Schumer is the elected senator from New York. He's in agreement with the majority of his constituency on his support of strong US-Israeli relations...as have been pretty much all NY Senators, including Clinton, Moynihan, Javitz, Kennedy. The fact is that every preceding victorious US Presidential candidate since at least B Clinton has committed to moving the embassy to Israel's capital (not in the context of a peace agreement, meaning not over Arab objections). Unlike the previous ones, Trump delivered on this.

Fact is that it doesn't matter that you agree (or I, for that matter). Jerusalem is the capitol of the country. Its that simple. Obama's ambassador to Israel (who supports the move btw) says that just about every day he drove to Jerusalem to conduct his work. The fact is that Presidential visits from the US (as well as leadership visits from other countries) have alway been based in Jerusalem and held their meetings there.

Embassies outside of Jerusalem, are for the most part a sham. No one, not even the Palestinians, think that West Jerusalem is anything but Israel and the location of Israel's capital. The US position, even under Trump, is consistent with that. Even yesterday, at the opening, there was no hint that this has any bearing on any final status discussion.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:57 pm 
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I'm not here to argue about the capital of Israel.

I'm here to argue about the wisdom of killing 58 people who could have been neutralized by less lethal means. Not to mention the young kids, journalists, and a doctor or two who got shot down in cold blood, for reasons the world will interpret as imperialist genocide even though it probably isn't.

Bad optics.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:49 pm 
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I'm not here to argue about the capital of Israel.

I'm here to argue about the wisdom of killing 58 people who could have been neutralized by less lethal means. Not to mention the young kids, journalists, and a doctor or two who got shot down in cold blood, for reasons the world will interpret as imperialist genocide even though it probably isn't.

Bad optics.
Bad optics? yeah. I guess. And that's what Hamas seems to be desiring, at any cost. But there are certainly bigger issues involved

Could the 58 (or whatever the accurate number is) have been neutralized 'by less leathal means'? Dont know. Maybe maybe not. Probably some of them. Some of the deaths were not directly related, according to some reports. On the other hand, Israel, Hamas and Islamic Jihad seem to agree that at least 24 were Hamas/Islamic Jihad people. The reality on the ground is much more complex.

Btw, I agree with you that this is less about the embassy and more about other issues, though I believe 'nakba' commemoration is only one of many converging concerns at this point and which led to the heated situation, border riots and increased violence at the border.

Hamas seems concerned now that they've pushed things out of control and seem to be walking back a bit today. But the day's not over yet.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:54 pm 
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On the one hand,

a) the embassy is opening in west Jerusalem, which any known peace settlement will leave in Israeli hands.
b) the U.S. has actually been claiming it will move its embassy to Jerusalem for decades, it's just now finally actually done it.
c) Nothing in Trump's move will prevent Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem, if that is the result of a final peace agreement.
d) the Gaza demonstrations are not entirely non-violent. (The ones in Jerusalem have been.)

Oh yeah. Have I pointed out my brother and my niece are in Israel right now? Great time to go. It was their decision.

I have cousins there, as I've said, who have been there for decades, and they're visiting.

On the other,

a) Trump did this is a typically, "don't give a fuck what the other side thinks," unilateral way, which probably wasn't best.
b) The IDF is using excessive lethal force against children at the Gaza border. Inexcusable. Natalie P and I agree on this.
c) Yes, that Jeffress creep should not have been asked to participate in the ceremony.
d) The fact that they are putting Donald's face on collectible coins now in Israel makes me vomit.
e) I still don't think Israelis should trust him further than they can throw him, and Jared K & Ivanka should not representing us. We should have actual diplomats doing that job. If we actually had a functioning State Dept./diplomatic corp.



Your opinion is the one I seek on all of this. As usual you are articulate, thorough and fair. Thanks for helping me understand, and what is even more needed now I think is an expanding conversation on something Richard Engel mentioned last night about how rump's people, rump's ambassador do NOT understand the geographics or conditions involved here as to the Palestinian people.

The "prison" like environment of the Gaza Strip? I think that is what he said. The EXTREME limitations to living there for the people, they cant do business or anything and it is like a prison, etc.

I wish more of us knew more about that but from someone like YOU who will do so accurately and fairly as I am sure like with everything this is not ALL one side's fault.


I invite CJ into this as well, I trust her on this as I do everything else.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:09 pm 
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US blocks United Nations call for independent probe into Gaza deaths

The United States blocked a United Nations (UN) Security Council statement drafted Monday that called for an independent investigation into the deaths of at least 58 Palestinians along the Israeli-Gaza border.

Monday's violence followed several weeks of mass protests in the Israeli-blockaded territory of Gaza, which is governed by militant Islamist group Hamas. The unrest coincided with the opening of the U.S. embassy in Jerusalem, a Donald Trump administration directive widely condemned by the international community.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/15/u-s-blo ... eaths.html


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:53 pm 
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Unlike the previous ones, Trump delivered on this.


Donald Trump didn't even bother to show up for the little plaque shown off by Ivanka as if she's Vanna White; why would he, I guess. The people who did show up are the nastiest brand-name white conservative Christian fascists in the country, including professional hatemongers and antisemites like Jeffress and Hagee.

I get it that conservative Jewish Zionists are so craven snd vengeful they don't even care about crawling into bed with flagrant Christian supremacists; that's basic conservatism for you. But observing so many of them make excuses for the deaths of 60 people and injuring 2600 more over the past two days is still nauseating, just the same. Can't blame Hamas for IDF behavior, not this time.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:24 pm 
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Carmen...I guess it was bound to happen...at some point, on some issue, I'd disagree with you.

Yeah, I can't figure out why he'd (well I actually do know why) he'd send people like Jeffress and Hagee. On that we agree. In fact the way he selected the entire US delegation was inappropriate (probably unprecedentedly so.) But that doesn't change the fact that he did the right thing by moving the embassy, and the previous office holders didn't, even though they said they would. It also doesn't change Trumps basic nature that he only does what he believes is in his, personal, interest.

As for "can't blame Hamas this time," I disagree. The fault lies flatly with Hamas for organizing the riots and creating the situation. What it doesn't mean is that I can be 'craven' or 'vengeful.' Or that I can't, at the same time, have sympathy for the people of Gaza while fiercely defending Israel's right to protect its border from incursion and constantly looking for a more moral way to handle oneself in such a situation.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:00 pm 
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Yeah, I can't figure out why he'd (well I actually do know why) he'd send people like Jeffress and Hagee.


Rightwing Jewish Zionists are right in bed with Christian supremacists, so why not? As much as I detest them, though, they do not deserve what Christian supremicsts have in mind for them. Nobody deserves that.

And yet, they choose to remain in bed with these people, knowing this. Then wonder why nobody respects them. :problem:

Quote:
As for "can't blame Hamas this time," I disagree. The fault lies flatly with Hamas for organizing the riots and creating the situation. What it doesn't mean is that I can be 'craven' or 'vengeful.' Or that I can't, at the same time, have sympathy for the people of Gaza while fiercely defending Israel's right to protect its border from incursion and constantly looking for a more moral way to handle oneself in such a situation.


I wasn't referring to you, though, I'm referring to the rightwing, which like all right wings are eager to watch other people murder yet other people's children, and wax rhapsodic when they think state and public policy to this end suits them. And Trump-supporting Zionists are no more or less craven or opportunist than any other bunch of freaked-out rightwingers, imo not the Jewish ones, anyway. The Christian ones are in a class of violent and dishonest, all their own.

As state actors, the IDF's behavior in killing and maiming protesters is on the IDF. It's worse than simply looking bad, celebrating a placque while this other thing is happening as the backdrop. This is just a horror show.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:21 pm 
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UN Ambassador Wish-I-Wuz-White walks out

7:05 P.M.: Nikki Haley walks out of UN Security Council session on Gaza as Palestinian envoy starts to speak

Quote:
U.S. Ambassador to the UN Nikki Haley walked out of a UN Security Council session when the Palestinian envoy, Riyad Mansour, started to speak. (Noa Landau)


I was already in the "f. her" camp as soon as her no-integrity, no-experience butt was named. She'll probably be the 2024 Republican candidate for president. :problem:

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Last edited by carmenjonze on Tue May 15, 2018 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:23 pm 
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:arrow: Schumer is a Jewish person from New York,


Crass stereotype

Quote:
who is also a puppet for the American/Israel lobby AIPAC.


Canard.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:28 pm 
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:arrow: Schumer is a Jewish person from New York,

Crass stereotype


Or worse.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:34 pm 
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The "prison" like environment of the Gaza Strip? I think that is what he said. The EXTREME limitations to living there for the people, they cant do business or anything and it is like a prison, etc.


Dunno. People are saying you can't enter or leave Gaza. Not exactly true. There are checkpoints and crossings. The northern one is controlled by Israel, the southern one by Egypt. Let's point out Egypt is also restricting (not stopping) the movement of people out of Gaza. A checkpoint does make leaving slower, but doesn't prevent it. You might wonder why. Has to do with the behavior and actions of the rulers of Gaza, and their support for terrorism

Besides those checkpoints, the rest of Gaza's border with Israel is fenced. No, the fence is not electrified. That's a lie. It is also not a stone "wall" either. Why? Because terrorists from Gaza have entered Israel via that route.

Gaza also has an airport and a seaport. Yes, you can leave Gaza and go to other countries. Or come back.

The Israeli blockade is mostly to prevent materials from entering Gaza that can be used to build terror tunnels or terrorist materials. We can debate if it's too restrictive. The blockade does NOT prevent essentials like fuel, power, food, and medicine from entering. That is NOT the goal.

Quote:
I wish more of us knew more about that but from someone like YOU who will do so accurately and fairly as I am sure like with everything this is not ALL one side's fault.


So, here's some aspects of this situation that should be discussed.

Hamas has a "martyr's fund" through which they pay families of people injured or killed during "the Great March". This seems a little odd, and almost like they are encouraging people to "martyr" themselves.

On Hitler's birthday, some of these peaceful protesters flew a kite with explosives on it and a swastika.

Image

On the one hand, these are not just peaceful protests. Molotov cocktails have been thrown. Kites bearing explosives have been sent aloft. Rocks have been thrown at soldiers. Rocks DO kill.
(I assure you none of this is Photoshop.)

That said, I do not understand why the amount of lethal force the IDF is using is necessary. They do not have to use live rounds, but have been doing so. The amount of force is excessive.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:49 pm 
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Carmen...I guess it was bound to happen...at some point, on some issue, I'd disagree with you.

Yeah, I can't figure out why he'd (well I actually do know why) he'd send people like Jeffress and Hagee. On that we agree. In fact the way he selected the entire US delegation was inappropriate (probably unprecedentedly so.) But that doesn't change the fact that he did the right thing by moving the embassy, and the previous office holders didn't, even though they said they would. It also doesn't change Trumps basic nature that he only does what he believes is in his, personal, interest.

As for "can't blame Hamas this time," I disagree. The fault lies flatly with Hamas for organizing the riots and creating the situation. What it doesn't mean is that I can be 'craven' or 'vengeful.' Or that I can't, at the same time, have sympathy for the people of Gaza while fiercely defending Israel's right to protect its border from incursion and constantly looking for a more moral way to handle oneself in such a situation.


This is pretty much where I stand. Hamas is responsible for this, as are the people who turn over political control to terrorist organizations.

Image
And these victims were fellow Palestinians.

Not much has changed with the average Palestinian on the street in the west bank and Gaza in six decades. When asked this week if Jerusalem is a Muslim, Christian, and Jewish city, the typical response is, "No, Jerusalem is a Palestinian city." In Gaza when asked what the demands are, the typical response is, "The Jews have to give back the land they took in 1947."

So who wants a two-state solution and who doesn't.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:50 pm 
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Or worse.


Yes way worse. It's a flagrant anti-Semitic slur.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:00 pm 
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Let's point out Egypt is also restricting (not stopping) the movement of people out of Gaza.


I would also like to take a moment to point out something from the history of the West Bank. In 1950 the Jordanians walked into the West Bank, annexed it, and it became part of Jordan. They told all Paletstinians living there they were citizens of Jordan, and had rights identical to all Jordanians. Was there complaining? Yes. Was there a paucity of support for Jordan? Certainly. Did terrorists rise up to take revenge on the "occupiers"? No, they did not. Jordan maintained this annexation of what they called "Trans-Jordan" until they were driven out on the Six-Day War.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:10 pm 
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I would also like to take a moment to point out something from the history of the West Bank. In 1950 the Jordanians walked into the West Bank, annexed it, and it became part of Jordan. They told all Paletstinians living there they were citizens of Jordan, and had rights identical to all Jordanians. Was there complaining? Yes. Was there a paucity of support for Jordan? Certainly. Did terrorists rise up to take revenge on the "occupiers"? No, they did not. Jordan maintained this annexation of what they called "Trans-Jordan" until they were driven out on the Six-Day War.
Actually, it was 1948 :D In addition, the Jordanians ran it as an racist state. Jordan expelled Jews from thought out the "West Bank" and "East Jerusalem" not allowing them in, even to visit, and destroyed Jewish holy sites. It wasn't until then that "East Jerusalem" became "Arab" vs "West Jerusalem" and that cities like Hebron were "judienrein and Arab."

But alas, that's the nature of war and real politik.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:15 pm 
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This is pretty much where I stand. Hamas is responsible for this, as are the people who turn over political control to terrorist organizations.

Image
And these victims were fellow Palestinians.

Not much has changed with the average Palestinian on the street in the west bank and Gaza in six decades. When asked this week if Jerusalem is a Muslim, Christian, and Jewish city, the typical response is, "No, Jerusalem is a Palestinian city." In Gaza when asked what the demands are, the typical response is, "The Jews have to give back the land they took in 1947."

So who wants a two-state solution and who doesn't.


Usually I'm among the first to smack around those genocidal religious fascists from Hamas, and point up their venal, malignant mismanagement of the Gaza Strip and subjugation of Gaza citizens. I'll also defend the IDF as an actual defense force instead of the tool of settler colonialism apartheid neoliberal security state biopolitics, or whatever :problem: , as they're so often cast by so many of our fellow liberals :problem: . Usually.

This time around, though, I'm not seeing it. It may be true that 24 of the dead were Hamas "militants." But seeing as it's rightwing propaganda outfits are carrying that story, I have a very hard time believing it. Couple that with the Fox propaganda outfit framing this, via that whackodoodle Jeanne Pirro, as fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.

The troubling thing is that those deaths of protesters could have been avoided. I know I'm thinking like a tech and people are not machines. But this could have been avoided by the people with the overwhelmingly superior fire power. If I didn't see so many rightwingers delighting in the deaths and injuries, including Hamas who no doubt think they have proven some kind of *point*, I would have a different attitude. :( Two-state is dying, and rightwing Zionists in bed with American Christian Muscle Queen Zionism are helping to kill it.

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Last edited by carmenjonze on Tue May 15, 2018 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:19 pm 
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I have looked for an explanation for why the IDF is using live rounds.

They claim it's because at that distance from the border, they can't use rubber bullets or tear gas or other "nonlethal" ammunition. Is that really so?

Dunno. On the one hand, they do have the right to stop people throwing or using explosives, and I would even argue, using wire cutters etc. on the fence.

On the other, it really is disturbing to me how easily they are deciding to use lethal force to do so.

BTW, even the IDF is admitting, while they have some of these folks ID'd as militants/terrorists ... even if true, by their own numbers ... some were not.

Yeah, as I said, it bothered Natalie Portman, and it bothers me.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:21 pm 
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45 is giving sap to RW Religious Nut Job Wing of what used to the Republican Party. BiBi gets to wave the Israeli Flag.

The Palestinians get fucked.

And as an extra added attraction 45 has destroyed any gains made by the U.S. as regard U.S./Palestinian Relations and he throws his Middle Finger at Muslims at the same time. The slow motion to war with Iran continues and 45 is a hero to RW Nut Jobs everywhere.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:26 pm 
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I have looked for an explanation for why the IDF is using live rounds.

They claim it's because at that distance from the border, they can't use rubber bullets or tear gas or other "nonlethal" ammunition. Is that really so?

Dunno. On the one hand, they do have the right to stop people throwing or using explosives, and I would even argue, using wire cutters etc. on the fence.

On the other, it really is disturbing to me how easily they are deciding to use lethal force to do so.

BTW, even the IDF is admitting, while they have some of these folks ID'd as militants/terrorists ... even if true, by their own numbers ... some were not.

Yeah, as I said, it bothered Natalie Portman, and it bothers me.


An 8-Month Old Palestinian died after inhaling CS-Gas (Tear Gas).

https://www.independent.co.uk/news//mid ... 51971.html.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:33 pm 
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No one's giving Hamas a pass. It's part of the problem. Presumably, it's why Gaza has been more or less blockaded for years now.

Still, what the world's going to see is yet another Israeli group punishment in Gaza. Hamas sucks, and its fighters don't wear uniforms, so we'll just kill everybody and let Adonai sort 'em out. I know there's more to it than that, but given the footage I saw, that's how the world's going to see it.

The subsequent actions at the UN by the US have made the problem worse. Again, bad optics. This whole incident has set whatever was left of Middle East peace back almost to the 1940s again.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:36 pm 
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Usually I'm among the first to smack around those genocidal religious fascists from Hamas, and point up their venal, malignant mismanagement of the Gaza Strip and subjugation of Gaza citizens. I'll also defend the IDF as an actual defense force instead of the tool of settler colonialism apartheid neoliberal security state biopolitics, or whatever :problem: , as they're so often cast by so many of our fellow liberals :problem: . Usually.

This time around, though, I'm not seeing it. It may be true that 24 of the dead were Hamas "militants." But seeing as it's rightwing propaganda outfits are carrying that story, I have a very hard time believing it. Couple that with the Fox propaganda outfit framing this, via that whackodoodle Jeanne Pirro, as fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.

The troubling thing is that those deaths of protesters could have been avoided. I know I'm thinking like a tech and people are not machines. But this could have been avoided by the people with the overwhelmingly superior fire power. If I didn't see so many rightwingers delighting in the deaths and injuries, including Hamas who no doubt think they have proven some kind of *point*, I would have a different attitude. :( Two-state is dying, and rightwing Zionists in bed with American Christian Muscle Queen Zionism are helping to kill it.


Applause!


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:40 pm 
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45 is giving sap to RW Religious Nut Job Wing of what used to the Republican Party. BiBi gets to wave the Israeli Flag.

The Palestinians get fucked.

And as an extra added attraction 45 has destroyed any gains made by the U.S. as regard U.S./Palestinian Relations and he throws his Middle Finger at Muslims at the same time. The slow motion to war with Iran continues and 45 is a hero to RW Nut Jobs everywhere.


Well, it's worth pointing out that Gazans, who have only had one election in the past 11 years, are quite directly f'd by Hamas. Years and years and years of desperate conditions that lead to these protests over the past couple weeks in the first place are also on Hamas and the PA, which isn't much better but doesn't even speak to Hamas and concentric circles of vice versa. :? :problem:

For our current-day part in this, it is not lost on me that EVERY Trump appointee and surrogate is both viciously antigay and anti-Muslim/Islam, as viciously antigay as Hamas is. All of them.

So ironically enough, AFAIC, all of these fascists have something in common. :problem:

Having said that, I don't accept the rightwing line that they're all Hamas or have been put up to this by Hamas, or etc. And I sure as hell am not up for rightwingers egging the US on to a war with Iran to satisfy their vindictive tastes. I know a couple liberal Zionists living in Israel and I can just imagine how hard it is for them each day. I support them. Screw rightwing cons, where ever they reside, whatever their precious, violent, destructive, antisocial beliefs.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:50 pm 
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I have looked for an explanation for why the IDF is using live rounds.

They claim it's because at that distance from the border, they can't use rubber bullets or tear gas or other "nonlethal" ammunition. Is that really so?

Dunno. On the one hand, they do have the right to stop people throwing or using explosives, and I would even argue, using wire cutters etc. on the fence.

On the other, it really is disturbing to me how easily they are deciding to use lethal force to do so.

BTW, even the IDF is admitting, while they have some of these folks ID'd as militants/terrorists ... even if true, by their own numbers ... some were not.

Yeah, as I said, it bothered Natalie Portman, and it bothers me.
Natalie is another issue. As an Israeli she has a particular view of who is elected. Fine. But different issue. (Personally, I think she made a big mistake, even for her beliefs by not going to the reception. She certainly isn't anti Israel nor is she boycotting Israel, but her action is now being misused by people she disagrees with. She would have had a great stage for her views. She had the opportunity to face PM Netanyahu directly, and I'm certain she could have made her point eloquently, respectfully, and visibly. But she flinched.)

Seems like close to half the people killed yesterday were Hamas and islamic Jihad (I think the Israeli and Pal numbers are fairly close). We also know that at least some of the people killed weren't directly a result of Israel, but a concerted attempt to increase the casualty numbers....which is Hamas aim in this....I dont think they really believe they can send thousands of Palestinians streaming across the border. And if the people stayed 20-30 feet back, the numbers would be almost insignificant (that is if its not your family member/friend, of course).

I'm not sure what you've read...but live ammunition has not been the first tool here. Leaflets, drones cutting down fire kites, tear gas, yes rubber bullets all are being used first. (see mardem's post about an 8 month old who, the report says, died from tear gas inhalation. Yesterday they were alleging Israelis killed the baby. Wtf were they bringing an infant there? BTW, yesterday her doctor said the infant didn't die of tear gas inhalation, but that the baby had a pre-existing medical condition. As they say, the truth is the first victim of war...who knows. ) Live bullets are being used primarily to prevent the border fence from being breached. If a large breach occurred I think stopping hundred/thousands of rioters crossing into Israel would likely lead to even more devastating results.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:58 pm 
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Applause!


I hope you're not making fun of me? :(

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