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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:15 pm 
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two of them would destroy our nation.

1] So called free college. While it would not destroy our nation it is definitely something we can't afford. as for the meme's about different nations who have such programs. Once you get into the details it is painfully obvious they are not doing it in a way we could or would do it here.

In 2014-2015 536 billion was spent in the USA on college tuition. Times 4 years would total 2.1 trillion. Which is the cost per year once the program was put into effect for 4 years. Plus increases in tuition fees of course. On top of that add the cost it takes for books and board and it becomes obvious it is a great idea we can't afford.

2] Bernie, Hartmann and Richard Wolff have been talking a lot lately about guaranteed Gov't jobs. $15 an hour plus medical benefits 100% paid. This along with number 3 is something we can't only not afford but would lead to the end of our country.

They also want to include a guaranteed income for those who can't or aren't willing to take the Gov't job.

Now there are currently around 18 million people unemployed or under employed in the USA. So at $60,000 per person, wages+benefits+support staff we would be looking at about 1.1 trillion a year to pay for the program.

Which of course would cause runaway inflation as companies would have to offer over $20 an hour plus benefits to compete with a gov't job. One you couldn't be denied, would have to pass no drug screen for, one you could show up and leave when you wanted and could tell your super to fuck off he they gave you a task you didn't want to do.

3] Hartmann and Wolff have been discussing a law whereby before a company could relocate the current employees would be given the option to buy the company and then operate it as a collective. The money to buy the company would come from the federal gov't through a guaranteed loan program.

Then the employees would mange the company, set wages, benefits and work rules through a democratic collective where every employee would have an equal voice.

Something that not only wouldn't work and we couldn't afford but, is so stupid I can't imagine any person here supporting.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:21 pm 
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short translation: glen is telling us that capitalism is now a failed system. It doesn't work unless the taxpayer fund the businesses. Capitalists will no longer invest, buy land, pay to construct their factory or store, and pay workers. That must be done by the taxpayer.

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aragorn 4/20/17:

Admittedly, I did not come up with the phrase, but I'm nearly positive that I got it from one of my white nationalist buddies. It just fits so well.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:22 pm 
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A correction "free tuition" would be 536 billion a year based on 2014-15 numbers not 2 trillion.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:24 pm 
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short translation: glen is telling us that capitalism is now a failed system. It doesn't work unless the taxpayer fund the businesses. Capitalists will no longer invest, buy land, pay to construct their factory or store, and pay workers. That must be done by the taxpayer.


No just the opposite, The three things listed are prime examples of social programs with the second and third being pretty much pure socialism. But it appears you don't want to discuss these items as you know you are totally wrong about them.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:24 pm 
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A correction "free tuition" would be 536 billion a year based on 2014-15 numbers not 2 trillion.

Translation: "I've got nothin'!"

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aragorn 4/20/17:

Admittedly, I did not come up with the phrase, but I'm nearly positive that I got it from one of my white nationalist buddies. It just fits so well.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:34 pm 
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Translation: "I've got nothin'!"


Yes you obviously have nothing otherwise you would be burying me. The error I made was taking the 536 billion times 4. Thinking of a 4 year degree. But, I realized and corrected that error.

What this thread is demonstrating is that while the left has great ideas and in their heart are sincere, once you start running the numbers most of their programs simply do not work.

Now there are exceptions. take healthcare, it would collectively cost us nothing more than we are paying now and probably less.

As for making college available there is a simple solution. Gov't loans that would be made apart of the SSI administration and paid back with interest [I suggest 1% over prime] over 25 to 40 years of the persons working life. Now that would not only make college attainable it would also make a profit which would strengthen SSI.

as for numbers two and three they stand alone as incredibly unworkable and in the case of number 3 plain ignorant.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:40 pm 
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1] This would be true if everyone was sent to a four-year university for nothing. But that's not the idea. Even if it was, it would undoubtedly have the kind of strings attached that one sees in other countries. It would probably only work for certain majors, and then certain kinds of contributions would be expected of graduates in return, like working for a defense contractor, or non-combatant service, or whatever. But that's not the idea. The idea is to return community college to the community. Those who want something more do it on their own dime.

Those who want more could avail themselves of a student loan program that actually works. There's the germ of a good idea in what you mentioned. We go wrong when we insist that (as usual) someone makes a profit for themselves at every step.

2] Guaranteed government jobs are cheaper in the long run than any of the alternatives I can think of, but this would take too long to explain well, and you wouldn't believe me anyway because your mind has been fried by too many rants on the media.

Again, it's not a job for everyone just to get them a job. It's not make-work. It's not assigning everyone somewhere and throwing them in jail if they don't do it. That's what the USSR did, and it wasn't very popular.

They'd be like the student jobs I mentioned in a different post, and there wouldn't be all that many of them. It worked, sort of, in the New Deal. Some people who wanted to work did, and many infrastructure projects got built that way. But now that would be considered socialism by the propagandized masses.

3] We have a problem with companies fleeing offshore. I agree that simply requiring a yes-no vote on whether they should be collectives is probably unworkable. Most of the lefties that favor this sort of thing are anarcho-syndicalists, and I haven't seen any of those on this board. I had an anarcho-syndicalist phase, but after seeing the kind of interpersonal nonsense that plagues most collectives, I decided that it gave too many people too much power too fast. It works, sort of, to run a political group, but it would not be an efficient way to run large companies.

We had an efficient way to run large companies. It involved unions and collective bargaining. It wasn't perfect, and it put labor and management in adversarial positions that limited fraternization. But it worked very nicely for a long time, before we allowed the money people to kill it.

I would support some other idea where companies would compensate the economy for their disruptive moves. It's very embryonic, and it would get shredded if I laid it out here, but I do think that some disruption mitigation in general would make this a much happier country.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:44 pm 
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Yes you obviously have nothing otherwise you would be burying me. The error I made was taking the 536 billion times 4. Thinking of a 4 year degree. But, I realized and corrected that error.

What this thread is demonstrating is that while the left has great ideas and in their heart are sincere, once you start running the numbers most of their programs simply do not work.

Now there are exceptions. take healthcare, it would collectively cost us nothing more than we are paying now and probably less.

As for making college available there is a simple solution. Gov't loans that would be made apart of the SSI administration and paid back with interest [I suggest 1% over prime] over 25 to 40 years of the persons working life. Now that would not only make college attainable it would also make a profit which would strengthen SSI.

as for numbers two and three they stand alone as incredibly unworkable and in the case of number 3 plain ignorant.

Yeah, glen, the only people that deserves something for free are the rich.

What we need is a full post-secondary educational system that is low or no cost. We need new apprenticeship programs. And that's not ME saying that, it's the corporations saying there's a skills gap. Not everyone is college materials.

But instead of giving away taxpayer money to the rich with promises of jobs, invest in your national workforce. That's a true investment that will pay true dividends.

As far as Bernie's ideas - there will come a time, with computerization and robotization, when there are going to be too many people and not enough jobs. When a McDonald's can do everything without employees. When a truck no longer needs a driver. Now, we can argue about how many years into the future that is, but the reality is, it's coming.

And the question becomes how do we handle that as a society. Do we do what you want, and tell everyone who can't get a job to shut the fuck up and die already?

Let me ask you, glen - as you have no answers - you hate liberals. When FDR was elected, there were no jobs. Unemployment was over 25%. He handled it with programs like the CCC and the WPA.

Of course, you hate that idea as a conservative. How would you have solved the problems FDR faced?

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aragorn 4/20/17:

Admittedly, I did not come up with the phrase, but I'm nearly positive that I got it from one of my white nationalist buddies. It just fits so well.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:48 pm 
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I like your idea of compensation for moving off shore, maybe an exit fee or even better an added tariff on products that were moved from here to off shore.

The 536 bill what we pay now in 4 year tuition. I forgot to add on the tech schools, without looking that would surely add 100's of billions to that charge.

So what would be wrong with loaning the money at very low rates then collecting it back through payroll deduction for 30 or more years, unless of course the borrower paid it off early? It seems to me everyone would have equal access to the money. U's wouldn't have to change admission rules and the Van Wilder's of the world wouldn't be taking up valuable classroom space.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:50 pm 
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Free community college (free being relative) and a working NON-PROFIT student loan program for everyone else that isn't just another racket for the banks.

----------

Agreed that trickle-down economics is a sham, and its implementation has had a truly disastrous effect that's done all the bad stuff and none of the good stuff we were promised. It's based on bad data, wishful thinking, and outright lies. The sooner we get over it, the sooner the country gets back on its feet.

In fact, I might go so far as to call it The Great Conservative Con Game.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:55 pm 
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Think of what we could do if we just decided to rebuild our infrastructure.

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aragorn 4/20/17:

Admittedly, I did not come up with the phrase, but I'm nearly positive that I got it from one of my white nationalist buddies. It just fits so well.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:58 pm 
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Yeah, glen, the only people that deserves something for free are the rich.

What we need is a full post-secondary educational system that is low or no cost. We need new apprenticeship programs. And that's not ME saying that, it's the corporations saying there's a skills gap. Not everyone is college materials.

But instead of giving away taxpayer money to the rich with promises of jobs, invest in your national workforce. That's a true investment that will pay true dividends.

As far as Bernie's ideas - there will come a time, with computerization and robotization, when there are going to be too many people and not enough jobs. When a McDonald's can do everything without employees. When a truck no longer needs a driver. Now, we can argue about how many years into the future that is, but the reality is, it's coming.

And the question becomes how do we handle that as a society. Do we do what you want, and tell everyone who can't get a job to shut the fuck up and die already?

Let me ask you, glen - as you have no answers - you hate liberals. When FDR was elected, there were no jobs. Unemployment was over 25%. He handled it with programs like the CCC and the WPA.

Of course, you hate that idea as a conservative. How would you have solved the problems FDR faced?


The times FDR lived are 180 degrees different from today, so that argument is just foolish. As for the CCC and WPA there is no way we could operate those programs today in the manner or for the relative cost they were done for back then. Also, and once again we don't have 25% unemployment and the times today are nothing like they were then. Now if we ever do get 25% unemployment you will have a valid argument.

Yes, McD's type jobs are on the way out. But, those were meant to be entry level high school type jobs to begin with and not long term careers. As for other jobs that technology will faze out over time. There has always been other jobs that didn't exist to come along to replace those positions.

My grandpa had a slow brother who was born in the late 1800's. They taught him how to tend horses. Because in the early 1900's they knew there would always be a job for a man who could tend horses. Later of course they had to teach him other skills.

So all those jobs tending horses will be replaced by something else. Don't forget today unemployment is under 4%.

But, all that being said lets say we had guaranteed Gov't jobs and free college. How would you raise the over 1,5 to 2.0 trillion it would take to fund those programs?

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:00 pm 
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Think of what we could do if we just decided to rebuild our infrastructure.


We should be doing just that. But, we don't need a Gov't jobs program. We need lawmakers not afraid to raise the federal gas tax enough to pay for the program. Then let private enterprise bid for the jobs.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:01 pm 
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College is way overpriced. Make it highly affordable under strict conditions, and you get ambitious and talented folks that deliver back to the economy.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:02 pm 
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We should be doing just that. But, we don't need a Gov't jobs program. We need lawmakers not afraid to raise the federal gas tax enough to pay for the program. Then let private enterprise bid for the jobs.

Ah, yes, so they could then use illegal labor to bust the unions.

Because big business HAS to get THEIR cut from the taxpayer-funded windfall!

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aragorn 4/20/17:

Admittedly, I did not come up with the phrase, but I'm nearly positive that I got it from one of my white nationalist buddies. It just fits so well.


Last edited by gounion on Mon May 14, 2018 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:02 pm 
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Free community college (free being relative) and a working NON-PROFIT student loan program for everyone else that isn't just another racket for the banks.

----------

Agreed that trickle-down economics is a sham, and its implementation has had a truly disastrous effect that's done all the bad stuff and none of the good stuff we were promised. It's based on bad data, wishful thinking, and outright lies. The sooner we get over it, the sooner the country gets back on its feet.

In fact, I might go so far as to call it The Great Conservative Con Game.



Why non-profit? Why not low profit with the Gov't being the recipient of those small profits? Prime plus 1%.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:04 pm 
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Ah, yes, so they could then use illegal labor to bust the unions.

Because big business HAS to get THEIR cut from the taxpayer-funded windfall!



We have prevailing wage laws in place. Plus it would seem if we had a Gov't department of road building that would be another nail in the coffin of private unions. as well as private enterprise as construction companies which build roads and bridges would be put out of work by the Gov't take over of that industry.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:05 pm 
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The times FDR lived are 180 degrees different from today, so that argument is just foolish. As for the CCC and WPA there is no way we could operate those programs today in the manner or for the relative cost they were done for back then. Also, and once again we don't have 25% unemployment and the times today are nothing like they were then. Now if we ever do get 25% unemployment you will have a valid argument.

Yes, McD's type jobs are on the way out. But, those were meant to be entry level high school type jobs to begin with and not long term careers. As for other jobs that technology will faze out over time. There has always been other jobs that didn't exist to come along to replace those positions.

My grandpa had a slow brother who was born in the late 1800's. They taught him how to tend horses. Because in the early 1900's they knew there would always be a job for a man who could tend horses. Later of course they had to teach him other skills.

So all those jobs tending horses will be replaced by something else. Don't forget today unemployment is under 4%.

But, all that being said lets say we had guaranteed Gov't jobs and free college. How would you raise the over 1,5 to 2.0 trillion it would take to fund those programs?

So, magically, jobs will appear. This is the right-wing line when they are asked to think instead of repeating talking points.

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aragorn 4/20/17:

Admittedly, I did not come up with the phrase, but I'm nearly positive that I got it from one of my white nationalist buddies. It just fits so well.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:06 pm 
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College is way overpriced. Make it highly affordable under strict conditions, and you get ambitious and talented folks that deliver back to the economy.


That is very true but, putting the genie back in the bottle would be a very hard task.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:08 pm 
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Oh definitely charge interest. I'd even go subprime depending on where interest rates are. Right now with the federal funds rate below one per cent, prime +1 has its merits. Yes the interest goes back into the program. It's paying it forward, and only post-modern pseudo-conservatives don't like to do that.

Far as jobs go, it wouldn't be all like the WPA, which was a depression measure, though yes, a little of that kind of thing wouldn't kill us. I don't see how we could do it without the participation of private industry, so ideas are needed to give them incentive to participate. Perhaps restore some of the tax breaks for that kind of thing. You know, the ones that your side likes to call socialism.

College costs are indeed somewhat out of line right now. It's a very labor-intensive institution. We need for people to use their imaginations, and come up with ideas even if some guy ranting on an AM talk show says it's socialism.

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Last edited by ZoWie on Mon May 14, 2018 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:08 pm 
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So, magically, jobs will appear. This is the right-wing line when they are asked to think instead of repeating talking points.


Not magically but it is a fact the jobs of yesterday have always been replaced with the jobs of today. In 100 or even 50 years there will be jobs and industries we never even imagined today.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:11 pm 
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Oh definitely charge interest. I'd even go subprime depending on where interest rates are. Right now with the federal funds rate below one per cent, prime +1 has its merits. Yes the interest goes back into the program. It's paying it forward, and only post-modern pseudo-conservatives don't like to do that.

Private companies would hire the workers and run a profit, just like now. Perhaps restore some of the tax breaks for that kind of thing that your side likes to call socialism.

College costs are indeed somewhat out of line right now. It's a very labor-intensive institution. We need for people to use their imaginations, and come up with ideas even if some guy ranting on an AM talk show says it's socialism.


It seems to me there are many simple solutions to so many problems and our elected leaders would rather have campaign issues than solutions. I mean other than a few on the fringes who could be against a program of guaranteed tuition for every qualified student. That was guaranteed to not only pay for itself but turn a small profit.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:14 pm 
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That is very true but, putting the genie back in the bottle would be a very hard task.

What is a hard task is convincing companies that they can invest in their own companies, instead of having the taxpayer do it for them.

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aragorn 4/20/17:

Admittedly, I did not come up with the phrase, but I'm nearly positive that I got it from one of my white nationalist buddies. It just fits so well.


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:15 pm 
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But too many people have had their minds crammed into wee little spaces by the media owned by the money people, and nobody wants to talk about solutions. They just want to act like assholes and scare people they don't like.

I submit that the first phase of any real solution is to restore fair access to media channels and restart something even vaguely resembling a working political process.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:19 pm 
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Take the money out of the political system. All of it. Not one dime at all to a politician. You can't buy them a cup of coffee. Have publicly-funded campaigns. Think of the savings to the nation. Hell, with the money they save buying politicians, they could pay for their OWN factories!

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aragorn 4/20/17:

Admittedly, I did not come up with the phrase, but I'm nearly positive that I got it from one of my white nationalist buddies. It just fits so well.


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