RadioFreeLiberal.com

Smart Voices, Be Heard
It is currently Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:55 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 147 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:47 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:24 pm
Posts: 17348
two of them would destroy our nation.

1] So called free college. While it would not destroy our nation it is definitely something we can't afford.


:problem:

Just call it "war". Then certain types will find all the cash in the world for it. :problem:

Quote:
In 2014-2015 536 billion was spent in the USA on college tuition. Times 4 years would total 2.1 trillion.


Source?

You know there's a difference between tuition and fees at Bennington and tuition and fees at State U. or City College, no?

You're aware that that dumb bigot Betsy DeVos has dissolved the office that investigates for-profit higher education fraud?
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/05/13/b ... leges.html

And that the dumb bigot awarded student debt collection contracts to a firm she was invested in herself?
http://thehill.com/homenews/administrat ... collection

And that teachers pay out of their own pockets for school supplies?

You know we're aware cons think public money for private schools is a good idea?

I think conservatives are the least qualified people on earth to be determining what we can afford.

_________________


Stop calling the cops on us.



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:18 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:10 pm
Posts: 17373
Location: The blue parts of the map
Free college does not change admission standards in the least. If you qualify, you go there and get your tuition subsidized. If you don't, you go somewhere else and get your tuition subsidized. I would imagine it would cause people to question the rationale for in-state preference by state-supported universities, but even that's for the courts to decide.

I don't mind paying a few bucks more so that students won't come out burdened with debt that weighs the whole economy down. I only mind paying a few bucks more when most or all of the benefit goes to a few thousand people who already possess something like 43% of the planet's wealth.

This is kind of an irrelevant discussion, because I can't see the Randian States of America paying for college any time in our lifetimes.

It's only about demolishing whatever arguments glen heard on the AM radio. Won't destroy the country. Won't force top universities to take D students. Won't bring in socialism. Won't create masses of short people in little black robes with pointy hats, all carrying silly little round black bombs.

On alternatives to the kind of capitalism where the product is the company itself, and everything's for sale....... isn't one of the airlines already essentially owned by its employees?

I wasn't saying I was against employee-owned companies. I was noting that the idea of a collective, where everyone has an equal say in all matters of governance, leads to a lot of meetings which don't do anything because anyone who's not a happy camper for any personal reason can stop everything dead. It would work, and quite nicely, if people were altruistic and all participated enthusiastically in creating vibrant and responsible institutions... but people aren't like that.

_________________
We used to hang our traitors. Now we elect them to lead us.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:14 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:06 pm
Posts: 12839
#3. This is actually a viable business model. The employee owned business, and there are viable examples in the US. Gore-Tex. Winco in the Northeast, and Publix in the Southwest.

As a matter of fact, Publix is the largest employee owned business in the world. They have billions of dollars in cash, and are continually expanding. They have plenty of millionaire employees. Their profit margin is larger than competitor grocery chains. Every employee gets on average 8.5% of their salary free every year in their Employee Stock Ownership Plan. They can buy more shares through their 401K. They can also buy shares outside of any plan. Those shares have grown on average about 15% annually over the past 45 years. Plus they give out dividends. So, through the ESOP, and 401K those dividends are reinvested in more shares, and therefore gain exponentially. People who do the same in their own ESPP shares get growth as well. Publix has made the Forbes 100 top companies to work for the past 21 years, every year since Forbes started making the list.

http://reviews.greatplacetowork.com/publix-super-markets-inc

http://fortune.com/publix-best-companies/




Winco, as gounion mentioned, has the same positive results.

An added benefit of an employee-owned company is the company's objective isn't to stockholders but to their employee-owners who share in the profits.

_________________
When you vote Left you vote right.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:41 pm 
Online
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:53 am
Posts: 13226
Image

_________________
I dont criticize other liberals, even when I disagree with them. United fronts work better! But that is just me.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:29 pm 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:29 am
Posts: 3718
glenfs didn't need collage to throw his piss bottles all over america, so you don't need collage either.

_________________
Sent from Majesty's iPhone using Forum Runner

Why would someone born in Hawaii have a CT SSI number?


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:33 pm 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:29 am
Posts: 3718

No just the opposite, The three things listed are prime examples of social programs with the second and third being pretty much pure socialism. But it appears you don't want to discuss these items as you know you are totally wrong about them.


“Of the people, by the people, for the people”
Embrace it or move

_________________
Sent from Majesty's iPhone using Forum Runner

Why would someone born in Hawaii have a CT SSI number?


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:40 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:36 pm
Posts: 250
Take the money out of the political system. All of it. Not one dime at all to a politician. You can't buy them a cup of coffee. Have publicly-funded campaigns. Think of the savings to the nation. Hell, with the money they save buying politicians, they could pay for their OWN factories!


Probably gonna need an amendment to get that done.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:52 pm 
Online
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 36373

Probably gonna need an amendment to get that done.

Could be, since the right wing judges try to tell us money is speech under the Constitution. But the right WANTS that corruption.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:01 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:36 pm
Posts: 250
BTW, Employee ownership is something that needs to be further explored. glen tells us it would be a disaster to have the employees running things.

Then how does glen explain Winco? Winco has been employee owned for for over 30 years, and Walmart is scared shitless of them. And it's highly successful. Forbes:

In Corvallis, Oregon, a couple miles north of the Oregon State University campus, sits a WinCo Foods discount supermarket and, unless you’re in need of groceries, you might drive by without noticing it. I assure you, however, it’s an extraordinary building, a laboratory of capitalism worthy of pilgrimages by the world’s great business schools.

Inside the store labor 130 employees of WinCo – grocery clerks, shelf stockers, display builders, bakery workers – and their combined retirement savings roughly comes to an astounding $100 million. And that figure is growing rapidly, such that in a few years the average wealth of these employees could easily exceed $1 million. Quite a few individual workers already have account balances above that level.

Outside of Wall Street and Silicon Valley, the WinCo store represents an unusually concentrated – and unlikely -- grouping of millionaires. The secret to their wealth is employee ownership. Since 1985, WinCo, which operates 98 stores across eight states from its headquarters in Boise BZ +0%, Idaho, has been employee owned, with an Employee Stock Ownership Plan, or ESOP, as the vehicle for its workers’ main retirement savings. (WinCo also has a 401k and about 70% of workers participate.)

The company is by all indications well managed, grows steadily and provides its clientele of families on a budget a combination of low prices, wide selection and efficient and friendly service. Sales for fiscal 2015 are expected at about $6 billion. Same store sales growth and expansion into new markets have propelled WinCo’s profits and thus its ESOP stock past competitors and, indeed, past most growth stocks. The shares have risen at a compounded annual rate of about 20% since 1986. Purchased for $10 million from its former owners in 1985, company workers today hold shares valued at close to $3 billion.


The one problem with this type of ESOP is if the company goes south the stock is worthless. And it does happen. Some employee owned companies are starting to move to 401k profit sharing systems where instead of buying company stock that isn't publicly traded the company allocates the profit sharing to an employee owned and diversified fund that is protected from bankruptcy.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:02 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:36 pm
Posts: 250
Could be, since the right wing judges try to tell us money is speech under the Constitution. But the right WANTS that corruption.


Right wing judges are correct - money is speech - always has been.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:11 pm 
Online
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:07 am
Posts: 10399

Right wing judges are correct - money is speech - always has been.


I think money is one of many forms of status, status makes speech go further.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:12 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:27 pm
Posts: 8182
Location: miles from nowhere

Right wing judges are correct - money is speech - always has been.

No, they are not correct. Money is the primary method of graft and corruption. The decision that contained the imbecilic idea that there is no quid pro quo was stupid and naive on its face. The monies spent are investments at best and corruption at worst. To think that the investor is not looking for a return when he spends money on political causes, be they progressive or reactionary, is to put a blindfold over the evidence of the exchange. Your purchase of a car or a house or a piece property is not speech, it is an investment. So it is with political donations.

So you favor one dollar, one vote?

_________________
bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

The new motto of the USA: Unum de multis. Out of one, many.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:36 pm 
Offline
Member

Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:36 pm
Posts: 250
I favor free speech. Money helps build the means of expression.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:07 am 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:41 pm
Posts: 2506
Location: Oregon
Nice double-talk.

_________________
"If you think that Mexico is only sending drug dealers and rapists, but also worry that Mexicans are going to take your job... What the f**k do you do for a living?" -Random Twitter post seen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:28 am 
Online
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:07 am
Posts: 10399
Nice double-talk.


Quote:
My friends, I had not intended to discuss this controversial subject at this particular time. However, I want you to know that I do not shun controversy. On the contrary, I will take a stand on any issue at any time, regardless of how fraught with controversy it might be. You have asked me how I feel about whiskey. All right, here is how I feel about whiskey:

If when you say whiskey you mean the devil's brew, the poison scourge, the bloody monster, that defiles innocence, dethrones reason, destroys the home, creates misery and poverty, yea, literally takes the bread from the mouths of little children; if you mean the evil drink that topples the Christian man and woman from the pinnacle of righteous, gracious living into the bottomless pit of degradation, and despair, and shame and helplessness, and hopelessness, then certainly I am against it.

But, if when you say whiskey you mean the oil of conversation, the philosophic wine, the ale that is consumed when good fellows get together, that puts a song in their hearts and laughter on their lips, and the warm glow of contentment in their eyes; if you mean Christmas cheer; if you mean the stimulating drink that puts the spring in the old gentleman's step on a frosty, crispy morning; if you mean the drink which enables a man to magnify his joy, and his happiness, and to forget, if only for a little while, life's great tragedies, and heartaches, and sorrows; if you mean that drink, the sale of which pours into our treasuries untold millions of dollars, which are used to provide tender care for our little crippled children, our blind, our deaf, our dumb, our pitiful aged and infirm; to build highways and hospitals and schools, then certainly I am for it.

This is my stand. I will not retreat from it. I will not compromise.


--Noah S. "Soggy" Sweat, Jr., 1952


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:46 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:24 pm
Posts: 17348
I favor free speech. Money helps build the means of expression.


Sure you do. Because free speech isn't free. Right?

_________________


Stop calling the cops on us.



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:39 am 
Online
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 36373

Right wing judges are correct - money is speech - always has been.

I know that conservatives, who worship money, believe that. They believe that wealth makes you superior, and is all that matters.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:41 am 
Online
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 36373

The one problem with this type of ESOP is if the company goes south the stock is worthless. And it does happen. Some employee owned companies are starting to move to 401k profit sharing systems where instead of buying company stock that isn't publicly traded the company allocates the profit sharing to an employee owned and diversified fund that is protected from bankruptcy.

That would be the problem with all stock, wouldn't it? If the company goes south, the stock is worthless. Of course, publicly-traded stock is subject to manipulation, too. The stock market today is a rigged casino game.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:56 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 11561
Location: Sunny South Florida
Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing.

Citizens United was an awful SCOTUS decision, one of their worst. (Buckley vs. Valeo was already bad, it just made it worse.) Many predicted it would lead to foreign funding flooding our elections ... say, anybody been paying attention to those 2016 Rusher stories, again?

Campaign finance reform is a lawful regulation of campaign donations to prevent corruption, not an infringement on free speech.

If we say those with the most wealth should be the most heard by government, our system is then, functionally, an oligarchy and a plutocracy. I don't want that.

I think all these things are simultaneously true and I see no contradiction in believing all of them. ;)

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:12 am 
Online
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 36373
If Librarian thinks that freedom of speech is so important, then does he believe unions should be able to get a weekly show on Fox News for free, to make their case? Or is freedom of speech suddenly not so important to him?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:37 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:10 pm
Posts: 17373
Location: The blue parts of the map
I favor free speech. Money helps build the means of expression.


Money talks, but it is still not free speech. Money is not expression. Money is a valuable consideration in exchange for goods or services. It's not talking, it's transacting.

Anyone with money can hire lobbyists, start advocacy groups, and influence politics. That's as old as politics itself. What we're talking about here is the idea that the payment (OK, "donation") itself is a means of expression.

No it isn't.

It's going to go down in history as the worst SCOTUS decision since Dred Scott, and that one (besides being morally repugnant) helped start the Civil War.

_________________
We used to hang our traitors. Now we elect them to lead us.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:04 pm 
Online
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:26 pm
Posts: 36373

Money talks, but it is still not free speech. Money is not expression. Money is a valuable consideration in exchange for goods or services. It's not talking, it's transacting.

Anyone with money can hire lobbyists, start advocacy groups, and influence politics. That's as old as politics itself. What we're talking about here is the idea that the payment (OK, "donation") itself is a means of expression.

No it isn't.

It's going to go down in history as the worst SCOTUS decision since Dred Scott, and that one (besides being morally repugnant) helped start the Civil War.

Yep, but the GOP MUST have that - the ability to outspend the Dems. If they had to play on an equal playing field, they'd be toast.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:06 pm 
Online
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:53 am
Posts: 13226
Yep, but the GOP MUST have that - the ability to outspend the Dems. If they had to play on an equal playing field, they'd be toast.

Even when they have more they lose. Like the presidential election, by millions of votes.

Know what they call the popular vote everywhere but here?











the vote

_________________
I dont criticize other liberals, even when I disagree with them. United fronts work better! But that is just me.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:12 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 17366
Yep, but the GOP MUST have that - the ability to outspend the Dems. If they had to play on an equal playing field, they'd be toast.


Can you offer any proof that in the last election cycle the amount spent by and for each party was not pretty close to an equal amount? What the left really wants to do is cut off the money spent on the GOP. Because when the money is equal or close to equal the left generally loses.

_________________
"my choice is for people like you to be deported -Ike Bana 5/13/18

"within weeks of being rid of the likes of you, rid of every fucking one of you,we would begin to see what kind of country this ought to be" Ike Bana 6/14/18


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:17 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 17366
Yep, but the GOP MUST have that - the ability to outspend the Dems. If they had to play on an equal playing field, they'd be toast.



Last election GOP spent 621 billion the DNC 543 billion. Making the ratio 53% GOP 47% DNC like I said the amount is very close. But, that is ok you keep telling your lies and I am sure the low information people will keep believing them

https://www.opensecrets.org/parties/

_________________
"my choice is for people like you to be deported -Ike Bana 5/13/18

"within weeks of being rid of the likes of you, rid of every fucking one of you,we would begin to see what kind of country this ought to be" Ike Bana 6/14/18


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 147 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group