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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:18 pm 
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Can you offer any proof that in the last election cycle the amount spent by and for each party was not pretty close to an equal amount? What the left really wants to do is cut off the money spent on the GOP. Because when the money is equal or close to equal the left generally loses.

Nope, I'm for taking ALL the money out of politics. Every thin dime. Not a penny by ANYONE, corporate or union, rich man or poor man.

So if you believe (which you don't) that Dems outspend Republicans, why wouldn't you be all for it?

Instead, it freaks you out to even think about it.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:21 pm 
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:problem:

Just call it "war". Then certain types will find all the cash in the world for it. :problem:



Source?

You know there's a difference between tuition and fees at Bennington and tuition and fees at State U. or City College, no?

You're aware that that dumb bigot Betsy DeVos has dissolved the office that investigates for-profit higher education fraud?
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/05/13/b ... leges.html

And that the dumb bigot awarded student debt collection contracts to a firm she was invested in herself?
http://thehill.com/homenews/administrat ... collection

And that teachers pay out of their own pockets for school supplies?

You know we're aware cons think public money for private schools is a good idea?

I think conservatives are the least qualified people on earth to be determining what we can afford.



That is terrible you would think that the $10,000 to $12,000 a year we spend per student would be enough to cover supplies. I guess this is proof positive that those running our schools shouldn't be doing so.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:23 pm 
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Nope, I'm for taking ALL the money out of politics. Every thin dime. Not a penny by ANYONE, corporate or union, rich man or poor man.

So if you believe (which you don't) that Dems outspend Republicans, why wouldn't you be all for it?

Instead, it freaks you out to even think about it.


That is you personally but, there is no denying that every proposal is targeting the money that primarily goes to the GOP.

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"my choice is for people like you to be deported -Ike Bana 5/13/18

"within weeks of being rid of the likes of you, rid of every fucking one of you,we would begin to see what kind of country this ought to be" Ike Bana 6/14/18


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:24 pm 
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That is terrible you would think that the $10,000 to $12,000 a year we spend per student would be enough to cover supplies. I guess this is proof positive that those running our schools shouldn't be doing so.

Or maybe it's proof positive that YOU shouldn't be running schools, because you probably don't have a clue as to how much money it takes to run a school.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:25 pm 
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That is you personally but, there is no denying that every proposal is targeting the money that primarily goes to the GOP.

I don't know of any such proposals. You're whipping a straw man.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:39 pm 
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Can't speak for anybody else, but I favor campaign finance reforms that would apply to all donors equally - individuals, NGOs/nonprofits/lobbies, corporations, labor unions, and all organizations.

Yeah, fair rules for everybody. Who woulda thought?

Most of the campaign finance rules WERE written that way, before Citizens United nuked most of them.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:41 pm 
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Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing.

Citizens United was an awful SCOTUS decision, one of their worst. (Buckley vs. Valeo was already bad, it just made it worse.) Many predicted it would lead to foreign funding flooding our elections ... say, anybody been paying attention to those 2016 Rusher stories, again?

Campaign finance reform is a lawful regulation of campaign donations to prevent corruption, not an infringement on free speech.

If we say those with the most wealth should be the most heard by government, our system is then, functionally, an oligarchy and a plutocracy. I don't want that.

I think all these things are simultaneously true and I see no contradiction in believing all of them. ;)


It does nothing to prevent corruption. The ideological cranks idea of corruption is often the policy of their opposition. You don't like it so you call it corrupt and the inferred corruption isn't provable. That kind of preemption, regulation of campaign donations, violates the citizens rights to support their candidate.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:46 pm 
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If Librarian thinks that freedom of speech is so important, then does he believe unions should be able to get a weekly show on Fox News for free, to make their case? Or is freedom of speech suddenly not so important to him?


I didn't think you were that ignorant. Freedom of speech is the citizens protection from government interference as in "Congress shall make no law".


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:50 pm 
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Can't speak for anybody else, but I favor campaign finance reforms that would apply to all donors equally - individuals, NGOs/nonprofits/lobbies, corporations, labor unions, and all organizations.

Yeah, fair rules for everybody. Who woulda thought?

Most of the campaign finance rules WERE written that way, before Citizens United nuked most of them.


Yeah, our first amendment freedoms are slowly being restored. "Congress shall make no law".

I give it a couple of years and there will be no campaign contribution limits.

Money is speech. Just so you know people coming together can counter wealthy contributors.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:54 pm 
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I see. Freedom of speech is a right--but more so if you're rich.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:54 pm 
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Money is property.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:55 pm 
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I see. Freedom of speech is a right--but more so if you're rich.

You've got Librarian down pat. Yep, freedom is just for the rich.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:57 pm 
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It does nothing to prevent corruption. The ideological cranks idea of corruption is often the policy of their opposition. You don't like it so you call it corrupt and the inferred corruption isn't provable. That kind of preemption, regulation of campaign donations, violates the citizens rights to support their candidate.

Translation: "bribery and corruption should be legal".


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:59 pm 
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It does nothing to prevent corruption. The ideological cranks idea of corruption is often the policy of their opposition. You don't like it so you call it corrupt and the inferred corruption isn't provable. That kind of preemption, regulation of campaign donations, violates the citizens rights to support their candidate.


No, my friend, people can support any candidate they want. They can put signs all over their yard, they can tell all their neighbors to vote for him, they can drive around in a car with a loudspeaker saying "Vote Joe Blow," they can tell everybody they can reach on social media he's the best thing since sliced bread. Wouldn't stifle that one iota.

Now, they can also donate money to him. Just not an unlimited amount, not anonymously in secret, and not in violation of certain regulations or rules. Oh, and they gotta be in country, not foreigners. That's all campaign finance laws we drafted after the Nixon era because of Nixon/Watergate era corruption which you say didn't exist.

https://www.cnn.com/2012/01/23/opinion/ ... index.html

All these laws start being drafted in the early 70s. Coincidence?

None of this is stifling anybody's ability to speak in favor of any candidate. Not even to contribute to him, any more than speed limits stop you from using your car.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:00 pm 
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I see. Freedom of speech is a right--but more so if you're rich.


That's easily countered with large opposition groups.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:02 pm 
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I don't know of any such proposals. You're whipping a straw man.


Are you patterning your life after Eddie Haskell? Who do you thin k they are talking about when they oppose citizens united or talk about corporate money. Have you ever heard a LW talking head say that Union money should also be banned?

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"within weeks of being rid of the likes of you, rid of every fucking one of you,we would begin to see what kind of country this ought to be" Ike Bana 6/14/18


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:04 pm 
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No, my friend, people can support any candidate they want. They can put signs all over their yard, they can tell all their neighbors to vote for him, they can drive around in a car with a loudspeaker saying "Vote Joe Blow," they can tell everybody they can reach on social media he's the best thing since sliced bread. Wouldn't stifle that one iota.

Now, they can also donate money to him. Just not an unlimited amount, not anonymously in secret, and not in violation of certain regulations or rules. Oh, and they gotta be in country, not foreigners. That's all campaign finance laws we drafted after the Nixon era because of Nixon/Watergate era corruption which you say didn't exist.

https://www.cnn.com/2012/01/23/opinion/ ... index.html

All these laws start being drafted in the early 70s. Coincidence?

None of this is stifling anybody's ability to speak in favor of any candidate. Not even to contribute to him, any more than speed limits stop you from using your car.


It won't be long before it's unlimited. Scotus has been chipping away for years and individual contributions are next.

Maybe then people will start thinking amendment.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:07 pm 
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Translation: "bribery and corruption should be legal".


It's already legal and its called politics. Here's money, support my policies. Since the beginning of civilization.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:07 pm 
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That's easily countered with large opposition groups.

Easily? As easily as opening your wallet and tossing out a bunch of green? What you're saying is that one rich person is the equal to a shit wad of poor people. Nothing in the First Amendment implies such nonsense.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:08 pm 
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Overturning Citizens United would not prevent corporations from donating to candidates.

It would restore certain rules to corporate donations. Oh, and one more thing, also to donations by other entities. ;)

Here's again my personal position, but I'll let Demos say it for me.

http://www.demos.org/publication/do-cor ... l-spending

Conclusion

Unions and corporations face very different regulations when it comes to their political activity. Unions are heavily regulated and are required to report any political spending to several federal agencies, including the IRS and the Department of Labor. Corporations are required to disclose only a part of their political spending and face no accountability even from their own stakeholders. While organized business is free to advocate for the policies they prefer, it is only fair that they do so with at least the same transparency and accountability rules that govern organized labor.

[snip][end]

These differences were not as stark before Citizens United, but are, now.

Absolutely agreed. Everybody plays by the same rules. That's fair.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:08 pm 
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It's already legal and its called politics. Here's money, support my policies. Since the beginning of civilization.

I see. Because things have gone on for a long time, that makes them perfectly ok. Murder is ok too by this logic.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:11 pm 
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I wonder, would Librarian consider any form of bribery, illegal? At what point of explicit quid pro quo is it no longer peachy keen?

If I drop a giant bag of money on a congressman's desk, and I say, "you know, that environmental law that fines me for all that pollution I'm dumping in the harbor, maybe you should get rid of that?" Shouldn't that be against the law?

Bribery is as old as humankind and governance, I'm sure, but we've got laws against it, and for good reason.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:15 pm 
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The Canadian supreme court ruled that since money can corrupt politicians, that monetary restrictions on elections and third parties during elections are reasonable.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:15 pm 
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I wonder, would Librarian consider any form of bribery, illegal? At what point of explicit quid pro quo is it no longer peachy keen?

If I drop a giant bag of money on a congressman's desk, and I say, "you know, that environmental law that fines me for all that pollution I'm dumping in the harbor, maybe you should get rid of that?" Shouldn't that be against the law?

Bribery is as old as humankind and governance, I'm sure, but we've got laws against it, and for good reason.

Maybe even older, but not, as Librarian implies, are bribery and politics synonymous.

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"If you think that Mexico is only sending drug dealers and rapists, but also worry that Mexicans are going to take your job... What the f**k do you do for a living?" -Random Twitter post seen


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:16 pm 
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The Canadian supreme court ruled that since money can corrupt politicians, that monetary restrictions on elections and third parties during elections are reasonable.

Very reasonable. Librarian seems to think that corruption is cool.

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"If you think that Mexico is only sending drug dealers and rapists, but also worry that Mexicans are going to take your job... What the f**k do you do for a living?" -Random Twitter post seen


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