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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:59 am 
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The education secretary says panel set up after Florida school shooting won’t look at role of guns in school gun violence. WTF???

But we need to wait and see Mueller's report before we can determine that Trump is unfit for the office.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:24 am 
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The education secretary says panel set up after Florida school shooting won’t look at role of guns in school gun violence. WTF???

But we need to wait and see Mueller's report before we can determine that Trump is unfit for the office.

well, that's a waste of time.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:20 pm 
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these pale dopes will burn in hell and their own god will see to it.

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Who are these...flag-sucking halfwits fleeced fooled by stupid little rich kids They speak for all that is cruel stupid
They are racists hate mongers I piss down the throats of these Nazis Im too old to worry whether they like it Fuck them.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:23 pm 
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She'll look at stupid video games, though.

She backtracked on school officials calling ICE.

She is lying.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:25 pm 
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But we need to wait and see Mueller's report before we can determine that Trump is unfit for the office.


Hey but waiting and seeing is, like, being a moderate and independent thinker and nonpartisan and both sides do it and how come nobody here votes for republicans and and and and

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:34 pm 
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She'll look at stupid video games, though.


Well, there is one I would look at.

School shooting game Active Shooter pulled by Steam
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44302146

A game pitched as a "school shooting simulation" has been ditched from Steam's online store ahead of release.

The title had been criticised by parents of real-life school shooting victims, and an online petition opposing its launch had attracted more than 180,000 signatures.

[snip]

Although the original listing had explicitly described the title as being a "school shooting simulation", the reference was dropped.

In addition, a promise that gamers could "slaughter as many civilians as possible" if they chose to control the attacker rather than a police officer, was also removed.

The publisher had also sought to downplay a post in which it had apparently confirmed that the title would feature non-player characters (NPCs) modelled to look like children, who could be targeted.

[snip][end]

Active Shooter
Image

I tend to be against video game censorship, BUT ... I can certainly see the position of parents against this title.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:52 pm 
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are you indicating that "video" "games" can just go on unabated....srsly?

glad i dont got no mo' kids to fret in this fucked up cultcha.

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Who are these...flag-sucking halfwits fleeced fooled by stupid little rich kids They speak for all that is cruel stupid
They are racists hate mongers I piss down the throats of these Nazis Im too old to worry whether they like it Fuck them.
HST.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:54 pm 
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Well, there is one I would look at.

School shooting game Active Shooter pulled by Steam
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44302146

A game pitched as a "school shooting simulation" has been ditched from Steam's online store ahead of release.

The title had been criticised by parents of real-life school shooting victims, and an online petition opposing its launch had attracted more than 180,000 signatures.

[snip]

Although the original listing had explicitly described the title as being a "school shooting simulation", the reference was dropped.

In addition, a promise that gamers could "slaughter as many civilians as possible" if they chose to control the attacker rather than a police officer, was also removed.

The publisher had also sought to downplay a post in which it had apparently confirmed that the title would feature non-player characters (NPCs) modelled to look like children, who could be targeted.

[snip][end]

Active Shooter
Image

I tend to be against video game censorship, BUT ... I can certainly see the position of parents against this title.


I think they should have a discussion about the entire problem of gun violence. Can’t talk about gun violence without talking about guns. IMO you can’t address the issue without considering other factors which could be contributing to the problem. Something has changed in our society in the last 40 years and it is more than just a gun problem. I and most of my friends grew up around firearms. We all shot and we all hunted. We would have never considered carrying a gun into a school. I always had a shotgun behind the seat of my truck which I drove to school. Lots of us did. So something has changed other than the availability of guns. Not saying guns aren’t a factor and certainly not saying they aren’t a big factor. Just saying they are not the only cause or factor deserving consideration.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:54 pm 
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letting vid games continue in same fashion...why, thats like saying just becuz the hills are
green means the forests are healthy.

jesusH. fucking trance.

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Who are these...flag-sucking halfwits fleeced fooled by stupid little rich kids They speak for all that is cruel stupid
They are racists hate mongers I piss down the throats of these Nazis Im too old to worry whether they like it Fuck them.
HST.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:56 pm 
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[quote="rainwater » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:52 pm"]are you indicating that "video" "games" can just go on unabated....srsly?

glad i dont got no mo' kids to fret in this fucked up cultcha.[/quote
I imagine that many parents who won't let their kids have toy guns turn around and allow them to play violent games. Personally I do not own any video games and do not allow toy guns in my home.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:58 pm 
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I don't think violent video games are the primary causative factor in school shootings or other societal violence.

Why? They have the same games in Japan, Canada, Australia, Britain, and many other places ... don't lead to same results.

That said, I agree with you that doesn't mean we can't have a conversation about games much like we have them about movies or TV programs. With one difference: remember, most games make you a participant in what you're watching.

Yeah, are there any lines we think shouldn't be crossed? I wonder.

KZ Manager was a video game where you get to be the commandant of a concentration camp.

Image

Yes, it was a real DOS-based game. From a while back. It was quite controversial.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:13 pm 
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Before video games, it was rap causing kids to be violent. Before rap, it was heavy metal. Before heavy metal, it was Dungeons and Dragons. Before Dungeons and Dragons, was the ending of school prayer. Before the ending of school prayer, the pill. Before the pill it was comics.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:15 pm 
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I played Dungeons & Dragons.

It's why, from time to time, I like to find trolls to slay.

They regenerate, so you may need acid or fire.

Comic books did have a morality code, self-imposed around 1954 by the industry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority

Like the previous code, the CCA prohibited the presentation of "policemen, judges, government officials, and respected institutions … in such a way as to create disrespect for established authority." But it added the requirements that "in every instance good shall triumph over evil" and discouraged "instances of law enforcement officers dying as a result of a criminal's activities." Specific restrictions were placed on the portrayal of kidnapping and concealed weapons. Depictions of "excessive violence" were forbidden, as were "lurid, unsavory, gruesome illustrations." Vampires, werewolves, ghouls and zombies could not be portrayed. In addition, comics could not use the words "horror" or "terror" in their titles. The use of the word "crime" was subject to numerous restrictions. Where the previous code had condemned the publication of "sexy, wanton comics," the CCA was much more precise: depictions of "sex perversion", "sexual abnormalities", and "illicit sex relations" as well as seduction, rape, sadism, and masochism were specifically forbidden. In words echoing the Hollywood Production Code, love stories were enjoined to emphasize the "sanctity of marriage" and those portraying scenes of passion were advised to avoid stimulating "lower and baser emotions."

[snip][end]

They banned the undead from comics! Oh and it was a rule that the good guys had to win! :D

... no comment. :roll:

BTW, Marvel did start pushing back against these conventions in the 1960s.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:25 pm 
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I don't think violent video games are the primary causative factor in school shootings or other societal violence.

Why? They have the same games in Japan, Canada, Australia, Britain, and many other places ... don't lead to same results.

That said, I agree with you that doesn't mean we can't have a conversation about games much like we have them about movies or TV programs. With one difference: remember, most games make you a participant in what you're watching.

Yeah, are there any lines we think shouldn't be crossed? I wonder.

KZ Manager was a video game where you get to be the commandant of a concentration camp.

Image

Yes, it was a real DOS-based game. From a while back. It was quite controversial.


I agree that video games by themselves are not the primary causative factor in gun violence. I think it is probably a combination of things that drive people to commit such acts. It may not always be the same combination of "causes" in each and every case.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:25 pm 
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Before video games, it was rap causing kids to be violent. Before rap, it was heavy metal. Before heavy metal, it was Dungeons and Dragons. Before Dungeons and Dragons, was the ending of school prayer. Before the ending of school prayer, the pill. Before the pill it was comics.


Before that, it was rock and roll and television and party lines on the telephone. Before that it was jazz and records and the radio. Before that it was blues. Before that it was ragtime and opium dens.

It never ends with these people.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:46 pm 
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I think they should have a discussion about the entire problem of gun violence. Can’t talk about gun violence without talking about guns. IMO you can’t address the issue without considering other factors which could be contributing to the problem. Something has changed in our society in the last 40 years and it is more than just a gun problem. I and most of my friends grew up around firearms. We all shot and we all hunted. We would have never considered carrying a gun into a school. I always had a shotgun behind the seat of my truck which I drove to school. Lots of us did. So something has changed other than the availability of guns. Not saying guns aren’t a factor and certainly not saying they aren’t a big factor. Just saying they are not the only cause or factor deserving consideration.

Yeah, I do agree something has changed. I don't know precisely what it is as I am not educated in the social sciences that deal with those issues most directly. I know various factors play roles. I know that those factors can be wielded by political power holders/seekers for their own ends.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

The new motto of the USA: Unum de multis. Out of one, many.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:30 pm 
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Something has changed in our society in the last 40 years and it is more than just a gun problem.


It's an access to guns problem, and access to guns by whom. Evidently in suburbia -- where all of these school massacres happen -- they apparently now have a big problem in the way they raise their sons.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:49 pm 
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Before video games, it was rap causing kids to be violent. Before rap, it was heavy metal. Before heavy metal, it was Dungeons and Dragons. Before Dungeons and Dragons, was the ending of school prayer. Before the ending of school prayer, the pill. Before the pill it was comics.

Before that, it was rock and roll and television and party lines on the telephone. Before that it was jazz and records and the radio. Before that it was blues. Before that it was ragtime and opium dens.

It never ends with these people.


And it's never the guns. But pretty much everywhere in the first world where the people therein decided it was the guns, we see our gun homicide rate now 5 times as high, or 10 times as high, or 75 fucking times as high as in the UK where they removed handguns and assault rifles from the culture after the first mass school shooting in 1996.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:25 am 
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And it's never the guns. But pretty much everywhere in the first world where the people therein decided it was the guns, we see our gun homicide rate now 5 times as high, or 10 times as high, or 75 fucking times as high as in the UK where they removed handguns and assault rifles from the culture after the first mass school shooting in 1996.


Everything but guns.

Everything but the paranoiac suburban Republican mentality about guns.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:36 am 
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Something has changed in our society in the last 40 years and it is more than just a gun problem. I and most of my friends grew up around firearms. We all shot and we all hunted. We would have never considered carrying a gun into a school. I always had a shotgun behind the seat of my truck which I drove to school. Lots of us did. So something has changed other than the availability of guns. Not saying guns aren’t a factor and certainly not saying they aren’t a big factor. Just saying they are not the only cause or factor deserving consideration.


You must realize what you're describing is purely a rural phenomenon, Joe. Back when I was in primary school, in the Upper Paleolithic :D , in an urban setting, I don't remember anybody leaving firearms in their trucks, and I can't remember anybody who regularly hunted. BTW, I'm struggling to remember any student who drove a truck. Among the friends I knew, I don't remember guns being much of their lives, which is not to say their parents didn't have one - I just didn't see it.

There were plenty of violent video games back there in the UP, it's just that the graphics were a lot worse. Also, pop culture had plenty of violent movies and TV back then, too.

But anyway, I have one theory outside of the obvious one of gun prevalence. I agree this is a multiple-cause phenomenon, but I'll identify one. Excessive individualism.

http://www.popularsocialscience.com/201 ... shootings/

A person’s lack of social bonds – a main indicator

The theories of the French sociologist Emile Durkheim may give us a deeper understanding of how certain cultural factors contribute to mental illness. In a classical study he found that suicides were much more frequent in individualistic societies, which are characterized by a lower degree of social integration, compared to more collectivistic societies. A person who is poorly socially integrated has a high risk of becoming a lone wolf, which may be a more common problem attributable to individualistic societies. Mass murderers are often isolated individuals that over time have built up aggression towards to the society they feel disconnected from.

According to Durkheim a society may find itself in a state of anomie, or normlessness, when the rules that guide people in their behavior toward each other have broken down, and people do not know what to expect from each other. This is in line with the social control theory which states that mass shootings occur when the perpetrator’s bond to society weaken. The shooter’s self-perception becomes one of being socially marginalized.

Mass shootings are more frequent in individualistic compared to collectivistic societies (*). The lower degree of social integration in an individualistic society may lead to a greater risk of social isolation. In extreme cases this may strengthen the mass murderers’ perception of being a loner “in a world full of enemies.” This bears resemblance with school shooters who often have low social skills, and are poorly socially integrated. Such vulnerable individuals, who are in a state of emotional chaos, may then use violence as an outlet for their built up anger toward society, which they feel has betrayed them.

[snip][end]

(*) That finding is both robust, and important.

Growing social alienation, isolation, and disconnection, from a society that increasingly has become atomized. What Durkheim called anomie. He saw it as a cause primarily for suicide, but I think today's sociologists are looking at it as a cause for mass homicide.

We live in a society where we are told as individuals we need to build our "brand". Our ego needs to be large and loud for a big world that would otherwise ignore us to notice us. Well, I believe Nicholas Cruz was quite clear about this. One way to make sure you will be remembered forever, and your name be on everybody's lips, is carry out a mass shooting.

Keep telling people they need to compete to have their ego be noticed, and not cooperate to foster society ... this results. Like Carmen keeps noting, the ultimate form of competition is elimination.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:01 am 
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Yeah, I do agree something has changed. I don't know precisely what it is as I am not educated in the social sciences that deal with those issues most directly. I know various factors play roles. I know that those factors can be wielded by political power holders/seekers for their own ends.


As a social scientist I will provide my opinion that only one thing has changed. Pissed off assholes are able to buy military grade automatic weapons down at the corner store. As far as the social science part, nothing has changed. When it comes to guns, the country is more than half full of assholes.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:05 am 
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Everything but guns.

Everything but the paranoiac suburban Republican mentality about guns.


Well carmen...I believe it's more than paranoiac suburban Republicans. If every alleged liberal Democrat in the country rose up and demanded a handgun and automatic rifle ban and told their Congress creature it's what they want, we would already have the ban. There have been points in time since Columbine when Democrats controlled both houses and the White House, and it was not forthcoming. There will be times in the future when Democrats control both houses and the White House, and we will not get it then either. Because when it comes to guns...the country is more than half full of assholes.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:02 am 
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You must realize what you're describing is purely a rural phenomenon, Joe. Back when I was in primary school, in the Upper Paleolithic :D , in an urban setting, I don't remember anybody leaving firearms in their trucks, and I can't remember anybody who regularly hunted. BTW, I'm struggling to remember any student who drove a truck. Among the friends I knew, I don't remember guns being much of their lives, which is not to say their parents didn't have one - I just didn't see it.

There were plenty of violent video games back there in the UP, it's just that the graphics were a lot worse. Also, pop culture had plenty of violent movies and TV back then, too.

But anyway, I have one theory outside of the obvious one of gun prevalence. I agree this is a multiple-cause phenomenon, but I'll identify one. Excessive individualism.

http://www.popularsocialscience.com/201 ... shootings/

A person’s lack of social bonds – a main indicator

The theories of the French sociologist Emile Durkheim may give us a deeper understanding of how certain cultural factors contribute to mental illness. In a classical study he found that suicides were much more frequent in individualistic societies, which are characterized by a lower degree of social integration, compared to more collectivistic societies. A person who is poorly socially integrated has a high risk of becoming a lone wolf, which may be a more common problem attributable to individualistic societies. Mass murderers are often isolated individuals that over time have built up aggression towards to the society they feel disconnected from.

According to Durkheim a society may find itself in a state of anomie, or normlessness, when the rules that guide people in their behavior toward each other have broken down, and people do not know what to expect from each other. This is in line with the social control theory which states that mass shootings occur when the perpetrator’s bond to society weaken. The shooter’s self-perception becomes one of being socially marginalized.

Mass shootings are more frequent in individualistic compared to collectivistic societies (*). The lower degree of social integration in an individualistic society may lead to a greater risk of social isolation. In extreme cases this may strengthen the mass murderers’ perception of being a loner “in a world full of enemies.” This bears resemblance with school shooters who often have low social skills, and are poorly socially integrated. Such vulnerable individuals, who are in a state of emotional chaos, may then use violence as an outlet for their built up anger toward society, which they feel has betrayed them.

[snip][end]

(*) That finding is both robust, and important.

Growing social alienation, isolation, and disconnection, from a society that increasingly has become atomized. What Durkheim called anomie. He saw it as a cause primarily for suicide, but I think today's sociologists are looking at it as a cause for mass homicide.

We live in a society where we are told as individuals we need to build our "brand". Our ego needs to be large and loud for a big world that would otherwise ignore us to notice us. Well, I believe Nicholas Cruz was quite clear about this. One way to make sure you will be remembered forever, and your name be on everybody's lips, is carry out a mass shooting.

Keep telling people they need to compete to have their ego be noticed, and not cooperate to foster society ... this results. Like Carmen keeps noting, the ultimate form of competition is elimination.

It also contributes to the rise of fascism according to Robert Paxton.

Thatcher should have been lambasted even more for her comment regarding society. Homo Economicus not only doesn’t exist, he can’t exist and be mentally stable at the same time.

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"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

The new motto of the USA: Unum de multis. Out of one, many.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:36 am 
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Part one of interview with Peter Fleming, author of The Death of Homo Economicus: Work, Debt and the Myth of Endless Accumulation

In this episode, Fleming gives his analysis of an economy in which the public sphere has been plundered by the billionaire class.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thesundayedition/exploring-the-root-causes-of-inequality-1.4687264

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:44 am 
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Before that, it was rock and roll and television and party lines on the telephone. Before that it was jazz and records and the radio. Before that it was blues. Before that it was ragtime and opium dens.

It never ends with these people.



The real cause is fluoridated drinking water

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