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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:21 am 
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Wag the Jong.

There is no diplomatic strategy here. This was just a staged photo op between two Russia/China Puppets.

Huge win for NK and China. NK gets everything. Recognition on the world stage. Loads of media propaganda for years to come. Trump suspends military exercises with South Korea. Kim says he's willing to denuke but NK has made these same BS commitments since 1992.

There is nothing about:
-NoKo freezing plutonium/uranium programs,
-destroying intercontinental ballistic missiles,
-allowing inspectors to return to nuclear sites,
-NoKo making a full declaration of its nuclear program,
-a timetable,
-a clear pledge to permanently halt testing of nuclear weapons or long-range missiles.

Only a few short days ago Trump viciously attacked America's greatest ally and its leader. But Trump heaps loads of beta male praise on Kim, a vile murderous despot. Trump said Kim has a great personality, he's smart, he's a great negotiator, he's funny, he loves his country, he's talented, they have an excellent relationship and a special bond. :roll:


This is just another distraction from the Mueller investigation.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:35 am 
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Wag the Jong.

There is no diplomatic strategy here. This was just a staged photo op between two Russia/China Puppets.

Huge win for NK and China. NK gets everything. Recognition on the world stage. Loads of media propaganda for years to come. Trump suspends military exercises with South Korea. Kim says he's willing to denuke but NK has made these same BS commitments since 1992.

There is nothing about:
-NoKo freezing plutonium/uranium programs,
-destroying intercontinental ballistic missiles,
-allowing inspectors to return to nuclear sites,
-NoKo making a full declaration of its nuclear program,
-a timetable,
-a clear pledge to permanently halt testing of nuclear weapons or long-range missiles.

Only a few short days ago Trump viciously attacked America's greatest ally and its leader. But Trump heaps loads of beta male praise on Kim, a vile murderous despot. Trump said Kim has a great personality, he's smart, he's a great negotiator, he's funny, he loves his country, he's talented, they have an excellent relationship and a special bond. :roll:


This is just another distraction from the Mueller investigation.


I think it's more than that, at least for South Korea and a lot of Korean Americans with family in one or both parts of the peninsula. Without Moon Jae-In and that other historic meeting between .nk and .kr, this would not have been possible.

Dump was talking about not going, just a couple weeks ago.

F' that guy.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:01 pm 
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6 weeks ago you had us going to war now thst we are talking to NK you are opposed to that. Can you tell me the last time any President had success renegotiating with NK. So if nothing comes from this it will have vost us nothing.

The main reason to be optimistic is because it appears that China is heavily involved. At the end of the day NK has to do whst Chins tells them

The real truth is Democrats in general and extreme lefties in particular ate scated shitless that something substantial will happen and Trump and the GOP will get the credit. Showing that you folks put party over country.


CodePINK ate scated so shitless that they're practically in spring festival mode. In other words, they're happy. You can stop making generalities about the left now.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Two dumb rotund clowns with funny hair met with their stomachs pointing one another, like one of those optical illusion drawings, except that there's no Grecian urn in the middle when you look at them all funny.

Except that one dumb rotund clown is bigger than the other. Nothing Photoshop can't fix.

Even faux said two dictators were meeting. Really, faux said that. I have footage.

The media will now all jump through the hoops thus held up for them, and Republican election hopes will multiply. Mission Accomplished.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:14 pm 
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Then there's this

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:37 pm 
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Then there's this

Image


Can you say...EMOLUMENTS CLAUSE???

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Glen has gone full MAGA.


I'd say full MAWA.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:55 pm 
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1) North Korea will open a burger joint. (No, I'm not getting this from the Onion.)
https://nypost.com/2018/05/29/north-kor ... t-instead/
Their people may be starving, but they will have Mickey D's.

2) Dennis Rodman will now play for the NK Olympic basketball team. Perhaps Kim will invest in Potcoin.
3) Kim will come to the U.S. and golf at a Trump resort. Unknown whether he will bring his own personal toilet. (Again, not from the Onion.) If he doesn't know golf ... well, you gotta start somewhere.

So, Trump did not bring with him any nuclear science advisors, any additional diplomats with knowledge of NK (you may know we DON'T HAVE a SK ambassador right now) or arms control, the "team" with him is extremely (but maybe typically) thin and down one because Larry Kudlow just had a heart attack.

There's nobody even taking notes. If we want to know what went down, better hope the translators have good memories. Now remember, it can be hard to translate and memorize at the same time.

Why am I skeptical? That's why. We're once again supposed to believe that the expertise-free Wonder King will succeed where others, actually daring to rely on additional experts, have failed.

But he has Dennis. :roll:



Not The Onion:
Quote:
Trump: If NK Denuclearizes, It Could Have the ‘Best Hotels’


https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-if- ... est-hotels

It is important to remember that Rump is an idiot. Can barely read, knows absolutely nothing about anything ESPECIALLY business. Imagine if he knows nothing, AT ALL, about the one thing he is supposed to be an expert in, imagine how much he doesnt know about nukes and treaties.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:19 pm 
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This article is from 5 months ago.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/talking-to ... 1516303402

So Trump was told by a "key advisor" to drop joint military exercises in SK. That key advisor was Vladimir Putin. And Trump just did exactly that Putin asked him to do.

Quote:
Mr. Trump had an idea about how to counter the nuclear threat posed by North Korea, which he got after speaking to Russian President Vladimir Putin : If the U.S. stopped joint military exercises with the South Koreans, it could help moderate Kim Jong Un’s behavior.




But yah, the collusion thing is all tinfoil.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:53 pm 
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I heard the press conference and he was making a joke


Nice to see that you never defend 45 glen.

Except when you do.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:07 pm 
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So Vlad tells 45 to dump the Military Excercises and he does. Which means basically told the ROK to go fuck it self, the ROK sent to troops to Viet Nam, but 45 is a draft dodger so that does not count.

Apparently 45 is did not consult the President of ROK or the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Now as I recall, these yearly exercises are part of a treaty passed by the U.S. Senate, which means only the U.S. Senate can approve changes to the treaty.

So 45 not only back stabbed a long time ally, but violated Constitution regarding The Powers of The Legislative Branch.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:23 pm 
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I'd say full MAWA.


glen has always been full MAWA.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:49 pm 
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Will a conservative tell me how this is different than Neville Chamberlain?

We're supposed to trust the most un-trustworthy nation on earth just because Donald Trump says so?

What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

And here's the thing - just because it's Trump, conservatives will jettison critical thinking process. "Thanks, Mr. Chamberlain, you and Herr Hitler have given us peace in our time!"


A Liberal will tell you how this is different than Neville Chamberlain.

There's a striking difference between Hitler Germany and Kim's North Korea. Hitler could set more and better equipped troops across the border than all of the rest of nations in Europe combined could muster. Kim's North Korea could threaten South Korea, but they cannot threaten China or Russia. And with the US to help, and the US would help in the event of an invasion, South Korea could stand.

Neville Chamberlain did no harm, the invasion was in the works anyway, and the rest of Europe wasn't ready and wouldn't realistically have gotten ready until their backs were to the wall. He also did no good.


Time will tell if Trump's agreement was a nothing thing or a serendipitous thing. Trump's agreement is no better, nor likely any worse than Obama's agreement with Iran, which Trump hates.

It's not funny how he hates what Obama did with Iran and then does something kind of similar with North Korea. I guess that is an example of people perferring the smell of their own farts better than the smell of other peoples farts.

What is similar is both agreements work on the carrot and Internet principle. Both agreements work from the principle that nether country will improve is their backs are to the wall and they are kept there. What will improve both countries is to rig it so that the 21 century will creep across the borders and infect the population. Then the population will pressure the glorious leaders to bend.



I don't object to Trump's agreement, what could he do which would be better? The old school is just crap and hasn't worked despite 60 years of trying.

Try something new, we probably can't do worse than what we've been doing. This is better than Trump rattling sabers.

There's no point in continuing that old cold war shit. So this is one time I'm not going to object to something Trump does. And if in four or five years it seems to have worked I might even complement him on it. But it will have to work first.

So I'm neutral, not complaining, not praising Trump for this, and only this. :|


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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:18 am 
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Really, though I'm waiting for some Russian troll to reappear and tell me otherwise, no, the deal Obama made with Iran was better than the one we just made with NK, and it's not just because of who was POTUS when it happened. That's not my (sole) problem.

The Art of the Deal? Obama’s With Iran Was Much Better Than Trump’s With North Korea
The Singapore statement pales even in comparison with the interim, preliminary Iran deal signed by the U.S. and other world powers in 2013.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-art-o ... orth-korea

ISTANBUL — One was the result of 12 years of painstaking negotiations over two U.S. presidential administrations and three changes of government on the other side, with the U.N. Security Council, the International Atomic Energy Agency, and leaders from the capitals of half a dozen countries actively involved.

The other was hammered out by two beefy guys with bad hair during the equivalent of a long layover in Singapore.

It may be unfair to compare the 159-page Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, the Iran nuclear deal, signed by Tehran and world powers in 2015, to the barely two-page Singapore declaration penned by Donald Trump and Kim Jong Un, which is supposed to kick off the process of a deal.

But the Singapore statement, which has been praised by Trump supporters and conservative pundits on cable television, also pales dramatically in comparison to the interim deal that Iran, the U.S. and other world powers signed in 2013.

That four-page document, called the Joint Plan of Action and signed in Geneva on November 24, 2013, ultimately paved the way for the JCPOA, which arms control experts generally regarded as an imperfect but effective way of preventing Iran from getting a nuclear weapon, but Trump repeatedly has called the “worst deal” ever.

Republicans hostile to Barack Obama blasted the Iran deal as appeasing a brutal regime. In contrast, pundits on Fox News lauded Trump for his diplomatic prowess in meeting with North Korea’s leader.

“If it was a Democratic president he or she would have been heavily criticized for just sitting down with Kim Jong Un,” said Darryl Kimball, executive director of the Arms Control Association. “The Singapore statement is a very basic framework document that sets out the goals for a future negotiations. It is not a deal. It is not a plan. It is not a clearly spelled out a set of steps.”

[snip]

Trump also hopes to best his predecessors by drawing nuclear-armed North Korea into a comprehensive deal that will denuclearize the Korean peninsula and lower tensions across northeast Asia. But critics say that in contrast to the Obama administration’s approach to Iran negotiations, Trump’s has been too vague, has given away too many concessions already, and has excluded allies that could give Washington precious leverage.

“We see big headline statements that are going to be hard to assess,” said Ellie Geranmayeh, senior fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations, and an expert on the Iran deal. “How you can measure performance, especially in North Korea?”

The document the U.S., Iran, E.U., Russia, and China signed in 2013 included specific actions to be undertaken by each party over the following six months, renewable by mutual consent if talks were progressing. “It required Iran to take some significant measures on its nuclear program that were verifiable and measurable in return for some minimal sanctions easing,” said Geranmayeh.

In contrast, the Singapore declaration — at least on paper (and what else is there?) — lacks any specific actions or dates, committing Pyongyang to merely “work towards the complete denuclearization of the Korean peninsula.”

From the start of the Iran deal, negotiators understood that any vagueness could spell trouble. In the best case scenario, diplomats and experts spend the months after an initial declaration winnowing down overly broad statements into tangible changes that improve the security architecture of one of the most dangerous regions on the planet.

In a likelier scenario, Kim takes advantage of the lack of benchmarks and deadlines, banks his diplomatic successes, keeps his head down, and quietly builds up his arsenal of weapons while hoping Trump gets distracted.

In a worst-case scenario, imprecise language leads to misunderstanding. “This statement is so vague and poorly written, Trump might get spun up into believing the North Koreans are violating the deal and you get back into the cycle of escalatory rhetoric,” said Jarrett Blanc, a former Iran nuclear deal negotiator now at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

[snip]

But others criticized Trump for giving Kim other concessions without getting anything in return. Though the deal didn’t stipulate anything about military exercises, Trump at a press conference suggested joint military operations with South Korea would be suspended during the course of any negotiations — this in exchange for a halt to nuclear tests experts say the North Koreans likely no longer need.

Trump also discussed lowering U.S. troop numbers, calling the continued American presence on the Korean Peninsula “too expensive,” and floated a possible White House invite for Kim. In the joint statement, Trump also “committed to provide security guarantees” to North Korea, which critics contend was far too big a promise, or just sloppy wording.

“In the past the U.S. talks about security ‘assurances’; they talk about a security ‘guarantee’ — it’s batshit crazy,” said Blanc. “I’m concerned about what appear to be largely unreciprocated concessions from the U.S. And I am more concerned that it genuinely does not seem that Trump understands that he has made concessions.”

Again, by comparison every step of the Iran deal was carefully calibrated, with easing of sanctions and freezing of assets coming only in return for verifiable steps in rolling back Tehran’s nuclear program. “There’s really no comparison between the highly structured organized way the Iran process was begun, and this,” said Blanc.

Iran’s nuclear program was for years under international scrutiny, with inspections by the U.N.’s International Atomic Energy Agency, or IAEA, tightening as the JCPOA went into effect. North Korea, which withdrew years ago from the international nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, has repeatedly welcomed and booted out inspectors, announcing that it would ramp up enrichment or test weapons. The Singapore declaration makes no mention of any role for the IAEA, which somewhat awkwardly released a statement announcing that it “stands ready” to help out on any inspections.

The lack of the IAEA participation underscores perhaps the biggest shortcoming of the Singapore declaration, as well Trump’s Gonzo-style diplomacy, compared to the carefully choreographed process that led up to Iran deal: a lack of cooperation by U.S. allies and other global players.

Under both Presidents George W. Bush and Obama, the U.S. worked closely with allies like the U.K. and France and other world powers in efforts to ratchet up pressure on Iran to get it to come to the negotiating table. In contrast, Trump seems to have repeatedly caught the crucial players in the North Korea talks off guard. Announcing the talks in the first place surprised China and Russia, key trading partners of North Korea, and the move to float a possible suspension of military exercises appeared to surprise U.S. allies South Korea and Japan.

By failing to coordinate his moves with partners, Trump has foregone precious potential leverage over North Korea. Both Beijing and Moscow are praising the Singapore meeting, but instead of maximizing pressure on Pyongyang, China and Russia and others are scrambling to bolster ties with North Korea ahead of a potential U.S. rapprochement with the country.

[snip][end]

Yeah, that's me ... pointing out that when examined on the actual details, not just the "spirit," the North Korea deal, objectively, sucks worse. And was more poorly negotiated.

No consultation with allies, no real framework, one-sided concessions, no IAEA involvement ... the worse deal is the better one in Trumpland. Black is white, up is down, reality is flipped asunder.

BTW, sorry to break the 4 para rule again, but like I said, the devil is in the details here, so I'm using most of this article.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:23 am 
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Thanks for spelling it out for Glen, Professor.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:27 am 
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Not just for him. ;)

Someone else above. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:27 am 
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Not just for him. ;)

Someone else above. ;)


Spelling it out for the cold war Leftenant.


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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:33 am 
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Hmm, those extreme left partisan Democrats at Foreign Policy have this to say:

A Historic Breakthrough or a Historic Blunder in Singapore?

Quote:
Kim Jong Un May Have Outwitted Trump at the Summit

The Singapore summit was mesmerizing political theater. In this latest installment of “diplotainment,” live from the Oval Office, U.S. President Donald Trump assured the American people that they could trust Kim Jong Un and that North Korea's supreme leader was sincere about denuclearization. Further adding to the spectacle was a faux film trailer that Trump had prepared for Kim. Claiming to have been produced by “Destiny Pictures,” the video featured footage of Trump and Kim as tense music played in the background; a male narrator spoke in overly dramatic tones: “A new story, a new beginning, one of peace. Two men, two leaders, one destiny. A story in a special moment in time. When a man is presented with one chance that may never be repeated, what will he choose?”

Trump is certainly correct in pointing out that he made history in meeting amicably with his North Korean adversary. But it is yet to be determined whether he made a historic breakthrough or a historic blunder. No previous U.S. president considered it prudent to embark on summitry with so little preparation or on terms so favorable to the other side, let alone to promise to unilaterally discontinue defensive joint U.S.–South Korean military exercises on the Korean Peninsula. For his part, Kim can rightfully boast that he has accomplished what his father and grandfather could only dream of: achieving the twin goals of building a viable nuclear weapons capability and then winning international acceptance as a “very honorable” peer, as he was referred to by the leader of the free world.

In the end, the joint statement that emerged from the summit is but a diluted version of numerous past aspirational documents put forward by North Korea and its negotiating partners. It lightly echoes inter-Korean agreements dating back to the 1992 Joint Declaration of the Denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula. It contains watered-down versions of pledges in international deals such as the 1994 Agreed Framework and the 2005 joint statement of the fourth round of the six-party talks. It allows North Korea to slide from its previous commitment “to abandon all nuclear weapons and existing nuclear programs and [return] at an early date to the [Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty].” And it offers a vague promise “to work toward complete denuclearization.” This can hardly be construed as progress. The Singapore joint statement is worrisomely silent on ballistic missiles, let alone chemical weapons, cyberwarfare, nuclear proliferation, and (unsurprisingly) human rights.

In any case, even a robust joint statement could not serve as a reliable indicator of progress given North Korea’s spotty record of compliance and follow-through. So at this point, what progress can each side credibly claim to have achieved based on its goals coming into the meeting?


Conservatives crowing that not everyone has immediately fallen into lockstep with Donald Trump on NK are just doing the same thing the frothing at the mouth Evangelical Christian and some Jewish Zionist far-righters did with the Jerusalem declaration, playing their same old authoritarian/entitlement/elitist mentality game: no is to question a conservative. Ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:56 am 
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Spelling it out for the cold war Leftenant.


Cold War's over, Sam. Good riddance. Gave birth to a lot of black ops crap.

Trying something new is always good, Sam.

You can try something new, and not be stupid about it.

Kind of like the Iran Deal was, and the NK deal, wasn't.

Multilateralism > Unilateralism. You work this out with allies, coalitions, partners, the UN/IAEA.

As a liberal, I believe in multilateral solutions to diplomatic problems. That means working in concert with others - something TrumpMAGA doesn't do.

I don't believe in blundering your way through them and winging it as you go along. Might be new, still is foolish.

Still think it's mighty odd Trump is pulling out of an excellently negotiated deal with Iran, while making a ridiculously worse one with North Korea.

Shortly after, BTW, blowing up all our other alliances with the G7, well except maybe for neo-fascist Italy.

Look Sam: of course jaw-jaw is better than war-war and I'm as tired of Trump saber rattling as you are.

But let's be real: for all the "failures" of Obama, Bush, and Clinton ... there also was no actual conflict with North Korea either, was there? Containment is a policy.

For the most part, it seemed to work. If your yardstick is a lack of actual war-war.

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Last edited by ProfessorX on Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:00 am 
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One clause in one sentence stands out in Carmen's quote, "let alone to promise to unilaterally discontinue defensive joint U.S.–South Korean military exercises on the Korean Peninsula."

It was in the context of it being something important Trump got snookered into giving away. Military exercises are an often talked about thing in the news. Have you ever given thought as to what they actually are?


I regard news bites of military exercises as saber rattling. Insofar as militarily usefulness I regard them as basically a waste of time and fuel, and in some cases ammo. If there isn't ammo wasted they're a total loss.

Leftenant speaking, I regard joint U.S.–South Korean military exercises on the Korean Peninsula to be about as useful as buckets of warm spit. Oh' it feels good on ones boot. Glosses the shine.


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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:04 am 
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I just would have told the South Koreans and Japanese first we were planning on it, and then asked for their opinion.

Thoughtful people do that.

Warm spit or no.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:28 am 
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Lol

Becuz nooooo George Monbiot is not the left. Never was!!

Donald Trump was right. The rest of the G7 were wrong - Guardian/CIF

Quote:
He gets almost everything wrong. But last weekend Donald Trump got something right. To the horror of the other leaders of the rich world, he defended democracy against its detractors. Perhaps predictably, he has been universally condemned for it.

His crime was to insist that the North American Free Trade Agreement (Nafta) should have a sunset clause. In other words, it should not remain valid indefinitely, but expire after five years, allowing its members either to renegotiate it or to walk away. To howls of execration from the world’s media, his insistence has torpedoed efforts to update the treaty.

In Rights of Man, published in 1791, Thomas Paine argued that: “Every age and generation must be as free to act for itself, in all cases, as the ages and generations which preceded it. The vanity and presumption of governing beyond the grave is the most ridiculous and insolent of all tyrannies.” This is widely accepted – in theory if not in practice – as a basic democratic principle.

Even if the people of the US, Canada and Mexico had explicitly consented to Nafta in 1994, the idea that a decision made then should bind everyone in North America for all time is repulsive. So is the notion, championed by the Canadian and Mexican governments, that any slightly modified version of the deal agreed now should bind all future governments.


Anybody remember "Not this NAFTA?"

Anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:44 am 
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NAFTA is actually an issue for only one country present at the G7 talks - Canada. (Mexico is not part of the Gx).

It really has nothing to do with any of the other European countries present.

Secondly, maybe NAFTA should have had a sunset clause. It would be nice if Trump had a thorough, thoughtful critique of NAFTA.

Like its environmental problems, for example. Or labor impacts.

But, Msr. Monbiot, he doesn't. He only whines about America apparently being taken advantage of by the Canadians - which you should know is nonsense.

And calling him the only "champion of democracy" at those meetings, given his recent love of dictators and authoritarians (aside from his own behavior), is just f'n silly.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:57 am 
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Drumpf wouldn't know NAFTA from his lard butt. He only knows what the pundits on faux have told him to think. (Or at least do his process that emulates thinking, sort of. In other words, figure it out on the shitter, then tweet something that the government immediately adopts as revealed Word.

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 Post subject: Re: Appeaser
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Drumpf wouldn't know NAFTA from his lard butt. He only knows what the pundits on faux have told him to think. (Or at least do his process that emulates thinking, sort of. In other words, figure it out on the shitter, then tweet something that the government immediately adopts as revealed Word.


I have an open bet with anyone who will take it up.

I have $10,000 cash that says I can ask rump 5 basic business questions that any mom and pop store owner would know the answers to without blinking and that he would not know at least 4 of them. If he gets one right I win, if he gets two or more right you win.

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