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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:20 pm 
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But you do. You get the BETTER PAY - raises because of the contract. BETTER BENEFITS - improvements in health care, retirement, seniority. RIGHTS ON THE JOB - working conditions and rights spelled out in a legally-binding contract.

So, yes, you are USING the gym.

Still wondering why you continued to lie throughout this thread. It's funny that you run away from this.


If we go to a restaurant and you order a meal for me when I tell you ahead of time I do not want what you are ordering and do not intend to eat what you order and in fact do not partake of a single item, I am not liable for half the tab just because you say the food is wonderful. You have no idea what my deal is with the company. I may have benefits through my wife's company and I may have had no problems at all working with my employers and therefore need no "protection" on the job. So joining your organization may not do a thing for me. It should be my choice. I should not be charged anything if I don't join. Nothing. I should not fear for my job for not paying your fees. I get you think what you do is valuable and it may be for a great many people. I am not saying they should be prevented from joining the union. That is their choice and that is their right. But the reverse is also true if you truly believe in workers rights. I also have a right not to join. I have a right not to be charged for your expenses. Your agreement is with your members and you should look to them for dues and expenses. I have a right to feel secure in my job.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:24 pm 
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Wrong. You would vote against them joining a union. You'd vote NO.


Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on the union and it depends on the contract. I would never support a union contract that would result in termination of any employee who EITHER refused to join the union or nonmember who refused to pay union fees and expenses. I would not want it done to me and I would therefore not do it to others.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:25 pm 
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The union members hired them to do those kind of things for them.

BTW, this is another right-wing lie. People don't hire unions. That's the falsehood at the bottom of your entire argument. Unions aren't a third party that are "hired".

They are an organization of workers. Workers form unions, they don't hire them. When they form a union, they elect their leadership from among their ranks. Leaders in the unions are all workers from the shop floor. The President of the Culinary Union in Vegas is Geoconda Arguello Kline, who was a guest room attendant.

So your whole "Hiring" bullshit is just another falsehood.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:26 pm 
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Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on the union and it depends on the contract. I would never support a union contract that would result in termination of any employee who EITHER refused to join the union or nonmember who refused to pay union fees and expenses. I would not want it done to me and I would therefore not do it to others.

You have proven you don't care about others, you only care about YOU.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:27 pm 
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I have a right to feel secure in my job.

Bullshit. Without a union there is no job security.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:28 pm 
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Why don't companies provide them, then? Why does it take a union to get it done? You keep talking like the company always keeps the safety and well-being of the worker as their top priority.

This destroys your entire anti-union argument. Unions are needed by all workers.


Many companies do focus a great deal on safety. I am sure there are a great many companies that do not. If the workers at the latter decide it is in their best interest to organize, they should organize. They have that right.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:32 pm 
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Many companies do focus a great deal on safety. I am sure there are a great many companies that do not. If the workers at the latter decide it is in their best interest to organize, they should organize. They have that right.

The safest companies are the ones that are unionized. You have to involve the workers, and they have to have a REAL voice to actually improve safety. Companies are FAR more interested in the bottom line than worker safety.

And the Culinary workers PROVE that. The Casinos REFUSED to give the workers a simple safety device, and it took the workers' union to FORCE them to do so, with the threat of a strike.

Of course, I'm sure the only right you see of workers during a strike is your right to cross the picket line and break the strike.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:34 pm 
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You have proven you don't care about others, you only care about YOU.


I haven't called for the termination of anyone because of choices they make on the job. But you have.
I haven't called for the restriction of anyones rights to freely associate or may their own decisions. But you have.
I haven't advocated threatening employees with their job in order to get them to do what I want. But you have.

You are all for workers rights if they decide how you want them to decide. If they choose something else, they can get another damn job. You need your "happy shop". And you say I am selfish.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:35 pm 
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From Culinary Workers' President Geoconda Arguello Kline:

People sometimes forget that Culinary workers on the Strip are part of a whole ecosystem that’s plugged into the middle class of the entire city.

If you have good wages, people spend their money. If you have a good job, and your job is secure, you say, “I’m gonna buy a house, I have decent wages, I can take care of my family, I have health care to protect my family, I will retire with dignity.” It’s established families in the community. The Culinary Union in Las Vegas is a stable family that reflects an entire community.

Is the idea of taking pride in your work, no matter how simple, passé? Or the idea of basic respect for anyone doing a job? It seems like the dominant success narrative these days focuses on the singular visionaries and entrepreneurs in tech.

I think people need to be reminded that people deserve respect, not because of the job you do, but because every human being deserves respect. It doesn’t matter what job you perform; it’s a job you have with dignity, because you work so hard to bring money home. The person who delivers mail to my home — I respect that person. I know the person works so hard, in the cold weather, in the hot weather, so I can have my mail. Respect people’s jobs. If you’re a secretary, or you work making bread, or you work as a nurse, or you work serving drinks, the thing is respect.

I was a rank-and file-worker. I understand how much they work every single day. I was a guest-room attendant, seven years in the industry. When I see a guest-room attendant, I know exactly what she’s going through every single day.

Does that background change the way you see casinos?

Anybody who’s never worked in the casino and you go in there and you say, “Oh my god, it’s so beautiful. It’s so clean, it’s so nice, the food is so great.” But they didn’t understand the effort that was put forth by a human being to make everything look so beautiful and so great and so welcoming and have such a beautiful room. I am very connected with that because I came from the rank and file.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:36 pm 
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I haven't called for the termination of anyone because of choices they make on the job. But you have.
I haven't called for the restriction of anyones rights to freely associate or may their own decisions. But you have.
I haven't advocated threatening employees with their job in order to get them to do what I want. But you have.

You are all for workers rights if they decide how you want them to decide. If they choose something else, they can get another damn job. You need your "happy shop". And you say I am selfish.

Yep, I do. Tell me, do you support the right of a company to fire striking workers and permanently replace them?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:38 pm 
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A happy shop is one that doesn't have to live in fear of being fired for any reason or no reason. A happy shop is one that has better pay. A happy shop is one that has better benefits. A happy shop is one that has rights on the job.

A happy shop is a shop that has a strong union.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:39 pm 
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The safest companies are the ones that are unionized. You have to involve the workers, and they have to have a REAL voice to actually improve safety. Companies are FAR more interested in the bottom line than worker safety.

And the Culinary workers PROVE that. The Casinos REFUSED to give the workers a simple safety device, and it took the workers' union to FORCE them to do so, with the threat of a strike.

Of course, I'm sure the only right you see of workers during a strike is your right to cross the picket line and break the strike.


Again, if I am not a member of the union, I am not bound by their decision to strike or not to strike. Whether or not I would cross a picket line would depend on the reason for the strike. I am not in the habit of walking off the job. Never have been. It would be difficult for me to do so.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:41 pm 
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Again, if I am not a member of the union, I am not bound by their decision to strike or not to strike. Whether or not I would cross a picket line would depend on the reason for the strike. I am not in the habit of walking off the job. Never have been. It would be difficult for me to do so.

Why am I not surprised? Being a strikebreaker is the ultimate act of selfishness.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:45 pm 
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Yep, I do. Tell me, do you support the right of a company to fire striking workers and permanently replace them?


Depends on the issues and whether the demands are reasonable or not. Certainly, it is to no ones advantage to strike. The longer it goes on the more damage it does to both sides. I would encourage both sides to work quickly to an agreement but if they cannot agree then they must part ways. As in any agreement it has to make sense for everyone involved.

My first reaction would not be to fire workers. My first reaction would be to work towards resolution. My experience is that long strikes do lasting damage. I have watched plants close in my hometown because management and labor could not agree. I have seen 50 year old men and women have to start over somewhere else. It is not a pleasant experience.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:47 pm 
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Depends on the issues and whether the demands are reasonable or not. Certainly, it is to no ones advantage to strike. The longer it goes on the more damage it does to both sides. I would encourage both sides to work quickly to an agreement but if they cannot agree then they must part ways. As in any agreement it has to make sense for everyone involved.

My first reaction would not be to fire workers. My first reaction would be to work towards resolution. My experience is that long strikes do lasting damage. I have watched plants close in my hometown because management and labor could not agree. I have seen 50 year old men and women have to start over somewhere else. It is not a pleasant experience.

As usual, you sidestepped the question. Do you support the right of the company to fire striking workers and permanently replace them?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:49 pm 
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Why am I not surprised? Being a strikebreaker is the ultimate act of selfishness.


It's not about breaking a strike. I was raised to work hard for a days pay. Things have to be pretty bad for me to walk off a job. That's quitting and I am not wired that way. If I walk off I am not coming back. So I am not quick to walk off any job.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:54 pm 
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As usual, you sidestepped the question. Do you support the right of the company to fire striking workers and permanently replace them?


If the workers refuse to show up to work because management cannot reach an agreement with labor, then yes the company has the right and obligation to it's owners and creditors to terminate the striking workers and replace them. I do support that right of the company to do what is in their best interest. Although as I said that would not be my first response but rather a last resort. I also support the right of the workers to do what is in their best interest. If they cannot work things out then there is no alternative but for them to part ways.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:55 pm 
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It's not about breaking a strike. I was raised to work hard for a days pay. Things have to be pretty bad for me to walk off a job. That's quitting and I am not wired that way. If I walk off I am not coming back. So I am not quick to walk off any job.

Yes, it IS about breaking a strike. I would NEVER break a strike. I would go somewhere else to work first. I have respect for fellow workers, respect that you do not understand.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:57 pm 
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If the workers refuse to show up to work because management cannot reach an agreement with labor, then yes the company has the right and obligation to it's owners and creditors to terminate the striking workers and replace them. I do support that right of the company to do what is in their best interest. Although as I said that would not be my first response but rather a last resort. I also support the right of the workers to do what is in their best interest. If they cannot work things out then there is no alternative but for them to part ways.

You could have said that to begin with. Your first sentence is all that is needed. You don't believe the law should respect striking workers, and should instead support the ultimate right of capital over people. The only right you respect is the rights of companies. You think the rights of owners and creditors are superior to the rights of workers. Even when it comes to panic buttons.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:05 pm 
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Yes, it IS about breaking a strike. I would NEVER break a strike. I would go somewhere else to work first. I have respect for fellow workers, respect that you do not understand.


If I take a job that is a "contract" in my mind. Whether or not I breach that agreement is up to me. Not you. Not the union. Not my fellow employees. If you feel obligated to the union. Thats okay with me. It's your choice. It isn't about respect for fellow workers. It's about keeping my word and honoring my commitments. If I committed to join a union, I would pay the fees and be as supportive as I could. The one reason I would find it hard to join such an organization is because I don't want anyone to tell me to walk off a job. That's my decision. So I'm not going to commit to an organization that would expect me to make a decision I would not otherwise make.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:11 pm 
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If I take a job that is a "contract" in my mind. Whether or not I breach that agreement is up to me. Not you. Not the union. Not my fellow employees. If you feel obligated to the union. Thats okay with me. It's your choice. It isn't about respect for fellow workers. It's about keeping my word and honoring my commitments. If I committed to join a union, I would pay the fees and be as supportive as I could. The one reason I would find it hard to join such an organization is because I don't want anyone to tell me to walk off a job. That's my decision. So I'm not going to commit to an organization that would expect me to make a decision I would not otherwise make.

People have died on picket lines for the rights you take for granted today. Strikers have given so much to give this nation a strong middle class. To cross a picket line, as I say, and become a strikebreaker is one of the most selfish things a person can do in their working life. You take what so many others have sacrificed to give you and you piss all over it.

Companies didn't give you what you have out of the goodness of their hearts. You think you deserve it, not understanding what lives of workers - ALL people who draw a wage - owe to them. You aren't given this because you deserve it, you get it because of those who came before you.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:12 pm 
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You could have said that to begin with. Your first sentence is all that is needed. You don't believe the law should respect striking workers, and should instead support the ultimate right of capital over people. The only right you respect is the rights of companies. You think the rights of owners and creditors are superior to the rights of workers. Even when it comes to panic buttons.


Actually, it's not whether someone's right are superior or not. You have every right to quit your job if you choose. You have every right to bargain for wages with your employer. You have every right to organize. You have every right to have a union negotiate a contract for you. The company has every right to contract and do what is in its own best interest as well. They don't own you and you don't own them. You are selling labor and they are buying labor. I would agree that both parties should bargain in good faith, but not every negotiation results in an agreement. Never has. You can't pass a law to make sure it does. People don't always agree. You can only hope that they act in good faith. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

We do have a right to disagree.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:15 pm 
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The Ludlow Massacre:

the Colorado National Guard and Colorado Fuel and Iron Company guards attacked a tent colony of 1,200 striking coal miners and their families at Ludlow, Colorado, on April 20, 1914, with the National Guard using machine guns to fire into the colony. About two dozen people, including miners' wives and children, were killed. The chief owner of the mine, John D. Rockefeller, Jr., was widely criticized for having orchestrated the massacre.

Note the wording: John D was "widely criticized" - for the murder of women and children. Of course, no one was ever prosecuted for those murders.

This is the right wing's view of the rights of capital, and no rights for workers.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:17 pm 
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Actually, it's not whether someone's right are superior or not. You have every right to quit your job if you choose. You have every right to bargain for wages with your employer. You have every right to organize. You have every right to have a union negotiate a contract for you. The company has every right to contract and do what is in its own best interest as well. They don't own you and you don't own them. You are selling labor and they are buying labor. I would agree that both parties should bargain in good faith, but not every negotiation results in an agreement. Never has. You can't pass a law to make sure it does. People don't always agree. You can only hope that they act in good faith. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

We do have a right to disagree.

Again, this is all blowing smoke. If you believe the company ultimately has the right to fire the strikers and permanently replace them, then you don't believe in the rights of workers, period. Nothing more needs to be said.

*edit to add* It's kind of like the "rights" of the Student Council in middle school. They have rights to make pronouncements, until they piss off the Principle. Then they don't have any rights.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:21 pm 
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People have died on picket lines for the rights you take for granted today. Strikers have given so much to give this nation a strong middle class. To cross a picket line, as I say, and become a strikebreaker is one of the most selfish things a person can do in their working life. You take what so many others have sacrificed to give you and you piss all over it.

Companies didn't give you what you have out of the goodness of their hearts. You think you deserve it, not understanding what lives of workers - ALL people who draw a wage - owe to them. You aren't given this because you deserve it, you get it because of those who came before you.


You act as if every strike is a good strike. You act as if every union is a good union. You act as if every recommendation to come out of a union is a good idea. They aren't. Many are but quite a few aren't. I have watched plants close growing up and men and women who are in their 50's have to go out and start over because they supported a strike. So not every decision turns out great and not every decision is a good one. The people who run unions are human beings and are not always right. So I reserve the right to make my own decisions. It isn't about pissing on anything. My obligation is to do what I think is right. Not what you think is right and not what 51% of my fellow workers think is right and not what my employer thinks is right. If that bothers you, then you will just have to be bothered.


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