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 Post subject: Year of the Revolution
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:21 pm 
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The fight for human survival will take a revolution. We used to play for silver, now we play for lives. Some are waking up to it.

Barnyard Story
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Good Morning, Good Morning
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Quote:
I listen for your footsteps
Coming up the drive.
Listen for your footsteps
But they don't arrive.
Waiting for your knock, dear
On my old front door.
I don't hear it,
Does it mean you don't love me anymore?
I hear the clock a'ticking,
On the mantel shelf.
See the hands a'moving,
But I'm by myself.
I wonder where you are tonight,
And why I'm by myself.
I don't see you,
Does it mean you don't love me anymore?
Don't pass me by, don't make me cry, don't make me blue.
'Cause you know darling, I love only you.
You'll never know it hurt me so,
I hate to see you go.
Don't pass me by, don't make me cry.
I'm sorry that I doubted you,
I was so unfair.
You were in a car crash,
And you lost your hair.
You said that you would be late
About an hour or two.
I said, "That's alright, I'm waiting here,
Just waiting to hear from you".
Don't pass me by, don't make me cry, don't make me blue.
'Cause you know darling, I love only you.
You'll never know it hurt me so,
I hate to see you go.
Don't pass me by, don't make me cry.
Don't pass me by, don't make me cry, don't make me blue.
'Cause you know darling, I love only you.
You'll never know it hurt me so,
I hate to see you go.
Don't pass me by, don't make me cry.
Songwriters: Richard Starkey



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TYT
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We'll see.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:01 pm 
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www.youtube.com Video from : www.youtube.com


Quote:
......I come because gaurds have been posted to keep out the hope of the age.......

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:52 pm 
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Black Lives Rising

Quote:
Ruby Sales, the legendary civil rights activist, and Traci Blackmon, a spiritual leader of the Black Lives Movement, talk about being born into the tradition of youth uprisings. For generations, black youths have sacrificed their lives in service of social and racial justice. Ruby and Traci share their anguish, their inspiration, and their hopes for the future.


Video at link

on the value of generational diversity

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Black Lives Rising



Video at link

on the value of generational diversity

I'll tell ya.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:10 pm 
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Bernie wins!

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:52 pm 
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The media reports "very interesting" stories,... "The California forest fires",... "Hurricanes" (which hurricane season will be coming up shortly), ...but never connects the dots... "Climate Change".

Noam Chomsky on Mass Media Obsession with Russia & the Stories Not Being Covered in the Trump Era

https://www.democracynow.org/2018/7/27/ ... _obsession

Quote:
So, of all Trump’s policies, the one that is the most dangerous and destructive, in fact poses an existential threat, is his policies on climate change, on global warming. That’s really destructive. And we’re facing an imminent threat, not far removed, of enormous damage. The effects are already visible but nothing like what’s going to come. A sea level rise of a couple of feet will be massively destructive. It will make today’s immigration issues look like trivialities. And it’s not that the administration is unaware of this. So, Donald Trump, for example, is perfectly aware of the dangerous effects, in the short term, of global warming. So, for example, recently he applied to the government of Ireland for permission to build a wall to protect his golf course in Ireland from rising sea levels. And Rex Tillerson, who was supposed to be the adult in the room before he was thrown out, as CEO of ExxonMobil, was devoting enormous resources to climate change denial, although he had, sitting on his desk, the reports of ExxonMobil scientists, who, since the '70s, in fact, were on the forefront of warning of the dire effects of this accelerating phenomenon. I don't know what word in the language—I can’t find one—that applies to people of that kind, who are willing to sacrifice the literal—the existence of organized human life, not in the distant future, so they can put a few more dollars in highly overstuffed pockets. The word “evil” doesn’t begin to approach it. These are the kinds of issues that should be under discussion. Instead, what’s being—there is a focus on what I believe are marginalia.


...

Quote:
I mean, one of the most elementary principles of a functioning democracy is that elected representatives should be responsive to those who elected them. There’s nothing more elementary than that. But we know very well that that is simply not the case in the United States. There’s ample literature in mainstream academic political science simply comparing voters’ attitudes with the policies pursued by their representatives, and it shows that for a large majority of the population, they’re basically disenfranchised. Their own representatives pay no attention to their voices. They listen to the voices of the famous 1 percent—the rich and the powerful, the corporate sector. The elections—Tom Ferguson’s stellar work has demonstrated, very conclusively, that for a long period, way back, U.S. elections have been pretty much bought. You can predict the outcome of a presidential or congressional election with remarkable precision by simply looking at campaign spending. That’s only one part of it. Lobbyists practically write legislation in congressional offices. In massive ways, the concentrated private capital, corporate sector, super wealth, intervene in our elections, massively, overwhelmingly, to the extent that the most elementary principles of democracy are undermined. Now, of course, all that is technically legal, but that tells you something about the way the society functions. So, if you’re concerned with our elections and how they operate and how they relate to what would happen in a democratic society, taking a look at Russian hacking is absolutely the wrong place to look. Well, you see occasionally some attention to these matters in the media, but very minor as compared with the extremely marginal question of Russian hacking.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:20 pm 
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Good for Chomsky. But the Russian threat is very real and the main driver of the entire picture and the underlying concerns expressed. This thread, from Bernie praise to Chomsky's downplay, smells pretty Kremliny.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:24 pm 
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Good for Chomsky. But the Russian threat is very real and the main driver of the entire picture and the underlying concerns expressed. This thread, from Bernie praise to Chomsky's downplay, smells pretty Kremliny.

Ha. You know better. We've got problems. If you want to focus on Russia, go right ahead. Chomsky is only saying that the media ignores larger important issues instead of Russia's interference.

Bernie is not our enemy. He is a ...I believe the word is... progressive, that will combat neoliberalism that is destroying our planet. That you should know. Democrats are catching on.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:52 am 
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So, if you’re concerned with our elections and how they operate and how they relate to what would happen in a democratic society, taking a look at Russian hacking is absolutely the wrong place to look. Well, you see occasionally some attention to these matters in the media, but very minor as compared with the extremely marginal question of Russian hacking.


:problem:

Uh-huh.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:12 am 
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Ha. You know better. We've got problems. If you want to focus on Russia, go right ahead. Chomsky is only saying that the media ignores larger important issues instead of Russia's interference.

Bernie is not our enemy. He is a ...I believe the word is... progressive, that will combat neoliberalism that is destroying our planet. That you should know. Democrats are catching on.


Russia IS the primary threat - a serious threat to American democracy and world stability; that is a fact. Trump's dangerous policies that lead to the "larger, more important issues," are the result of Russia. I notice Chomksy's been downplaying and defending Russia and Trump's relationship with Putin for awhile now on various channels, including Russian Media outlets. He's been claiming concern for Russia "is a joke" and that other countries do worse. He's been pushing the importance of Trump and Putin's relationship and he's been spreading fear about nuclear war if we don't saddle up with Russia. Chomsky is spouting pure Kremlin propaganda. He gets the big red buzzer.

Here are the facts. Russia plays both sides.

Bernie's had a red flag attached to him from the start.

-Ted Devine/Manafort connection
-Refuses to release his tax returns
-Runs as a Dem when he's not a Dem, then continously tries to divide and create division within the party
- Bernie Bros and Bernie bots spread the same messages as Trump/Putin Bots. Bernie bots constantly attack, just like Trump/putin bots. Horseshoe theory.
- Bernie refuses to vote for Russian sanctions and the Maginsky act

Jill Stein and the Greens are also bad actors, meant to divide votes and create division. Just look at the garbage she spews siding with Trump over Clinton. Look at her visits to Russia and her seat at Putin's table. Look at her grifting nature, sowing doubt about the election regarding machine hacking, then pocketing the cash.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:25 am 
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Unfortunately, at this point, Russia is part of the problem on climate change.

Seems senior Russian kleptocrats are interested in arctic oil, and seem willing to let the arctic ice melt to get to it, regardless of what that will do to the rest of the planet. Or themselves ...

Russia Bets Big on Arctic Oil
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-Gene ... c-Oil.html

BTW, part of that "minor" dossier suggests Trump & Russia made a deal over shares of Rosneft/Gazprom, regarding arctic oil exploration.

Is Trump merely ignorant on climate change (probably), or in refusing to deal with the climate crisis, aiding certain Russian ... interests? There could be billions of dollars in it for the bandits ...

Inquiring minds want to know ...

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:28 am 
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Russia IS the primary threat - a serious threat to American democracy and world stability; that is a fact. Trump's dangerous policies that lead to the "larger, more important issues," are the result of Russia. I notice Chomksy's been downplaying and defending Russia and Trump's relationship with Putin for awhile now on various channels, including Russian Media outlets. He's been claiming concern for Russia "is a joke" and that other countries do worse. He's been pushing the importance of Trump and Putin's relationship and he's been spreading fear about nuclear war if we don't saddle up with Russia. Chomsky is spouting pure Kremlin propaganda. He gets the big red buzzer.

Here are the facts. Russia plays both sides.

Bernie's had a red flag attached to him from the start.

-Ted Devine/Manafort connection
-Refuses to release his tax returns
-Runs as a Dem when he's not a Dem, then continously tries to divide and create division within the party
- Bernie Bros and Bernie bots spread the same messages as Trump/Putin Bots. Bernie bots constantly attack, just like Trump/putin bots. Horseshoe theory.
- Bernie refuses to vote for Russian sanctions and the Maginsky act

Jill Stein and the Greens are also bad actors, meant to divide votes and create division. Just look at the garbage she spews siding with Trump over Clinton. Look at her visits to Russia and her seat at Putin's table. Look at her grifting nature, sowing doubt about the election regarding machine hacking, then pocketing the cash.


Mmph, Fox is a Stein voter. He's never gonna look at her critically. :problem:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:14 pm 
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Unfortunately, at this point, Russia is part of the problem on climate change.

Seems senior Russian kleptocrats are interested in arctic oil, and seem willing to let the arctic ice melt to get to it, regardless of what that will do to the rest of the planet. Or themselves ...


Bingo! Russia IS the problem on climate change. Arctic drilling would make their minor economy into another Saudi Arabia, and everyone with a buck to make wants a piece of the action.

Obviously it becomes in their national interest to keep the rest of the planet on the oil teat by any means necessary.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:14 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:25 am 
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It's always the darkest before the dawn, they say.

Stella Blue. Why not?

"Nothing comes for free."

Stella Blue
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"The future's here, we are on our own."

Dead & Co.
www.youtube.com Video from : www.youtube.com


There is a tremendous reaction from the audience when Bob Weir inserts the following line: "You can buy the whole goddam government, now!"

Words by John Perry Barlow; music by Bob Weir

Quote:
Picture a bright blue ball, just spinning, spinnin free,
Dizzy with eternity.
Paint it with a skin of sky,
Brush in some clouds and sea,
Call it home for you and me.
A peaceful place or so it looks from space,
A closer look reveals the human race.
Full of hope, full of grace
Is the human face,
But afraid we may lay our home to waste.

There's a fear down here we can't forget.
Hasn't got a name just yet.
Always awake, always around,
Singing ashes, ashes, all fall down.
Ashes, ashes, all fall down.

Now watch as the ball revolves
And the nighttime falls.
Again the hunt begins,
Again the bloodwind calls.
By and by, the morning sun will rise,
But the darkness never goes
From some men's eyes.
It strolls the sidewalks and it rolls the streets,
Staking turf, dividing up meat.
Nightmare spook, piece of heat,
It's you and me.
You and me.
Click flash blade in ghetto night,
Rudies looking for a fight.
Rat cat alley, roll them bones.
Need that cash to feed that jones.
And the politicians throwin' stones,
Singing ashes, ashes, all fall down.
Ashes, ashes, all fall down.

[Bridge:]
Commissars and pin-stripe bosses
Roll the dice.
Any way they fall,
Guess who gets to pay the price.
Money green or proletarian gray,
Selling guns 'stead of food today.
So the kids they dance
And shake their bones,
And the politicians throwin' stones,
Singing ashes, ashes, all fall down.
Ashes, ashes, all fall down.
Heartless powers try to tell us
What to think.
If the spirit's sleeping,
Then the flesh is ink
History's page will thus be carved in stone.
And we are here, and we are on our own
On our own.
On our own.
On our own.
[Instrumental]

If the game is lost,
Then we're all the same.
No one left to place or take the blame.
We can leave this place and empty stone
Or that shinin' ball we used to call our home.
So the kids they dance
And shake their bones,
And the politicians throwin' stones,
Singing ashes, ashes, all fall down.
Ashes, ashes, all fall down.

[Bridge two:]
Shipping powders back and forth
Singing black goes south and white comes north.
In a whole world full of petty wars
Singing I got mine and you got yours.
And the current fashion sets the pace,
Lose your step, fall out of grace.
And the radical, he rant and rage,
Singing someone's got to turn the page.
And the rich man in his summer home,
Singing just leave well enough alone.
But his pants are down, his cover's blown...
And the politicians throwin' stones,
So the kids they dance
And shake their bones,
And it's all too clear we're on our own.
Singing ashes, ashes, all fall down.
Ashes, ashes, all fall down.

Picture a bright blue ball,
Just spinnin', spinnin, free.
Dizzy with the possibilities.
Ashes, ashes, all fall down.
Ashes, ashes, all fall down.
Ashes, ashes, all fall down.
Ashes, ashes, all fall down.
Ashes, ashes, all fall down


A perfect follow up, which I heard before, is Not Fade Away. It resolves, with love that's got to be real.

Not Fade Away
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:06 am 
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Ha. You know better. We've got problems. If you want to focus on Russia, go right ahead. Chomsky is only saying that the media ignores larger important issues instead of Russia's interference.

Bernie is not our enemy. He is a ...I believe the word is... progressive, that will combat neoliberalism that is destroying our planet. That you should know. Democrats are catching on.


Ha. You know better, and you got all your eggs in the Bernie basket. Ha...indeed. Of course we got problems, we're mankind...we got a problem up every sleeve. But the biggest problem of all is that the country has proven itself to be a smidgen short of half full of white christian confederate assholes who would vote for a deranged animal like Donald Trump and who continue to vote for and support Republican politicians who enable his criminal enterprise. A kike socialist isn't going to win over a single one of these people. The people are the problem.

According to the likes of you, anybody who doesn't see Bernie Sanders as the fucking messiah, is calling Bernie the enemy. Bullshit, in spades.

Bernie Sanders is a politician who promises shit he knows he can't deliver...like every other vote whoring politician in the country. Here's the problem with Bernie...running in Democratic primaries, and when he wins the primary he rejects the Democratic Party. He's all about Bernie. It''s nothing special. It's what politicians do. He's almost as narcissistic as you know who...just without the billions and the misogyny.

So he says all the right stuff to satisfy those you consider to be "progressive" enough. Golly gee Fox...I sure hope I qualify.

So it's lyrics and lyrics and lyrics. OK, here's some lyrics.

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

or

They put Jesus on a cross
They put a hole in JFK
They put Hiltler in the drivers seat
And looked the other way
We got the funky western civilization

Flush out your headgear Fox, neither the problem, nor the solution is some flavor of politicians, the problem is that mankind is the missing link between apes and humans.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:32 am 
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An actual revolution is always about more than one person and their ambitions, however noble.

I think, too much sometimes, we want leaders, and to be led, which is why we wind up with authoritarian dick-taters. On the left and the right.

No, I don't think Bernie is one, or even one in the making, but Nicholas Maduro is.

And don't even get me going on Kim. He's just a Dear Leader leading his people to the cliff.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:12 am 
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An actual revolution is always about more than one person and their ambitions, however noble.

I think, too much sometimes, we want leaders, and to be led, which is why we wind up with authoritarian dick-taters. On the left and the right.

No, I don't think Bernie is one, or even one in the making, but Nicholas Maduro is.

And don't even get me going on Kim. He's just a Dear Leader leading his people to the cliff.


It's a barbarous world, perfesser. And the barbarity is on the hands of the prevailing species. Its built in...and I highly doubt that any sort of political system is an effective intervention against it. What will stop the barbarity? Pandemic, or some other cataclysmic forces powerful enough to rid the orb of the species. Turn it back into the lovely little green corner of the milky way that it oughta be.

Bernie. :roll: WTF is Bernie gonna do about it?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:30 pm 
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Here is something more interesting that arguing a strawman.

www.youtube.com Video from : www.youtube.com


Economic professor explains how governments sustain economic systems, and when they start failing, then it results in revolt against the governments and revolution. Going back to the basics it is easier to understand and leaves out personalities, such as Bernie the dragon slayer.

The revolution going on is already happening in the Democratic party, but it will continue with or without it. It would be easier if it were "with".

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Agreed that something's happening. The longer a historical situation stays stuck, the more energy builds up. When it releases, which it always does, you get the stuff where they tell the undergrads to take good notes because it will be on the final for sure.

I know Starship is a sellout band, but these are still awfully good lyrics (from memory):

Fast Buck Freddie

He said, Hold a dollar bill up to the mirror
And I'll show you something funny
It's only a fast buck, but oooooo
It's so hard to make that kind of money.

Now it's hard to get serious when the joker is laughing
And by now the joker is wild
It's hard to keep laughing when a rich man's reflection
Looks like a gun that's gonna smile

...

How long, how long would you like it?
How long, how long will it be?
How long, how long can we take it?
How long before we take it back, you and me?

Think fast!
Think fast!

I was thinking that I should be singing along

Think fast! I think he's coming thru
Think fast! he thinks he's running you
I was thinking that I should be singing along

Think fast! he thinks he's coming in
Think fast, I think he's wearing thin
I was thinking that I should be singing along

Think fast! he's taking all your time
Think fast, you know he's out of line

But who can?
You know you can, you will
You know you can

Sing it now while you still
Sing it now while you still
Sing it now while you still have a song.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:13 pm 
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This is the revolution that Wolff proposes.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/ ... -economics

His answer is simple, too. It's not revolution. It's instead a taking over of workplaces – thus controlling the means of production – by workers, who would then organise and have a direct say in running their own companies. Such worker-run businesses, he argues, would eliminate the stock market and boards of directors. On the other hand, they would be unlikely to send themselves to China to reduce labour costs, or pay top executives millions of dollars in bonuses or pollute the environments around their own workplace.

[snip][end]

That revolution could happen tomorrow. In essence, of course, I know this is what Marx originally advocated ... workers seizing the means of production. Not per se political, but economic revolution.

In fact, workers don't have to take over their existing workplaces (I assume their bosses, managers, and stockholders would resist). They can form worker-based cooperatives and do it tomorrow. Form a million Mondragons.

What's stopping them?

I'm in favor, BTW, of workplaces being more democratic, but I don't think we have to abolish capitalism for this to be the case. I like Wolff. But let's be honest, Prof. Even the French Socialist Party isn't actually advocating actual socialism any more, just social democracy. You do know that? And if they can do it, so can I, as a lefty social democrat.

Thing is, that does probably require the government/state to take some action.

Back to politics:

[from Wikipedia]
A founding member of the Green Party of New Haven, Connecticut, Wolff was the party's mayoral candidate in 1985.[16] In 2011, he called for the establishment of a broad-based left-wing mass party in the United States.[17] Wolff, especially since 2008, gives many public lectures throughout the United States and other countries. He is regular lecturer at the Brecht Forum. Wolff is often a guest on television and radio news programs, and, within the U.S., has appeared on a variety of programs, as well as writing for a number of publications and websites.[12] Wolff hosts a weekly radio program on economics and society, Economic Update, at WBAI in New York City.[18]

One of his students, George Papandreou, went on to become Prime Minister of Greece from 2009 to 2011. Wolff remembers Papandreou as a student who "sought then to become both a sophisticated and a socialist economist."[19] However, CUNY Economics professor Costas Panayotakis observed that "after being elected Greek prime minister in the fall of 2009 on a platform that excoriated austerity as the wrong kind of policy to be adopted at a time of deep economic crisis, George Papandreou has reversed himself and, faced with a debt crisis, called in the International Monetary Fund and imposed the most brutal austerity program the country has ever seen."[20] (*)

[snip]

In July 2015, Wolff endorsed Massachusetts physician and Green Party candidate Jill Stein for President.

[snip][end]

(*) Looks like he may have slept through some lectures.

So, allow me to discuss Prof. Wolff's political ideas, if not his economic ones.

OK, Mr. Wolff, allow me a critique of your political strategy. Let us begin. How many Congressional seats have the Greens won in Congress since 1970? Is that number nonzero? I believe it is not.

How many Green party presidential candidates have gotten over 5% of the national vote? Is that number nonzero?

How familiar are you on the literature about third parties in U.S. history and their historical electoral success? (I have to wonder.) Would you not agree, Prof. Wolff, that your strategy, without changing the way we vote here in the U.S. (plurality voting), is extremely foolish? Have you read any William Poundstone, Prof. Wolff?

Here's my last question to you, Prof. Wolff. We can leave the U.S. Can you name a European political party (i.e. a Communist party) calling for the abolition of capitalism (the French and Spanish Socialists are NOT) that has won a sizable amount of seats in their parliament? I can't.

I think my critiques are done, for now.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:27 pm 
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I doubt that Americans, for all their talk, are up to an old-school revolution where armed masses overthrow the government. That has consequences, and people need to be ready for things like economic disruption, fighting over food, cholera epidemics, and such.

What the professor proposes sounds like a way less extreme version of anarcho-syndicalism, and possibly workable. Mondragon has had its critics, but there's no arguing the fact that it works better than any of our left wing experiments ever did. It actually produces marketable goods at competitive prices, while providing the workers more control over their lives.

It would have to be adapted, of course, to the unalterable fact that Americans tend to be extremely self-centered. There's way less sense of the "we" here than in Europe.

Also, the professor is offering valid critiques of Wolff's ideas. These need to be taken seriously. Third parties don't usually fare well in the wretched antiquated US system that we're stuck with and need to take seriously when formulating tactics. Usually they make the problem worse. There are exceptions, but not many. I know that the Republicans started as a third party, but those were different times.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:35 pm 
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Again, I will note, Mondragon sells their goods for profit. How they distribute the profits differs from a typical business, but it is not against the idea of selling or marketing commodities for profit.

Most worker co-ops in the U.S. (typically food co-ops) also sell what they carry for profit.

I will note that I agree with GoU: the best way within the American system to make workplaces more democratic is to form a labor union which allows workers a seat, or at least an input, into company decisions ... I would like Germany's system where the government MANDATES labor union seats at the business' decision roundtable especially decisions affecting workers ... but I don't see us getting it here.

I do think Americans have a very individualistic culture, but as a social scientist, I think this has a lot to do with our socialization and our institutions, as well as historical events and processes. The interesting thing is the Scandinavian societies some Americans admire are only slightly more communitarian. They are not as collectivist as Asian Confucian societies.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:42 pm 
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I know Mondragon is still a for-profit entity. I've been in and out of things like food co-ops, and generally my experience has been that their success depends on how much the people in them are willing to form group consensus rather than just blab non-negotiable ideas at meetings. Generally the radical left wingers are the worst at this, since they have often made up their minds that their particular political analysis is the one that everyone else needs to follow.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:48 pm 
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Also, the professor is offering valid critiques of Wolff's ideas. These need to be taken seriously. Third parties don't usually fare well in the wretched antiquated US system that we're stuck with and need to take seriously when formulating tactics. Usually they make the problem worse. There are exceptions, but not many. I know that the Republicans started as a third party, but those were different times.


The problem is not just the electoral college. Third party candidates would not win even if we had a national popular vote. Not when they get, as Jill Stein did in 2016, 1% of the national popular vote.

The problem is we don't use a parliamentary system or any kind of proportional representation, and we also don't use ranked-choice voting or IRV or other systems. In a plurality voting system, which is what we have, voting for a third party usually generates spoiler effects in helping who you want the least. BTW, this is exactly why the Republican party enjoys ratfucking by secretly supporting Green and other third party candidates. They've already done that several times this year. I've mentioned examples. BTW2, once in a while, the Democrats play the same game and support Libertarian candidates that can't win but do take away votes from the Republican, so I'm not saying both sides don't do it.

Please read William Poundstone's Gaming the Vote. Best book I've ever seen on this topic. Plurality voting is the core problem. It might not require a Constitutional amendment, but it will require passing a lot of new laws about how we vote.

But, again I will note, for those who think things would change dramatically if we had a parliamentary system, where I will grant the Greens in Europe can often get 15-20% of parliamentary seats, bear in mind that most countries with parliaments pretty much oscillate between a center-left coalition and a center-right coalition governing their country, which is not ALL that different from here.

Recent unexpected results, like the Five Star-Northern League government in Italy, often have certain foreign fingerprints of interference on them.

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