RadioFreeLiberal.com

Smart Voices, Be Heard
It is currently Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:23 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: The Center Cannot Hold
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:39 pm 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:31 pm
Posts: 3838
Quote:
"The Sound Of Silence"

Hello darkness, my old friend
I've come to talk with you again
Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was sleeping
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence

In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone
'Neath the halo of a streetlamp
I turned my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light
That split the night
And touched the sound of silence

And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more
People talking without speaking
People hearing without listening
People writing songs that voices never share
No one dare
Disturb the sound of silence

"Fools" said I, "You do not know
Silence like a cancer grows
Hear my words that I might teach you
Take my arms that I might reach you"
But my words like silent raindrops fell
And echoed in the wells of silence

And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made
And the sign flashed out its warning
In the words that it was forming
And the sign said "The words of the prophets
Are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls
And whispered in the sounds of silence"


How Fascism Works

https://www.democracynow.org/2018/10/11 ... stanley_on

Quote:
In his new book “How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them,” Yale professor Jason Stanley warns about the dangers of normalizing fascist politics, writing, “What normalization does is transform the morally extraordinary into the ordinary. It makes us able to tolerate what was once intolerable by making it seem as if this is the way things have always been.” We speak with Jason Stanley in New York.


The reason the center cannot hold is there is no center there.

Politics are sharply divided. Which side is winning? Well, at the moment, there is no question about it. The right is winning and it's going global.

So, past strategies haven't worked. The strategy that we should allow ourselves to join the sides together to make a middle hasn't worked because the right has to give up their advantages to share in that effort, which they will never do.

It is commonsense, and they are not stupid enough to fall for that trick.

Therefore, future strategies will have to include going back to the left where we belong. Liberal's bad name has to be reformed, really because there is no wiggle room.

It was a fool's mission living in the shadow of the mind.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/109 ... annot_Hold

_________________
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_8wdvTjq8


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:28 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 11784
Location: Sunny South Florida
That line is originally from a poem by W.B. Yeats, "The Second Coming," written in 1919.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.


Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

[snip][end]

Yeats is referring to post-WW I Europe, and also the Irish Easter Rising, drawing upon Christian apocalyptic imagery.

The lines I've bolded are frequently cited as the dilemma of modern politics.

Yeats was hard to define politically. He supported Irish nationalism, but by the 30s ... was taking a weird turn. (Don't get me going on Ezra Pound.)

[from Wiki]
In the 1930s Yeats was fascinated with the authoritarian, anti-democratic, nationalist movements of Europe, and he composed several marching songs for the far right Blueshirts, although they were never used. He was a fierce opponent of individualism and political liberalism, and saw the fascist movements as a triumph of public order and the needs of the national collective over petty individualism. On the other hand, he was also an elitist who abhorred the idea of mob-rule, and saw democracy as a threat to good governance and public order.[56] After the Blueshirt movement began to falter in Ireland, he distanced himself somewhat from his previous views, but maintained a preference for authoritarian and nationalist leadership.

So: not a good political role model for antifascism.

As to your point about not normalizing fascism, well, I did tell a certain Timmeh to stop normalizing the fascist tactics of Trump. I absolutely agree.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:38 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 11784
Location: Sunny South Florida
Nice interview with Prof. Stanley at Vox as well as Democracy Now.

https://www.vox.com/2018/9/19/17847110/ ... on-stanley

Sean Illing
This is probably a good time to pivot to the glittering elephant in the room: Donald Trump. Is he a fascist?

Jason Stanley
I make the case in my book that he practices fascist politics. Now, that doesn’t mean his government is a fascist government. For one thing, I think it’s very difficult to say what a fascist government is.

For another thing, I think the current movement of leaders who use these techniques (Vladimir Putin in Russia, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in Turkey, Viktor Orbán in Hungary, to name a few) all seek to keep the trappings of democratic institutions, but their goal is to reorient them around their own cult of personality.

Again, I wouldn’t claim — not yet, at least — that Trump is presiding over a fascist government, but he is very clearly using fascist techniques to excite his base and erode liberal democratic institutions, and that’s very troubling.

But the blame there is as much on the Republican Party as it is on Trump, because none of this would matter if they were willing to check Trump. So far, they’ve chosen loyalty to Trump over loyalty to rule of law.

[snip][end]

I agree with all these points.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:16 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:01 pm
Posts: 16315
Trump is straight out of the Mussolini fascist playbook as pointed out by Madeleine Albright in her Fascism: A Warning.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:33 am 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:31 pm
Posts: 3838
"The center cannot hold" is reference to a battle field. It is often used for a number of things. Here, I am alluding to a couple of things; the battle between the left and the right side of politics, and the lost of identity of the two sides.

All issues are clearly divided left and right. Some ideals of the left are chipped away for some misguide idea like "gun control" can be spared to enchant the right to switch party loyalty. Maybe the reason it was considered necessary was because two parties can't encompass every issues. That is unfortunate, but it is an identity crisis for the Democrats and a major problem focusing on major issues, like climate change. Piecing together a coalition has failed dismally.

As far as our country not yet fascist, that thinking is arguable.

_________________
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_8wdvTjq8


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:25 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 17520

How Fascism Works

https://www.democracynow.org/2018/10/11 ... stanley_on



The reason the center cannot hold is there is no center there.

Politics are sharply divided. Which side is winning? Well, at the moment, there is no question about it. The right is winning and it's going global.

So, past strategies haven't worked. The strategy that we should allow ourselves to join the sides together to make a middle hasn't worked because the right has to give up their advantages to share in that effort, which they will never do.

It is commonsense, and they are not stupid enough to fall for that trick.

Therefore, future strategies will have to include going back to the left where we belong. Liberal's bad name has to be reformed, really because there is no wiggle room.

It was a fool's mission living in the shadow of the mind.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/109 ... annot_Hold


Can you name even one issue you are willing to meet in the middle on? Everytime a dem takes a moderate position they get branded a DINO. Everytime a Republican takes a moderate position they get branded a RINO.

_________________
"my choice is for people like you to be deported -Ike Bana 5/13/18

"within weeks of being rid of the likes of you, rid of every fucking one of you,we would begin to see what kind of country this ought to be" Ike Bana 6/14/18


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:29 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:27 pm
Posts: 8283
Location: miles from nowhere

Can you name even one issue you are willing to meet in the middle on? Everytime a dem takes a moderate position they get branded a DINO. Everytime a Republican takes a moderate position they get branded a RINO.

can you name even one issue?

_________________
bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

The new motto of the USA: Unum de multis. Out of one, many.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:39 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 11784
Location: Sunny South Florida
All issues are clearly divided left and right. Some ideals of the left are chipped away for some misguide idea like "gun control" can be spared to enchant the right to switch party loyalty.


I'm sorry ... I'm not sure I understood that sentence. I don't know if you meant to claim that gun control is a misguided idea for the Left. I happen not to think so. I believe it flows naturally from our concern for public health.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:51 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 11784
Location: Sunny South Florida
BTW, since the 70s, many political scientists have argued that the idea of political ideology as a left-right line with a center should be replaced with a Cartesian plane, as this better encompasses libertarians and communitarians. The two axes are defined by social freedom vs. regulation and economic freedom vs. regulation.

"Liberals," at least in the U.S., tend to favor greater social freedom, but also more economic regulation. (As I've said many times, you might notice things are different in Europe where Liberal parties might be what we would call in the U.S. libertarian.) Conservatives the opposite.

This is called the Nolan Chart, after Christopher Nolan, who formulated it in the 70s ... of course, btw, he was a libertarian.

Image

The one quibble I have with this chart is the opposite of a libertarian is a communitarian ... authoritarians are at the extreme end of that corner. Libertarians emphasize individual freedom and liberty, communitarians collective and social obligations and responsibility. But not all communitarians are authoritarians, even if libertarians think so.

We could also quibble over differentiating between left and right libertarians ... depends on their attitude toward capitalism.

I always ask people if they know where the terms "left" and "right wing" originated from. The answer, BTW, is in the French National Assembly shortly before the French Revolution, where Jacobins and Sans-Culottes sat to the left of the king, and those who were pro-aristocracy and pro-ancien regime and pro-monarchy sat to the right of the king. Later on, there would be Left and Right Hegelians, differentiated between having idealist and materialist interpretations of Hegel, but this is where they took their name from. You may know of the most famous of the Left Hegelians, Karl Marx.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:24 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:07 am
Posts: 10574

The reason the center cannot hold is there is no center there.


You're telling me I don't exist. :(

Stanley warned about the dangers of normalizing fascist politics. If this is the way NOT normalizing fascist politics is done then I recommend rethinking it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:43 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 11784
Location: Sunny South Florida
In the Nolan Chart, people in the center may often in fact be on one of the edges of the four corners. :D

It's a big region. Very few people are at the center of the center. :D

Research shows this is true of many centrists and independents in our country ... they are "leaners".

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:20 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:10 pm
Posts: 17554
Location: The blue parts of the map
1. It is true that a Cartesian model works a lot better than the 1-dimensional line used by the US. I've also seen that one with "centralized" at the top and "decentralized" at the bottom. For me, that works a lot better. You get a 4-quadrant model, and you don't enshrine "libertarianism" at the top as if it is the superior system. Left and right are still traditional, from the French National Assembly, as the professor so accurately notes.

1a. In this way, you can avoid the monolithic idea of "libertarian," since in the real world it really does divide into left-libertarian and right-libertarian. It also allows for left authoritarians, of whom there are many, especially in the old left which still has some Stalinists. In the anti-war movement, it was weird coalescing with people who would likely want you in a labor camp. However, it was effective. Once you're over the old models, such alliances become thinkable.

1b. Populists are a bit harder to classify, since they can range all the way from anarchists to fascists. I suspect we've seen that in all four quadrants.

2. Indeed, the middle is more like apolitical than anything, and it'll always be an imaginary majority. A real world situation lets people move around on the plot. It's a scattergun, not a rifle.

_________________
We used to hang our traitors. Now we elect them to lead us.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:27 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:07 am
Posts: 10574
In the Nolan Chart, people in the center may often in fact be on one of the edges of the four corners. :D

It's a big region. Very few people are at the center of the center. :D

Research shows this is true of many centrists and independents in our country ... they are "leaners".


I grew up real close to Four Corners. I could drive there and plant my foot on the brass survey marker and be standing on four states at once. :)

It was even more fun to run circles around it. :D


A funny thing is I learned how to sand cast silver there. People were there, interesting things can be learned from people wherever you may find them.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:47 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:27 pm
Posts: 8283
Location: miles from nowhere
1. It is true that a Cartesian model works a lot better than the 1-dimensional line used by the US. I've also seen that one with "centralized" at the top and "decentralized" at the bottom. For me, that works a lot better. You get a 4-quadrant model, and you don't enshrine "libertarianism" at the top as if it is the superior system. Left and right are still traditional, from the French National Assembly, as the professor so accurately notes.

1a. In this way, you can avoid the monolithic idea of "libertarian," since in the real world it really does divide into left-libertarian and right-libertarian. It also allows for left authoritarians, of whom there are many, especially in the old left which still has some Stalinists. In the anti-war movement, it was weird coalescing with people who would likely want you in a labor camp. However, it was effective. Once you're over the old models, such alliances become thinkable.

1b. Populists are a bit harder to classify, since they can range all the way from anarchists to fascists. I suspect we've seen that in all four quadrants.

2. Indeed, the middle is more like apolitical than anything, and it'll always be an imaginary majority. A real world situation lets people move around on the plot. It's a scattergun, not a rifle.

Agreed. It is similar to the concept of groups. People can and do belong to various groups depending upon the social situation. They can also change groups and move from group to group when said groups appear opposed to each other. Patriotism is one of the best examples of using groups for political purposes.

_________________
bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

The new motto of the USA: Unum de multis. Out of one, many.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:46 pm 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:31 pm
Posts: 3838
can you name even one issue?

+1
Good counter

As it is plain to see, I want the Democrats to get out of the Republican party. No, I don't agree with any Republican issues.

_________________
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_8wdvTjq8


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:50 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 11784
Location: Sunny South Florida
1a. In this way, you can avoid the monolithic idea of "libertarian," since in the real world it really does divide into left-libertarian and right-libertarian.


Well, yes, I of course agree. The problem is, though, the Libertarian Party in the U.S. is dominated only by Right-Libertarians who are pro-capitalism and pro-Ayn Rand, like the Kochs and Ron & Rand Paul. The other variety of libertarianism (anti-capitalist/leftist) is not an organized political force in the U.S. It's why so few are aware it exists.

Of course, it may be a good thing that Party's nominees, like Gary Johnson, aren't getting over 3% of the vote, either.

Quote:
It also allows for left authoritarians,


Seems obvious to me Nicholas Maduro is one.

What they're doing in NK is all over the map, "Juche" seems like Maoism mixed into a gumbo with cult of personality.

Quote:
1b. Populists are a bit harder to classify, since they can range all the way from anarchists to fascists. I suspect we've seen that in all four quadrants.


Think I've been saying since 2016 that "populism" has at least two varieties, and that Trump's anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual, anti-liberal "right populism" is very different from Sanders' anti-economic elite "left populism".... so different it really is kinda foolish to say they are both "populists" and leave it at that.

Quote:
2. Indeed, the middle is more like apolitical than anything, and it'll always be an imaginary majority. A real world situation lets people move around on the plot. It's a scattergun, not a rifle.


The fluid mobility of ideology is something political scientists have trouble analyzing, describing, and categorizing.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:02 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 17520
can you name even one issue?



I am solidly on the left on Healthcare and have commented on how to make "free college" actually work. By giving Gov't loans to students at 1% above prime. Making the SS administration in charge, paying back through payroll deduction and allowing the borrower up to 40 years to pay. [ if they choose]


Now how about you?

_________________
"my choice is for people like you to be deported -Ike Bana 5/13/18

"within weeks of being rid of the likes of you, rid of every fucking one of you,we would begin to see what kind of country this ought to be" Ike Bana 6/14/18


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:55 pm 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:27 pm
Posts: 8283
Location: miles from nowhere


I am solidly on the left on Healthcare and have commented on how to make "free college" actually work. By giving Gov't loans to students at 1% above prime. Making the SS administration in charge, paying back through payroll deduction and allowing the borrower up to 40 years to pay. [ if they choose]


Now how about you?

Congratulations. Your party wants nothing to do with either. Yet you claim the left is intractable. As for loans, where will the money come from?

_________________
bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

The new motto of the USA: Unum de multis. Out of one, many.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:48 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:10 pm
Posts: 17554
Location: The blue parts of the map
The professor stated, with considerable validity:
Quote:
Think I've been saying since 2016 that "populism" has at least two varieties, and that Trump's anti-immigrant, anti-intellectual, anti-liberal "right populism" is very different from Sanders' anti-economic elite "left populism".... so different it really is kinda foolish to say they are both "populists" and leave it at that.

Yes, that's a big change in my thinking that I made maybe a few months earlier. The observed situation definitely supports left-populism and right-populism, without needing to stretch one classification to somehow accommodate the Seattle WTO anarchists and the white power types in one definition.

All the Libertarian Party members that I know anything about in L.A. are entertainment industry grunts with "assistant" somewhere in their union job title. Mostly, they want to get rid of taxes and keep all their money for themselves, while legally strutting around carrying guns.

They've all been taking John Milius pills. Those are a combination of strong male hormones and Ayn Rand snake oil. It's a rather quaint political analysis peculiar to The Industry. It explains why most screenplays are the way they are. There's a strong Das Held resonance by way of Travis Bickle. Fortunately, they have even less political power than the left.

_________________
We used to hang our traitors. Now we elect them to lead us.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:04 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 11784
Location: Sunny South Florida
BTW, I often like to note that left populism results from actual real inequalities of wealth and power, whereas right populism appears to result from misperceptions of people having some kind of elite power over your life (when in actuality they don't) - like intellectuals, foreigners, immigrants, "globalists" (i.e. people who recognize we all share the same planet), "cosmopolitans," and it seems anywhere and everywhere, Da Joos.

Right populism exploits peoples' fear and anger toward things that actually are not impacting their lives, though certain manipulators want them to think so. It is always rooted in xenophobia, nativism, and anti-intellectualism. "Those smart, aware, city slicker people don't share my values!"

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:15 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:27 pm
Posts: 8283
Location: miles from nowhere
The professor stated, with considerable validity:

Yes, that's a big change in my thinking that I made maybe a few months earlier. The observed situation definitely supports left-populism and right-populism, without needing to stretch one classification to somehow accommodate the Seattle WTO anarchists and the white power types in one definition.

All the Libertarian Party members that I know anything about in L.A. are entertainment industry grunts with "assistant" somewhere in their union job title. Mostly, they want to get rid of taxes and keep all their money for themselves, while legally strutting around carrying guns.

They've all been taking John Milius pills. Those are a combination of strong male hormones and Ayn Rand snake oil. It's a rather quaint political analysis peculiar to The Industry. It explains why most screenplays are the way they are. There's a strong Das Held resonance by way of Travis Bickle. Fortunately, they have even less political power than the left.

I would say that the populist form springs from some climactic/catastrophic event. Generally it has been economic-political in nature. The drive of the Grange movement and populist movements were both obviously. The splitting came, imo, with the rise of the fascia in Italy first followed by Germany combined anti-capitalist sentiment (likely the basis of Dinesh D’Souza’s claim that fascism is left phenomenon) with racial/nationalistic sentiment. The left at the time was certainly anti-capital but conservatives made common cause with the fascists against the left out of fear of socialism.

I guess to me populism is an ism that is extremely short lived, doesn’t have much of a half-life. It morphs easily depending upon the direction from which it emerged. Thus left populism will trend socialist although not arbitrarily owning the means of production and right populist will trend fascist although not arbitrarily toward gotterdammerung with destruction of whole groups.

I hope that there is an actual analysis done of the Rise of Trump and Trumpism someday. Trump deliberately and openly tapped into racial hatred as well as misogyny and class warfare. The interesting thing about the class warfare is that it is the reversal of traditional class warfare. The meme is that things are rigged against the poor white man by government as opposed to government being rigged by capital against the worker of whatever color.

_________________
bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

The new motto of the USA: Unum de multis. Out of one, many.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:43 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus

Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:27 pm
Posts: 8283
Location: miles from nowhere
The professor stated, with considerable validity:

Yes, that's a big change in my thinking that I made maybe a few months earlier. The observed situation definitely supports left-populism and right-populism, without needing to stretch one classification to somehow accommodate the Seattle WTO anarchists and the white power types in one definition.

All the Libertarian Party members that I know anything about in L.A. are entertainment industry grunts with "assistant" somewhere in their union job title. Mostly, they want to get rid of taxes and keep all their money for themselves, while legally strutting around carrying guns.

They've all been taking John Milius pills. Those are a combination of strong male hormones and Ayn Rand snake oil. It's a rather quaint political analysis peculiar to The Industry. It explains why most screenplays are the way they are. There's a strong Das Held resonance by way of Travis Bickle. Fortunately, they have even less political power than the left.

God-Hero. Lovely. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Of course it seems the mythology is looking a little threadbare of late.

_________________
bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

The new motto of the USA: Unum de multis. Out of one, many.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:00 pm 
Offline
Policy Wonk
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:31 pm
Posts: 3838
Libertarian....
What's the point.

We know, easily, which is left or right. It is easy to tell. How can you confuse left and right?

We know what is left and right.
Anarchist on left and right.
Populist on left and right.

I listened to a Libertarian on the radio. A nice, polite gentleman. I knew right away he wasn't different than a Republican, even though he claim constantly that he wasn't a Republican. Thom Hartmann has said that a Libertarian was a conservative that wanted to smoke pot.. (or was it smoked too much pot).

_________________
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_8wdvTjq8


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:30 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:07 am
Posts: 10574
BTW, I often like to note that left populism results from actual real inequalities of wealth and power, whereas right populism appears to result from misperceptions of people having some kind of elite power over your life (when in actuality they don't) - like intellectuals, foreigners, immigrants, "globalists" (i.e. people who recognize we all share the same planet), "cosmopolitans," and it seems anywhere and everywhere, Da Joos.

Right populism exploits peoples' fear and anger toward things that actually are not impacting their lives, though certain manipulators want them to think so. It is always rooted in xenophobia, nativism, and anti-intellectualism. "Those smart, aware, city slicker people don't share my values!"


I don't regard populism as an ideology. It's a unique situation when a charismatic person develops a cult like following amoung a large sector of the population promising to fight for them.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:10 am 
Offline
Board Emeritus
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:57 pm
Posts: 11784
Location: Sunny South Florida
For a brief while, Sam, in the U.S., they were a third political party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27 ... ted_States)

The People's Party (also known as the Populist Party or the Populists) was an agrarian-populist political party in the United States. For a few years, from 1892 to 1896, it played a major role as a left-wing force in American politics. It was merged into the Democratic Party in 1896; a small independent remnant survived until 1908. It drew support from angry farmers in the West and South. It was highly critical of banks and railroads, and allied itself with the labor movement.[1][2]

Established in 1891, as a result of the Populist movement, the People's Party reached its peak in the 1892 presidential election, when its ticket, composed of James B. Weaver and James G. Field, won 8.5% of the popular vote and carried five states (Colorado, Idaho, Kansas, Nevada and North Dakota), and the 1894 House of Representatives elections, when it took over 10% of the vote. Built on a coalition of poor, white cotton farmers in the South (especially North Carolina, Alabama and Texas) and hard-pressed wheat farmers in the Plains states (especially Kansas and Nebraska), the Populists represented a radical opposition to banks, landowners, local and Eastern elites, railroads, and the gold standard.[3] The party sometimes allied with labor unions in the North and Republicans in the South.

In the 1896 presidential elections the Populists endorsed the Democratic presidential nominee, William Jennings Bryan, adding their own vice presidential nominee. By joining with the Democrats, the People's Party lost its independent identity and rapidly withered away.

Later, after the dissolution of the party, the term populist acquired a generic meaning and throughout most of the 20th century and into the 21st, the term means, "a believer in the rights, wisdom, or virtues of the common people.

[snip][end]

BTW, if you think the masses of ordinary common people are stupid and without wisdom, you are not a populist. :D

Let's be honest - liberals hate to be called elitists, but what else are we when we say ordinary common people are too stupid to self-govern? We need to own it if we are it - no?

I do agree many populist politicians and leaders show themselves to be dangerous demagogues: before Trump, there was Huey "Kingfisher" Long. Also, I think, elsewhere in Argentina, Juan Peron.

Long is a great example of somebody who echoed some left wing themes ("Share Our Strength") but quickly evolved into fascism.

I think you know my view on this, Sam. I don't think ordinary common people are stupid. However, they may need to be educated. They may need to be shown the way. No, I'm not talking about Marxist revolutionary vanguard theory. I mean, more like, providing good examples, showing a path beyond scapegoating, appealing to their better angels. Discussing some theory and some history and some strategy - public intellectuals should do that.

Some do.

Marx was right about one thing. Billionaires and ordinary people will have opposing interests. They will want different things when it comes to taxes, regulations, social programs and services. That is kind of inevitable. What they support politically will be opposed. No conspiracy; just social analysis. And it's just a fact - the non-billionaires outnumber them, and this is supposedly a democracy.

I point this out, as Sheldon Adelson is currently pouring millions of dollars into GOP coffers in a last ditch effort for the midterm elections.

_________________
-- Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.
Malaclypse the Younger


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: marindem and 21 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group