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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:10 pm 
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I second Ike's opinion, Drak. But ya knew that.

I'm sorry we ever argued over #russiagate. We mostly agree ... there is a traitor in the WH.

Well, more than one, I think. But anyway.


Hey thanks dude. Back at both of you.

That argument side of the disagreement was my fault. Sometimes I can be a spaz :)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:11 pm 
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The rabbi said I was Jewish because I was adopted in infancy by Jews.


Some Orthodox would say that's not good enough. You would still need to convert if you couldn't prove bio-mom was a Jew.

Please note, I have never been one to argue strongly for dogmatic orthodoxies, whether Jewish or otherwise. Just noting existence of said opinion.

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My wife, who actually had a Jewish father, on the other hand, had to convert to get married in the temple.


Da rule is it's mammala that counts. Papa could be a Rastafarian, it doesn't matter. Just saying, some say ya gotta follow it.

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But you know how Jews are with their laws...particularly woman hater shit like the get.


Ever read Lilith magazine? It's put out by Jewish feminists. And I'm talking like the kind that would make Ruth Bader Ginsburg blush.

I've read it. Oh yeah, they really really don't like the get.

(For non-Jews, let me note it basically makes a divorce very man-sided.)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Get incoherent?

On it!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:59 am 
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I'm actually much more interested in the amount of Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA still around. It seems to be way more than we thought. Also, it turns out Neanderthals were much nicer people than they've been portrayed. They made some pretty decent art, buried their dead, and yes, interbred with H sap sap like you wouldn't believe.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:03 am 
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The Jewish law which I think Viewer is referring to says... Orthodox ... Reform.
Well, Prof, that's not really the point I was trying to make. The point was that there are group defined boundaries (be they 'the Orthodox' or 'Reform' or whichever group. The point that each does define, rather what what each definition is (that's 'inside politics') makes the point. As an anthropologist and on this board you've made this point several time. It similar to the Cherokee setting rules. Its similar to the United States setting citizenship rule. One might live for half a century and not be a US citizen.

---
btw and off topic -- the number of mitzvot you observe isn't necessarily a function of which 'sect' (I question that word but anyway). It's a level of the choices you make. I know Reform rabbis who keep kosher, pray three times a day and guard shabbat. On the other hand, there are people who define themselves as 'orthodox' who drive to synagogue on Shabbat or whatever someone thinks an 'observant' person shouldn't do. The movements are really just groups of Rabbis. A pretty recent innovation. I dont think Moshe or Joshua belonged to the OU, Satmar, Belz, UAHC, UCJ, Chabad, or whatever (though I do think he was a Levi).


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:32 pm 
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The point was that there are group defined boundaries (be they 'the Orthodox' or 'Reform' or whichever group.


Not questioning that point. I am pointing out that lots of groups have internal struggles over where those boundaries should be.

I also believe as a scholar, one has a responsibility to delineate the processes whereby rules and boundaries were created.

It is not an inaccurate statement to note that Reform Jews have a different position. Also, to note historically that "it's the mother that counts" has only been in effect since after the Diaspora. It does not date back to Biblical times.

https://reformjudaism.org/ask-rabbi-top ... al-descent

Historically, since the Rabbinic period (post 70 CE), Jewish status was passed down by the mother. This is known as matrilineality. A child of a Jewish mother is Jewish, even if the father is not. Prior to this period, the Bible recognized patrilineal descent, whereby one’s Jewish status was determined by one’s father.

In 1983, the organized Reform Jewish Movement adopted the principal of patrilineal descent. This is a bit of a misnomer. Reform Judaism considers a child of an interfaith couple to be Jewish if one parent is Jewish and the child is raised as a Jew and receives a Jewish education and celebrates appropriate life cycle events, such as receiving a Hebrew name and becoming bar or bat mitzvah. This also assumes that the child is being raised exclusively as a Jew and not practicing another religion.

[snip][end]

Basically, since 1983, the Reform position is you need one parent of either gender, raising you as a Jew. Incidentally, I believe for the adoptees, it doesn't have to be a bio-parent.

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It's a level of the choices you make.


I agree, but the Reform Rabbis I know usually emphasize that commitment to the prophetical ideal social justice is more important than the strictness of halakhic ritual observance.

Yeah, that Yeshua feller said something about that, didn't he? "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath".

Reform lets people make those choices, of course. But what are the Rabbis recommending? I'm not saying I don't know observant folks in Reform or that they don't exist.

I don't know many people who aren't observant who are being hassled by Reform Rabbis, tho.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:12 pm 
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kind of getting off topic here...so I wont respond publicly.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:20 pm 
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I know I will probably be offending somebody with this but too fuckin' bad...

The more the orthodoxy the more fucked up the religion. And I still don't get what the deal is with the Haredi (and other orthodox Jewish) women who put up with the get because they fear the loss of a community that treats them like fourth class shit.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:42 pm 
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Yeah...I think you crossed a line by grouping everyone, everything, together.

-Not all 'orthodox,' are Haredi. Most are not. Certainly the overwhelming majority that you come in contact with.
-The get issue affects men too...just not nearly as often.
-Now I happen to agree, re the get issue being a problem that needs to be solved. It is especially ironic, given that the whole marriage contact was developed to be protection for the woman in particular. The bulk of the 'orthodox' community is trying to deal with this issue. For example the RCA (the largest group of orthodox rabbis) requires its members to have a couple sign a prenup (civilly enforceable) prior to conducting marriage. In Israel, men have been imprisoned for not providing the divorce certificate. Men are often isolated from their communities over this issue. While it is an issue I believe needs to be dealt with effectively, and I'm not defending assholes who hold this over their (former) spouses heads (I write as a person who has had family members who had to deal with this very issue) I sometimes wonder at the outrage. This is an issue only to those who follow this law. Do you really care, one way or the other, if your spouse has a get? I can't help but to think this is a bludgeon that some non-observant people like to use against those who are.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:45 am 
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Yeah...I think you crossed a line by grouping everyone, everything, together.

-Not all 'orthodox,' are Haredi. Most are not. Certainly the overwhelming majority that you come in contact with.
-The get issue affects men too...just not nearly as often.
-Now I happen to agree, re the get issue being a problem that needs to be solved. It is especially ironic, given that the whole marriage contact was developed to be protection for the woman in particular. The bulk of the 'orthodox' community is trying to deal with this issue. For example the RCA (the largest group of orthodox rabbis) requires its members to have a couple sign a prenup (civilly enforceable) prior to conducting marriage. In Israel, men have been imprisoned for not providing the divorce certificate. Men are often isolated from their communities over this issue. While it is an issue I believe needs to be dealt with effectively, and I'm not defending assholes who hold this over their (former) spouses heads (I write as a person who has had family members who had to deal with this very issue) I sometimes wonder at the outrage. This is an issue only to those who follow this law. Do you really care, one way or the other, if your spouse has a get? I can't help but to think this is a bludgeon that some non-observant people like to use against those who are.


Far as I'm concerned, the only thing the get was ever about was the exercise of just another form of religiously driven patriarchal bullshit. Sadly, one of the opinions my 20 years of direct service mental health work has left me with is that way, way, way too many men, regardless of culture, are simply objectifying pigs. Enough to have created the situation, well put by Yoko Ono in 1968 (later by her husband), that woman is the nigger of the world.

PS - And now we have the number one objectifying fucking pig of the planet as the current occupant of the oval office.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:16 am 
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.... Sadly, one of the opinions my 20 years of direct service mental health work has left me with is that way, way, way too many men, regardless of culture, are simply objectifying pigs.

Sadly, I don't think I can disagree with you on this point.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:19 am 
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Been this layman's experience too.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:23 pm 
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Far as I'm concerned, the only thing the get was ever about was the exercise of just another form of religiously driven patriarchal bullshit. Sadly, one of the opinions my 20 years of direct service mental health work has left me with is that way, way, way too many men, regardless of culture, are simply objectifying pigs. Enough to have created the situation, well put by Yoko Ono in 1968 (later by her husband), that woman is the nigger of the world.

PS - And now we have the number one objectifying fucking pig of the planet as the current occupant of the oval office.


Feh, Ms. Ono is mistaken about that.

It was a dumb concept then, and it's just as dumb when Bette Middler repeated the canard a couple weeks ago.

I can't generalize men as objectifying pigs across the board, I suppose because I personally know and have known too many who aren't. I would say, the ones who are, choose to be, they don't have to be. For the ones that aren't, it seems to be the weight of the world lifted off them to know that no, they don't have to be.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:46 pm 
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Many feminists point out that sexism, although it results in male supremacism and gender inequality, also damages men.

Mainly because it also straightjackets men into certain dominant gender norms, like "men don't cry" (so don't show your emotions in public) or "you must be the sole breadwinner in your family" (and if by the way, there are two, and the woman is earning more than the man, you are now emasculated and less of a man).

Oh and one of my favorites, "Like sports intensively, or you're not a real man". "What kind of guy is into doing ballet?"

Ending sexism is good for both men and women. Neither has to follow narrowly defined gender roles of masculinity or femininity.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:50 pm 
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Many feminists point out that sexism, although it results in male supremacism and gender inequality, also damages men.

Mainly because it also straightjackets men into certain dominant gender norms, like "men don't cry" (so don't show your emotions in public) or "you must be the sole breadwinner in your family" (and if by the way, there are two, and the woman is earning more than the man, you are now emasculated and less of a man).

Oh and one of my favorites, "Like sports intensively, or you're not a real man". "What kind of guy is into doing ballet?"

Ending sexism is good for both men and women.


Ha, I used to tease my ex's boys, one of whom was a high school football team member: ballet guys are way stronger than football guys. Ever see a ballet guy's thighs??

All you guys do is knock each other over. These guys lift up other people while standing on their toes. And they also have to make it look nice while doing it!

And! all y'all wear tights...

They got it, they'd laugh. Fun fellows.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:55 pm 
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Feh, Ms. Ono is mistaken about that.

It was a dumb concept then, and it's just as dumb when Bette Middler repeated the canard a couple weeks ago.

I can't generalize men as objectifying pigs across the board, I suppose because I personally know and have known too many who aren't. I would say, the ones who are, choose to be, they don't have to be. For the ones that aren't, it seems to be the weight of the world lifted off them to know that no, they don't have to be.


Feh...indeed.

I know quite a few men who aren't pigs as well. Just not anywhere near enough of them. Ya gotta trust me carmen...the majority of men see women as "less than". And it's pretty scary for me to hear how Russian women are thinking that American men are so great. Sure they're great. Compared with Russian men, southern white boy confederates are great. You just haven't had the opportunity to hang around men in situations where they feel comfortable enough to be expressing some of what's really banging around in their lumpy heads. Locker rooms and confidentiality protected counseling offices are my experience. Yikes...

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Last edited by Ike Bana on Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:57 pm 
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Well, Carmen, as you darn well know, "girls don't do computer science/engineering and IT" ... ;)

Ada Lovelace ... who's that? :D

P.S. as my nephew just finished an undergrad degree in comp sci, he still told me females are about only 35% of his classes, at best.

He met his girlfriend in his program, though. :mrgreen:

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