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 Post subject: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:24 pm 
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While I agree that we got into a lot of the trouble we're in by assuming the other side would keep politics fairly civil, the cons on this board have actually done a pretty good job of keeping it to issues. Or at least, the ones that didn't get banned have done so.

I would hope that, despite how angry we all are, that we not reply to conservative views by calling anyone who posts here a mother fracker. While I understand the urge to do that, it hurts the movement. Honey, vinegar, and all that. While anger gets worse when it's bottled up, there are more effective ways to use it.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:25 pm 
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While I agree that we got into a lot of the trouble we're in by assuming the other side would keep politics fairly civil, the cons on this board have actually done a pretty good job of keeping it to issues. Or at least, the ones that didn't get banned have done so.

I would hope that, despite how angry we all are, that we not reply to conservative views by calling anyone who posts here a mother fracker. While I understand the urge to do that, it hurts the movement. Honey, vinegar, and all that. While anger gets worse when it's bottled up, there are more effective ways to use it.

Couldnt disagree more.

civility is something they dont deserve

why dont you just call ME Out instead of doing this shit

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24621&p=428013&hilit=motherfuckers#p428013

I assume this is what has you upset

while I am upset about this

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... t-children
Quote:

Texas detention camp swells fivefold with migrant children


FUCK civility

Jeus christ, talk about missing what is right in front of your face.

Instead of focusing on people who support NAZIS AND TREASON you make an entire thread about me using the word motherfuckers, which I wont use again because it is a word I shouldnt use but that isnt what you are on about, you are on about something else. Jesus...i cant believe this.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:33 pm 
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While I agree that we got into a lot of the trouble we're in by assuming the other side would keep politics fairly civil, the cons on this board have actually done a pretty good job of keeping it to issues. Or at least, the ones that didn't get banned have done so.

I would hope that, despite how angry we all are, that we not reply to conservative views by calling anyone who posts here a mother fracker. While I understand the urge to do that, it hurts the movement. Honey, vinegar, and all that. While anger gets worse when it's bottled up, there are more effective ways to use it.


Yeah, I get what you're saying.

But I'm not interested in civility with people who vote for and enable uncivil policy and laws.

I'm also aware that I could post like Mother Teresa every minute, and it's still considered being "uncivil" to them. Any content that criticizes a supremacist's violent way of life is -- ironically enough -- "uncivil".

So f. them.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Yeah, I get what you're saying.

But I'm not interested in civility with people who vote for and enable uncivil policy and laws.

I'm also aware that I could post like Mother Teresa every minute, and it's still considered being "uncivil" to them. Any content that criticizes a supremacist's violent way of life is -- ironically enough -- "uncivil".

So f. them.

Thank you.

BTW "motherfucker" is misogynist? I wont use it anymore, but I did like that one. :rw)

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Good points, all.

My style is more to call people's ideas hooey or even fucking trash, but not to make assumptions about people I've never seen. This of course has its limits, like when I see baseball crowds in Atlanta and consider them to be too white, too male, too loud, and likely mostly the sort of people we decry here. I'm as biased against stupid people with a toxic culture as anyone else.

Believe it or not, I was referring specifically to tactics.

And no, lib, everything is not aimed at you. Others do it too. I've even done it.

I don't want to be labelled as the Profanity Police, so I'm dropping this discussion right now. I said my piece and I stand by it, and that's all I need to say. I'm sure at some future time I'll call someone the same thing I call certain types of people off the Internet. There are many ways that one learns to cuss like a pro. The movie industry worked just fine for me.

Carry on.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:03 pm 
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Good points, all.

My style is more to call people's ideas hooey or even fucking trash, but not to make assumptions about people I've never seen. This of course has its limits, like when I see baseball crowds in Atlanta and consider them to be too white, too male, too loud, and likely mostly the sort of people we decry here. I'm as biased against stupid people with a toxic culture as anyone else.

Believe it or not, I was referring specifically to tactics.

And no, lib, everything is not aimed at you. Others do it too. I've even done it.

I don't want to be labelled as the Profanity Police, so I'm dropping this discussion right now. I said my piece and I stand by it, and that's all I need to say. I;m sure at some future time I'll call someone the same thing I call certain types of people off the Internet. Let's say that you don't need military service to learn to cuss like a pro. The movie industry worked just fine for me.

Carry on.

You are my ally, I appreciate you.

Like with another person here I get annoyed at them but I rarely point it out because they are ON MY side and I know how the game is played, make even the SLIGHTEST criticism of one of us, me, you, Schumer and the other side is ALL OVER it.

Commonly known as divide and conquer, but they cant do that if WE dont take shots at EACH other.

The professor is one of my closest internet friends, the professor is OFTEN bothered or annoyed by my over the top approach because he is a level headed, well, professor. But have you noticed he never ever goes after me in public?

There is a reason for that, not just we are friends but he gets it, he KNOWS if he even slightly goes after me the CONS will jump ALL over it. We are a team, like it or not :rw)

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:06 pm 
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Personally, I think it is dangerous to buy into any conservative demands for "civility". If today's conservatives didn't have a legacy of violent vigilantism backed up by the cops, it would be one thing. But they do.

"Choke a motherfucker"

https://twitter.com/VicBergerIV/status/ ... 3165681664

Vic Berger IV
Verified account
@VicBergerIV
Follow Follow @VicBergerIV

Please share this video. People need to understand how dangerous Gavin McInnes and his gang the Proud Boys are.

Notify his employers @CRTV and @FoxNews. Maybe we can prevent him from getting someone else killed.

---

Like Donald Trump and the rest of the redhat whites without the white sheets, we can expect cowed, craven silence from the cons around here. This is exactly how Jim Crow was imposed, enforced, and remained the law of the land for so long.

A peaceful protest against their violent supremacist policies is cast as "uncivil" and "communist" and "socialist" and etc. In that light, we weren't civil with these cop-callers then, and I'm not going to be civil with them, now.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Lib, you're a friend, and I don't call you out, ever. I did once or twice at the beginning, when you were scaring the shit out of me with your impending nuclear war stuff, but now it's a policy not to. It's safe to say that we have an understanding.

The professor is a good guy. I like him, and of course I do like his professorial tone. I spent half my life in grad school before I was stupid enough to think I could make a good living helping an old and vibrant industry dance shadows on the wall.

Carmen, you have an inherent right to say anything you want about conservative whites. In fact, that should be in the constitution. "The right of oppressed groups to call toxic conservative white males all manner of great urban language shall not be infringed upon."

You should hear what I had to say offline about the Proud Boys kicking lefties in our neighborhood (or close enough for rock). Or maybe it's best that you didn't.

The sun's trying to come out in New York, and the crosstown bus beckons. Bye for now.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:43 pm 
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Lib, you're a friend, and I don't call you out, ever. I did once or twice at the beginning, when you were scaring the shit out of me with your impending nuclear war stuff, but now it's a policy not to. It's safe to say that we have an understanding.

The professor is a good guy. I like him, and of course I do like his professorial tone. I spent half my life in grad school before I was stupid enough to think I could make a good living helping an old and vibrant industry dance shadows on the wall.

Carmen, you have an inherent right to say anything you want about conservative whites. In fact, that should be in the constitution. "The right of oppressed groups to call toxic conservative white males all manner of great urban language shall not be infringed upon."

You should hear what I had to say offline about the Proud Boys kicking lefties in our neighborhood (or close enough for rock). Or maybe it's best that you didn't.

The sun's trying to come out in New York, and the crosstown bus beckons. Bye for now.


Hah maybe.

But I'm convinced that at this point, the bulk of conservatives -- white or otherwise -- don't believe in the Constitution and are actually quite threatened by it.

I mean, this is WHY the Civil Rights movement took the name "Civil Rights movement".

"Be true to what you say on paper," said MLK.

But the reason the Proud Boys gang members in suits are even in the news again (this week) is because the Metropolitan Republican Club invited Gavin McInness. The Club is headquaters for GOP gubernatorial candidate Marc Molinaro. These tikitorch neonazis are what the opposition party is, now. If the Dems turn the tide in 3 weeks, these conservative gang members are only going to get more violent. And if the status quo remains the same, e.g. Congress doesn't change and people like Kobach and Kemp win governorships, they are going to get more violent. So the idea of civility with a party of violent vigilantes is an untenable luxury.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:01 pm 
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Guess what, the "angry mob" and be more civil stuff is coming direct from KGB, story on it just now, either XM or Msnbc

yep

knew it

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:34 pm 
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The professor is a good guy. I like him, and of course I do like his professorial tone. I spent half my life in grad school before I was stupid enough to think I could make a good living helping an old and vibrant industry dance shadows on the wall.


Dunno. One of the things that is part of my training is that it is OK to be rude to the ideas that people hold. I have no hesitation calling certain ideas stupid and idiotic. Ideas do not have feelings.

People do. And, I just think sometimes we have to understand people are not the ideas they hold. This is why I focus more of my energy on critiquing those ideas, than criticizing people.

BTW, once in a while, it even gets people to rethink their ideas. (I'll be honest. Along the way, I've had to rethink some of mine.)

And that said, some people, notably those who openly espouse fascism, are assholes, and I don't hesitate to call one, one. I have tolerance for a wide range of opinion that does not agree with me. But, like I keep saying, Karl Popper warned about tolerating the worst forms of intolerance - I won't.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:37 pm 
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Hundreds of thousands, BREXIT demonstration, London...cant look for story now, gotta go

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:14 pm 
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glen has a history of trying to hijack threads he does not like and as joe memphis, his "wait and see" is has gotten old.

Civility is like respect, you give what you get.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:29 pm 
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Civility started to vanish when the false god started his campaign in Philadelphia, MS.

Ronald Reagan started the process of mainstreaming racism. The Republican Party started the process of character assassination in the modern era with the attacks on Bill Clinton.

As for civility in general I seem to recall the election of 1800 being a bit far from civil.

Either way the Republican Party must shoulder the blame for the bulk of the incivility. I won't wait for that to happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:55 pm 
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how come the freedom riders werent belligerent?

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:59 pm 
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how come the freedom riders werent belligerent?


Any act in defiance of white conservatism is seen by them as an act of war.

It's why they justified trying to murder Freedom Riders.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:49 pm 
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Have you been to the Civil Rights Museum in Memphis. The bus that was bombed is there. The hate still remains.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:57 pm 
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how come the freedom riders werent belligerent?


I don't know if they were "belligerent" as the word would usually be defined, but obviously as was just noted, some people saw them as so 'belligerent' they needed to be murdered in Miss.

Some people considered liberal white Northern college students coming down South trying to protect Negroes' right to vote as a belligerent, 'carpetbagging' act.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:15 pm 
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ProfessorX wrote:

I don't know if they were "belligerent" as the word would usually be defined, but obviously as was just noted, some people saw them as so 'belligerent' they needed to be murdered in Miss.

Some people considered liberal white Northern college students coming down South trying to protect Negroes' right to vote as a belligerent, 'carpetbagging' act.


The riders were trained to not react with the same belligerence as put out against them, do you think that was bad advice?

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:37 pm 
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I understand your point. It's a key part of civil disobedience training. I've had it.

The thing is, you understand, asking this of the average person is difficult. To just sit there while someone pours hot coffee on you.

Image

King himself sometimes discussed this issue. Nonviolence is not passive. You are making an active choice to resist and not to cooperate. Just not returning violence with violence.

The thing is, of course, as he noted, this will not stop other people from hating you, imprisoning you for breaking unjust laws, possibly even killing you, ... you might have to be prepared for that. We know he himself had to be in 1968.

I agree with the principle of nonviolence as a tactic. That said, I'm not sure it always means you have to be polite to assholes. Or kind to the cruel. Or tolerant to the forces of hate. As with anything else, tactics should not become dogmas.

I don't know whether Jesus actually said it or not, but I do not turn the other cheek. I don't. I live by the Golden Rule: if you are polite to me, I am polite to you back. But if you are rude to me or people I care about, I will be rude to you.

I will never initiate violence first. Not that this is an issue where at least here all we are doing is exchanging electrons and possibly living in different time zones.

Self defense where warranted is part of my tradition, and also the law. But, as I've said, no, I do not carry a gun. (That doesn't mean there are not other means for self defense around.)

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:55 pm 
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The riders were trained to not react with the same belligerence as put out against them, do you think that was bad advice?


It wasn't advice. It was a strategy to get the government to enforce laws that had been passed almost 20 years prior.

https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Morgan_v_Virginia

What always fascinates me about these kinds of discussions is that conservatives, i.e. the people with the background of torching integrated buses and killing fellow citizens trying to vote, are never admonished about civility.

That tells me quite a bit about what the civility canard really is.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:35 pm 
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It wasn't advice. It was a strategy to get the government to enforce laws that had been passed almost 20 years prior.

https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Morgan_v_Virginia

What always fascinates me about these kinds of discussions is that conservatives, i.e. the people with the background of torching integrated buses and killing fellow citizens trying to vote, are never admonished about civility.

That tells me quite a bit about what the civility canard really is.


well the whole discussion is a bit of a ruse we get an idle call out to be uncivil those who dont agree are branded pacifist those who do incited to behave badly producing more bad behavior a mirror effect but no change in use of power where it counts. the freedom riders had purpose and a strategy wasnt in vain.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:41 pm 
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I understand your point. It's a key part of civil disobedience training. I've had it.

The thing is, you understand, asking this of the average person is difficult. To just sit there while someone pours hot coffee on you.

Image

King himself sometimes discussed this issue. Nonviolence is not passive. You are making an active choice to resist and not to cooperate. Just not returning violence with violence.

The thing is, of course, as he noted, this will not stop other people from hating you, imprisoning you for breaking unjust laws, possibly even killing you, ... you might have to be prepared for that. We know he himself had to be in 1968.

I agree with the principle of nonviolence as a tactic. That said, I'm not sure it always means you have to be polite to assholes. Or kind to the cruel. Or tolerant to the forces of hate. As with anything else, tactics should not become dogmas.

I don't know whether Jesus actually said it or not, but I do not turn the other cheek. I don't. I live by the Golden Rule: if you are polite to me, I am polite to you back. But if you are rude to me or people I care about, I will be rude to you.

I will never initiate violence first. Not that this is an issue where at least here all we are doing is exchanging electrons and possibly living in different time zones.

Self defense where warranted is part of my tradition, and also the law. But, as I've said, no, I do not carry a gun. (That doesn't mean there are not other means for self defense around.)


Also, there's a practical reason the Black Power movement emerged out of people involved in CORE, SNCC and other student activist groups, i.e. the people on the front lines of these integration efforts. The closest the handful of openly armed groups ever came to actual "belligerence" or the "militancy" they were so often ascribed, was stockpiling guns. And even with that, turns out guns guy Richard Aoki, one of the founding members of the Black Panther Party, also just so happened to be an FBI informant at that time. :problem:

Who in the heck wants to keep getting coffee poured on them and cigarettes put out on them to make it legal to sit at a lunch counter, while so-called "moderates" tell them to be civil and patient?

This country demands civility behavior from minorities that too many people of the majority don't even engage in, themselves. And yet, we could each be Mother Teresas. We'll still be labeled uncivil or whatever.

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Last edited by carmenjonze on Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:49 pm 
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well the whole discussion is a bit of a ruse we get an idle call out to be uncivil those who dont agree are branded pacifist those who do incited to behave badly producing more bad behavior a mirror effect but no change in use of power where it counts. the freedom riders had purpose and a strategy wasnt in vain.


Your post is a little hard to understand, but invoking the Freedom Riders here is something of a red herring, anyway. I don't think you'll find anyone here, not even glen, that believes their work was in vain. I also don't see any calls to be uncivil.

I don't think you should be waving the Freedom Riders over critics of "civility" discourse's heads. This is not to call out the OP, because the OP is directed at discussions on RFL. But in general, the discourse of civility is never directed at those who hold the power, who impose that power with state and vigilante violence. It's typically directed at their targets.

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 Post subject: Re: Civil discussion
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:40 am 
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how come the freedom riders werent belligerent?

Belligerence, if I understand your question, relates to what is uncivil to start. Jim Crow was uncivil. The freedom riders would be considered civil disobedience to which Jim Crow responded with incivility. Reagan’s speech was uncivil due to the time-space of where the speech was made.

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bird's theorem-"we the people" are stupid.

"No one is so foolish as to choose war over peace. In peace sons bury their fathers, in war fathers bury their sons." - Herodotus

The new motto of the USA: Unum de multis. Out of one, many.


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