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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:16 pm 
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Meh, I don't care about educating conservative whites about anything. They rendered themselves ineducable, generations ago.

Donald Trump indeed embodies the whole of white conservatism, perfectly.


I don't disagree with you carmen. I'm just looking at it from a psychological/behavioral perspective...you're looking at it from a sociological perspective. And to be perfectly honest...sociologists have always made me a little crazy.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:17 pm 
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Who knows what he really believes, as I've said many times, he doesn't seem to be much into having ideas or an ideology. But yes, he knows what phrases will sell and rile people up. He's a salesman.

That contradiction was there from day one, he wants everything made in America, but his ties and so much of his merchandise are made in Gina. His most valuable hotel and resort properties are outside the U.S. And he regularly uses foreign labor on projects.

Nationalism is one of those ideologies that has varieties. Like feminism, Zionism, or leftism. BTW, the Left likes anti-colonial national liberation movements, or did, anyway, which are nationalist. The PLO is a nationalist organization, they want a nation state for the Palestinian people.

I'm not sure what a globalist is. I'm a person who looks at globalization and says why pretend it's not happening, and although we may need some answers to the problems of economic globalization, those answers might be in the form of political globalization. So I guess that makes me one.

On the other, for the moment, I'm a supporter of a Jewish nation state, as well as an American nation state (doesn't mean I'm a jingoist who agrees with the people running those places or thinks they do no wrong), also, because I don't think systems operating at a higher level than the nation state are working out so well, see problems with EU.

Henry Ford's preferred epithet was "internationalist," which is why he attacked "The International Jew," and other "cosmopolitans". It is not a coincidence that one of the last ads that Steve Bannon crafted for Donald before he exited the campaign was one attacking "globalists" and then proceeding to show a number of Jewish faces, including everybody's favorite supposed-Shylock-standin, George Soros.

Dunno, I agree with Carmen. What kind of nationalist is he? Well, it seems odd how often he connects himself or gets the support of white nationalists. So draw the inference. Oddly, he's not a jingoist in the traditional sense. He seems to acknowledge America has done wrong. It's just under him, now America seems gifted with infallibility in its actions. After all, he never makes mistakes, or apologizes.

Thanks for posting this. We rarely see a straight-forward, non-rhetorical discussion on political bulletin board...yes, even this board. Good Post, Prof.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:26 pm 
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I don't disagree with you carmen. I'm just looking at it from a psychological/behavioral perspective...you're looking at it from a sociological perspective. And to be perfectly honest...sociologists have always made me a little crazy.


Haha, I stayed miles away from sosh in school, where the prevailing attitude was that sociologists take up 40 pages with qual/quant research, just to state the obvious. I don't really believe that these days, but I'm actually much more humanities than social sciences.

And who the hell wants to take g.d. stats!?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:48 pm 
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I'm pretty convinced that sociopathy is generated in the developmental environment, in someone with a genetic pre-disposition toward sociopathy. Not everybody who grows up and develops in a sick, destructive environment will end up an adult sociopath. Those with a genetic pre-disposition to sociopathy who grow up and develop in a reasonably nurturing environment typically will not, IMHCO, end up as adult sociopaths. And...there may be those with the genetic pre-disposition, from a good family, who get so much shit down the road in life that they go all sociopathic. I haven't thought a whole lot about that, so yours is a really good question.

But there's also psychopathy. Many of the behaviors associated with psychopathy are indistinguishable with sociopathic behaviors. But the majority of the thinking now is that psychopathy is primarily a genetic blip in the brain chemistry. There are psychopaths who appear to have had pretty decent, if not top notch, childhood experience. And they're psychopaths anyway. Study of comparative developmental environments is one of the ways mental health professionals differentiate between who's a sociopath and who's a psychopath. The sociopaths also seem to be more out of control, emotional, reactive, hostile all over the place...just pretty nuts. Like Donald. Psychopaths, are cunning, generally not reactive, thoughtful in their destructive behavior, harder for law enforcement to identify away from their destructive behavior, and thus way more difficult to catch at it. Psychopaths have control and don't want to get caught. Sociopaths pretty much can't help but get caught. Bundy was a sociopathic serial rapist and killer...as time went by he became more and more crazy, emotionally driven and careless and got caught. Dahmer basically got caught by accident...one of his victims got away.

Of course there are also a bunch of mental health professional "experts" out there who would say that this model that I'm invested in is fucking nuts.

Again...I grew up next door to a homicidal psychopath. Once referred to by the FBI agent who was on his case for decades as "the worst torturer/murderer in the history of the Chicago mob." The guy was really nice to me and my little brother though. So I grew up with this major interpersonal incongruity in my experience. He caught me kissing his gorgeous daughter one time and didn't kill me...so I suppose that says a lot. All of us in the neighborhood knew he was a dangerous outfit associate, but we didn't know how bad until years after he was assassinated and the FBI agent's book came out. So when I got into the mental health biz, I was always way, way more interested in idividual psychopathology than stuff like structural family therapy, couples counseling and other boring shit like that stuff.


Yeah, I know it's a stretch to consider white conservatism as "cultural" or "induced" sociopathy. Probably not all of them are even actual sociopaths. Regarding the way white American conservatives act in relation to the world they live in, I do have to wonder just what growing up with every law and public policy skewered in one's favor has to do with developing deeply distorted views of the self very early on in life.

But the interesting thing is, that's what a lot of them will say about everyone else's culture, particularly that African-American culture is "pathological," whatever the hell they imagine African-American culture is. It's behind the kneejerk, Pavlovian, mind-dead "but Chicago!!!" whattabouttery deflection, every time somebody mentions Trump voter violence or this administration's destructive domestic policies. We're all "Chicago," to them.

But this is very helpful and really interesting. Sociopaths are feckless whereas psychopaths are calculating, and neither have any kind of moral code...is that accurate?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:59 pm 
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Who knows what he really believes, as I've said many times, he doesn't seem to be much into having ideas or an ideology. But yes, he knows what phrases will sell and rile people up. He's a salesman.

That contradiction was there from day one, he wants everything made in America, but his ties and so much of his merchandise are made in Gina. His most valuable hotel and resort properties are outside the U.S. And he regularly uses foreign labor on projects.

Nationalism is one of those ideologies that has varieties. Like feminism, Zionism, or leftism. BTW, the Left likes anti-colonial national liberation movements, or did, anyway, which are nationalist. The PLO is a nationalist organization, they want a nation state for the Palestinian people.

I'm not sure what a globalist is. I'm a person who looks at globalization and says why pretend it's not happening, and although we may need some answers to the problems of economic globalization, those answers might be in the form of political globalization. So I guess that makes me one.

On the other, for the moment, I'm a supporter of a Jewish nation state, as well as an American nation state (doesn't mean I'm a jingoist who agrees with the people running those places or thinks they do no wrong), also, because I don't think systems operating at a higher level than the nation state are working out so well, see problems with EU.

Henry Ford's preferred epithet was "internationalist," which is why he attacked "The International Jew," and other "cosmopolitans". It is not a coincidence that one of the last ads that Steve Bannon crafted for Donald before he exited the campaign was one attacking "globalists" and then proceeding to show a number of Jewish faces, including everybody's favorite supposed-Shylock-standin, George Soros.

Dunno, I agree with Carmen. What kind of nationalist is he? Well, it seems odd how often he connects himself or gets the support of white nationalists. So draw the inference. Oddly, he's not a jingoist in the traditional sense. He seems to acknowledge America has done wrong. It's just under him, now America seems gifted with infallibility in its actions. After all, he never makes mistakes, or apologizes.


Yes, though how he runs his businesses or has others do it for him is so bad and so uninformed that he has gone broke in every business, alienated any foreign nation he does business with.

He knows nothing, at all, about business of any kind. Nothing. Worse his instincts on business are as dumb and self destructive as you can get.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:02 pm 
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And who the hell wants to take g.d. stats!?


Me. I don't want to do it again but I wanted to when I took them.


I didn't return them either, I think I was supposed to keep them, I paid for them. :|


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:15 pm 
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But this is very helpful and really interesting. Sociopaths are feckless whereas psychopaths are calculating, and neither have any kind of moral code...is that accurate?


Whataboutery in spades, indeed. Thanks for the feedback...and I agree conpletely with your summary of the basic differences between sociopaths and psychopaths.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Yes, though how he runs his businesses or has others do it for him is so bad and so uninformed that he has gone broke in every business, alienated any foreign nation he does business with.

He knows nothing, at all, about business of any kind. Nothing. Worse his instincts on business are as dumb and self destructive as you can get.


Trump has become accomplished at two things:

1. Weaponizing of our fucked up legal system to victimize innocent people. (Don't anybody call it a justice system. Justice doesn't have a fucking thing to do with it.)

2. Finding asshole shyster snake lawyers who are happy to weaponize this fucked up legal system for money. And yet they whine about running 1st or 2nd in pretty much every top 10 most hated professions list.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:11 pm 
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Yeah, I know it's a stretch to consider white conservatism as "cultural" or "induced" sociopathy. Probably not all of them are even actual sociopaths. Regarding the way white American conservatives act in relation to the world they live in, I do have to wonder just what growing up with every law and public policy skewered in one's favor has to do with developing deeply distorted views of the self very early on in life.

But the interesting thing is, that's what a lot of them will say about everyone else's culture, particularly that African-American culture is "pathological," whatever the hell they imagine African-American culture is. It's behind the kneejerk, Pavlovian, mind-dead "but Chicago!!!" whattabouttery deflection, every time somebody mentions Trump voter violence or this administration's destructive domestic policies. We're all "Chicago," to them.

But this is very helpful and really interesting. Sociopaths are feckless whereas psychopaths are calculating, and neither have any kind of moral code...is that accurate?


i find this thread so fascinating, i'm not even sure where to begin.

okay 1st i'd totally argue ted buddy was indeed a psychopath. yes after he was caught in colorado and facing life in prison he escaped and went to a state with the death penalty to get in some more (this time disorganized and frenzied) kills before he was caught and sentenced to death.

sociopaths vs psychopaths ~ the biggest difference is almost no real emotions, empathy, guilt, remorse and emotional attachments for a psychopath. a sociopath would feel bad if they hurt someone they loved but wouldn't care if it was a stranger. psychopaths just don't care, as a matter of fact upwards of 90 percent (they are like 1 percent of the population) have been to prison already. they are reckless risk takers and are manipulative and often good at faking emotions. they usually are good with charm as it fits they're narcissistic tendencies.

trump the nationalist ~ i see this as tribalism out of control. when you break down a liberal vs a conservative, they are pretty much polar opposites in their world views.
mostly religious (as many bad country are) -pro gun (fear) what's mine is mine (greed) -hostile to immigrants (threatened)
mostly believe in science -would rather police protect -happy to pay taxes for better quality of life for all -equality

i get i used super short hand re polar opposites and there are a lot more examples. here in .ca i have many conservative friends even tho we do have opposing views. because there is a middle ground that seems to be eluding your country at the moment.

honestly many canadians think you may not recover from trump. that china will lead the world. i get they are communist but that does not make us communists by their taking the lead. my god they are doing really good things that you should be leading on. i hope we are wrong but everyday more and more are losing hope re usa.

(yes i know what shit is about to hit from my honesty but whatev - get your shit together soon, please)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:14 pm 
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Trump has become accomplished at two things:

1. Weaponizing of our fucked up legal system to victimize innocent people. (Don't anybody call it a justice system. Justice doesn't have a fucking thing to do with it.)

2. Finding asshole shyster snake lawyers who are happy to weaponize this fucked up legal system for money. And yet they whine about running 1st or 2nd in pretty much every top 10 most hated professions list.

Indirectly without knowing he was doing it, like everything else he does.

Every word, every action is based only in his greed and narcissism, if he accidentally stumbles on something that ends up promoting his agenda of hate and crimes then that is always an accident.

Like finding lawyers, his father says "here is HALF A BILLION dollars and a list of names of organized crime members who will enforce your wishes on the condos you will be buying or turning into" - he bought apartments and turned them into condos because someone told him it would be profitable but often the tenants would try and use legal ways not to move so rump hired hit men to rough up or worse if necessary to get them to move...commonly talked about in NYC by those who know

He then has someone else do everything and even then it fucks up most of the time because his judge of character of who to hire is so warped.

He did not know what the term "strong dollar" meant, I am telling you, sincerely and no hyperbole, he knows nothing at all about any kind of business, nothing. I am not telling you as in educating you, I know you know this. Just saying this because it needs to be repeated over and over.

While typing I am reading that CNN is reporting that every single rump supporter doesnt care if he lies about everything...we knew this.

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Last edited by Libertas on Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:17 pm 
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Why does someone say "here in ca" and later "many think YOU will not recover from trump?"

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:29 pm 
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Why does someone say "here in ca" and later "many think YOU will not recover from trump?"


"someone" - could you be a little more passive aggressive? next time you have something to say to me, say it to me.

and i said .ca which is short for canada not ca

you'd think after i've used that abbreviation since way back on the rr boards and our what 18 years off and on different boards, you could piece things together a little better but great reply to a very real issue (sarcasm intended)

you've changed and as i already said once on this board, i find it seriously concerning. go to a doctor, take up yoga or meditation. find a way to let go because you are wound way to tight imo.

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Last edited by lucytalk on Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:26 pm 
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go to a doctor, wow, talk about a passive aggressive comment

I misread your abbreviation, I made a mistake..Simply clearing it up for me would have been enough, i would have instantly admitted I was wrong, which I am doing anyway

No need for the other stuff. BASED on what I THOUGHT it meant, I was using "someone" in a passive aggressive manner, true, but that was based on my misreading what you said. I find you to be overly assertive often and usually ignore that, but this doctor comment is beneath you and I have not changed one bit. I have been like this since day one.

Funny, actually, you bring this up. When I was the moderator of RRMB I had to hold back my anger. I asked to be released from that job on purpose so I could let my ANGER flow. It has not stopped since.

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"Corporate Democrat" phrase created at the same place "Angry Mob" was...People keep falling for rightwing talking points. How sad.


Last edited by Libertas on Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:31 pm 
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So, let me preface that as I have said I am not a sociologist, but I do teach some sociology. (I've explained why a few times.)

In understanding human behavior, far be it from me to say both biology (neurology/genetics) and psychology have nothing to do with it. Are we the products of both nature and nurture - yes. and we can debate till the end of time the percentages, but no I don't think people are born with something called a "human nature" from their genes and sociobiology that can't be shaped or remolded by later social forces.

I think the sociological insight is that human behavior is shaped by a) socialization/enculturation (which has a lot to do with parenting but it doesn't stop there - peers, extended kin, primary ed. etc. - raising you in a culture) and b) your social environment (which is more than just your family circumstances). I think we all are liberals because in part we know how poverty and growing up in "the wrong neighborhoods" affects people.

There has been a lot of debate recently over whether our political and ideological beliefs are genetic or neurological from birth. I don't think so, and here's why. The Alex Keaton effect. Why would two liberal parents have a conservative child, or vice versa? It's clear that political beliefs and ideologies are shaped by our life experiences and circumstances like everything else - no they are not totally "in our genes" or determined by our brain shape and size.

The main reason I mention this is, without getting into who is or is not a sociopath or psychopath, let's put things in this terms - we could simply individualize all bad antisocial behavior, but then how do we solve the problem ... beyond therapy and medication for individuals? We cannot medicalize all social problems.

If the cause of some of our social problems is the social environments that people live in, then one way to get a better society with more prosocial behavior is to improve peoples' social environments and conditions.

This is why I'm a liberal, and why I believe those social programs glen always brings up - why do I support them? - because, especially as been shown of Head Start - THEY WORK.

I hope that doesn't drive anybody crazy, but it's definitely my opinion.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:41 pm 
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Prof, this is unhealthy.

How much time would you spend doing physical activity if there were no message boards, no FB, no Twitter, etc?

I wonder myself, since I have nothing to do all day and do this, what would I do? Soon I will be completely retired in that I wont come to an office and do nothing all day, so I wont pull out my laptop and do this all day, I will play video games or play with grandchildren...If we are alive, that is. After November, that is. Or if we have homes to live in, that is.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:42 pm 
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Haha, I stayed miles away from sosh in school, where the prevailing attitude was that sociologists take up 40 pages with qual/quant research, just to state the obvious. I don't really believe that these days, but I'm actually much more humanities than social sciences.

And who the hell wants to take g.d. stats!?


Some of the social and behavioral sciences are interested in qualitative data, and emic data, as much as, if not more, than quantitative data, etic data, and statistics, and even what that kind of data can also tell us about human life. Because while it can't be counted, not everything in life can be. This is why some have argued that field operates at an intersection of the social sciences and the humanities.

It may even be why some folks think I come out of the humanities (philosophy, history, etc.)

Some of us want to understand what it means to be human by looking at more than JUST modern European (or Euro-based) societies.

"Oh no, I've said too much, I haven't said enough". ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:45 pm 
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Prof, this is unhealthy.


Sure, and so's playing Xbox.

Everything in balance.

P.S. one never knows what we might be doing on the treadmill or stationary bike. :D

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:47 pm 
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Sure, and so's playing Xbox.

Everything in balance.

P.S. one never knows what we might be doing on the treadmill or stationary bike. :D

Exactly, Xbox is also. If I buy a treadmill imagine the nightmare it will be when I try and put it back in the box. :rw)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:12 pm 
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go to a doctor, wow, talk about a passive aggressive comment

I misread your abbreviation, I made a mistake..Simply clearing it up for me would have been enough, i would have instantly admitted I was wrong, which I am doing anyway

No need for the other stuff. BASED on what I THOUGHT it meant, I was using "someone" in a passive aggressive manner, true, but that was based on my misreading what you said. I find you to be overly assertive often and usually ignore that, but this doctor comment is beneath you and I have not changed one bit. I have been like this since day one.

Funny, actually, you bring this up. When I was the moderator of RRMB I had to hold back my anger. I asked to be released from that job on purpose so I could let my ANGER flow. It has not stopped since.


there is absolutely nothing passive aggressive about my suggesting you go to a doctor. dude i am honestly worried about your health. at times i can feel your blood pressure going thru the roof. and why, cause some trump troll on the internet pisses you off. not worth dying for imo.

i tend to be assertive and have no problem arguing for what i believe. funny you think it's a character flaw in me but not in someone like carmen eh.

but you have changed. think if you asked you family and real life friends if you have changed they'd side with me or you? no need to reply but be honest with your answer. then accept that someone you don't know but has been in and out of your life for 18 years may be concerned for a reason.

if you really need to let your anger flow then please take up tennis or some other sport that is a better suited avenue then this. i am not asking you not to argue or fight here but you need to find balance imo. and i highly recommend downloading a free meditation app like 10 percent happier.

i get i might be way outta line here and if you really want i will edit this post down to nothing. but at least you will have read what i feel.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:04 pm 
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Some of the social and behavioral sciences are interested in qualitative data, and emic data, as much as, if not more, than quantitative data, etic data, and statistics, and even what that kind of data can also tell us about human life. Because while it can't be counted, not everything in life can be. This is why some have argued that field operates at an intersection of the social sciences and the humanities.

It may even be why some folks think I come out of the humanities (philosophy, history, etc.)

Some of us want to understand what it means to be human by looking at more than JUST modern European (or Euro-based) societies.

"Oh no, I've said too much, I haven't said enough". ;)


Yeah one of my bffs is in anthro and they came to that via film studies. Another one of my bffs is also in the same branch of anthro and came to it from the hard sciences (biology) and women and gender studies. The sosh people I know are entirely qualitative people and yeah they happen to have started out as humanities and/or "-studies" people. I never did read the C. Wright Mills classic, and perhaps it's overdue in my life, but they're mainly out of that school. And yeah, even these broad humanities/social sciences lines aren't so starkly drawn.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:44 pm 
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i find this thread so fascinating, i'm not even sure where to begin.

okay 1st i'd totally argue ted buddy was indeed a psychopath. yes after he was caught in colorado and facing life in prison he escaped and went to a state with the death penalty to get in some more (this time disorganized and frenzied) kills before he was caught and sentenced to death.

sociopaths vs psychopaths ~ the biggest difference is almost no real emotions, empathy, guilt, remorse and emotional attachments for a psychopath. a sociopath would feel bad if they hurt someone they loved but wouldn't care if it was a stranger. psychopaths just don't care, as a matter of fact upwards of 90 percent (they are like 1 percent of the population) have been to prison already. they are reckless risk takers and are manipulative and often good at faking emotions. they usually are good with charm as it fits they're narcissistic tendencies.

trump the nationalist ~ i see this as tribalism out of control. when you break down a liberal vs a conservative, they are pretty much polar opposites in their world views.
mostly religious (as many bad country are) -pro gun (fear) what's mine is mine (greed) -hostile to immigrants (threatened)
mostly believe in science -would rather police protect -happy to pay taxes for better quality of life for all -equality

i get i used super short hand re polar opposites and there are a lot more examples. here in .ca i have many conservative friends even tho we do have opposing views. because there is a middle ground that seems to be eluding your country at the moment.

honestly many canadians think you may not recover from trump. that china will lead the world. i get they are communist but that does not make us communists by their taking the lead. my god they are doing really good things that you should be leading on. i hope we are wrong but everyday more and more are losing hope re usa.

(yes i know what shit is about to hit from my honesty but whatev - get your shit together soon, please)


Ok well, look. We've been having versions of this conversation for 14 years. I really think that a country where a "Canada first" fascist gets 25,000 votes to be mayor of one of it's most populous and flagship cities has got serious problems of its own that it's not dealing with.

I would also apply a similar critique to that news story as I do to my own country, that these conditions where whites vote for fascists don't crop up out of the blue because of one person. What we're seeing now in the US comes from very longstanding problems that date back to way before any of us here were around. Both Canada and the US are settler-colonizer countries that have had white-supremacist/whites-rule discrimination baked right into laws and policies. Like us, .ca is still dealing with the results of many of those. So while everyone is clutching their pearls about Faith Goldy today, I'm not.

I do like that hashtag #votelikeblackwomen for somewhat obvious reasons but also for those not so obvious. I don't think Black women are any less prone to bots, trolls or other forms of propaganda than the average conservative white or any one else of the majority, but that the ability to see through politicized bullcrap is learned, not innate.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:54 pm 
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So, Canada IMHO deals with some of the same, and some different, issues.

No history of slavery - same reasons as the U.S. North - IMHO not an excess of virtue, but the wrong climate for sugar and cotton plantations, so no slavery economy.

Still, there's a weird history ... one story my dad told me about when he was stationed in Canada for the Geophysical Year during his military service at Fort Churchill, the Canadians wouldn't allow American blacks on the base. This was early 50s.

Issues of ethnic conflict between Anglo-Canadians and Franco-Canadians ... well that goes back to the 18th century ... still stuff simmering in Quebec, though I think the separatist/independence movement there has lessened.

As far as their history with First Nations ... well yeah, in the past and in the present. Then there's the Metis ... complicated.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:03 pm 
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So, Canada IMHO deals with some of the same, and some different, issues.

No history of slavery - same reasons as the U.S. North - IMHO not an excess of virtue, but the wrong climate for sugar and cotton plantations, so no slavery economy.

Still, there's a weird history ... one story my dad told me about when he was stationed in Canada for the Geophysical Year during his military service at Fort Churchill, the Canadians wouldn't allow American blacks on the base. This was early 50s.

Issues of ethnic conflict between Anglo-Canadians and Franco-Canadians ... well that goes back to the 18th century ... still stuff simmering in Quebec, though I think the separatist/independence movement there has lessened.

As far as their history with First Nations ... well yeah, in the past and in the present. Then there's the Metis ... complicated.


And also, [yes bracketing their First Nations policies] there is a very poor history of segregation by race affecting African-Canadians and Asian-Canadians. Japanese internment, as well.

There's the prevailing mythology, some of which is factually true, about .ca being the destination point for the Underground Railroad. My parents met and married on one of the US last stops on that train.

But this doesn't exonerate the subsequent history. When Canadians tell me that, I hear "but the Republicans are the Party of Lincoln." Somewhat like my parents moving from Buffalo to southern California, those escaping slavery were just met with more segregationism and second-class citizenship. The end of segregationism in housing and education paralled our own, though I guess without all the bus burnings and murder. I think sometimes Canadians do not understand this about the United States.

http://www.blackhistorycanada.ca/events ... eid=7&id=9

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Last edited by carmenjonze on Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:25 pm 
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Ok well, look. We've been having versions of this conversation for 14 years. I really think that a country where a "Canada first" fascist gets 25,000 votes to be mayor of one of it's most populous and flagship cities has got serious problems of its own that it's not dealing with.

I would also apply a similar critique to that news story as I do to my own country, that these conditions where whites vote for fascists don't crop up out of the blue because of one person. What we're seeing now in the US comes from very longstanding problems that date back to way before any of us here were around. Both Canada and the US are settler-colonizer countries that have had white-supremacist/whites-rule discrimination baked right into laws and policies. Like us, .ca is still dealing with the results of many of those. So while everyone is clutching their pearls about Faith Goldy today, I'm not.

I do like that hashtag #votelikeblackwomen for somewhat obvious reasons but also for those not so obvious. I don't think Black women are any less prone to bots, trolls or other forms of propaganda than the average conservative white or any one else of the majority, but that the ability to see through politicized bullcrap is learned, not innate.


goldy got 25,000 votes out of over 700,000 for mayor.

i recently removed a real life friend of mine from facebook. i could take her rah rah trump bs but when she backed kavanaugh at ford's expense with some bullshit propaganda, i had enough.

in our history, we probably treated indians the worst and we have tried to correct our mistake by giving reparations to the first nations.

sure we have racists and problems of our own but we are not the leader of the free world.

we should all vote like black women ~ if i'm not mistaken they are the only group of people who consistently vote in their own self interest.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:38 pm 
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goldy got 25,000 votes out of over 700,000 for mayor.

i recently removed a real life friend of mine from facebook. i could take her rah rah trump bs but when she backed kavanaugh at ford's expense with some bullshit propaganda, i had enough.

in our history, we probably treated indians the worst and we have tried to correct our mistake by giving reparations to the first nations.

sure we have racists and problems of our own but we are not the leader of the free world.

we should all vote like black women ~ if i'm not mistaken they are the only group of people who consistently vote in their own self interest.


25,000 votes out of not even 3 quarter million and finishing third in Toronto is a lot of votes. But my point is a little different and not a new one. Canada, like the US, has imminent far-right political issues that focusing on the United States isn't going to help. Canada famously follows what the leader of the free world does. So I hope they take the lead in snuffing out their own rightwing problems sooner than later lest they end up with Faith Goldys, Doug Fords, or worse for PM.

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Last edited by carmenjonze on Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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