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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:44 am 
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Before we get in our reflexive condemnation mode ... so did many other countries.

Trump says 'All options on table' as Venezuela crisis deepens
Juan Guaidó stakes claim as 14 killed in two nights of protests
Defiant Maduro urges supporters to ‘resist at all costs’
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... ews-latest

Venezuela’s opposition leader, Juan Guaidó, has secured significant international support after declaring himself interim president in a bid to force out Nicolás Maduro as two nights of unrest gripped the country, leading to the deaths of 14 people.

Guaidó was quickly recognised by the US, Canada, Brazil, Colombia and other US allies in the Americas, while the European Union said the voice of the people “cannot be ignored”.

Donald Trump warned that “all options are on the table” if Maduro – who has overseen the country’s slide into authoritarianism and economic ruin – responded with force against the opposition. Vice president Mike Pence later made clear the US would use “the full weight of our diplomatic and economic pressure. US officials said the US would look at ways to transfer Venezuelan assets and oil revenues to Guaidó and the opposition-run national assembly.

[snip]

MPs in Russia, a major Venezuelan ally, criticised US actions against Maduro. “The United States is trying to carry out an operation to organise the next ‘colour revolution’ in Venezuela,” Andrei Klimov, the deputy chairman of the foreign affairs committee of the upper house of parliament, said, using a term for the popular uprisings that unseated leaders in Georgia, Ukraine and Kyrgyzstan.

[snip]

Asked if would consider a military option if Maduro refused to cede power, the US president said: “We’re not considering anything but all options on the table. All options, always, all options are on the table.”

Pence was more specific in a television interview on Wednesday night. “The United States is going to continue to bring the full weight of our economic and diplomatic pressure until freedom and democracy and fair elections are restored for the people of Venezuela,” he told the Fox Business Network.

Pence said the administration had made a distinction between US intervention in the Americas and elsewhere.

“President Trump has made no secret of the fact that he is not a fan of American deployments all over the world and American entanglements,” he told Trish Regan Primetime. “And yet President Trump has always had a very different view of our hemisphere. He’s long understood that the United States has a special responsibility to support and nurture democracy and freedom in this hemisphere and that’s a longstanding tradition.” (*)

Canada’s foreign minister, Chrystia Freeland, said Maduro’s government was “now fully entrenched as a dictatorship”, and called on him to hand power to the national assembly until new elections were held.

[snip]

But it is unclear how solid that support is. Guaidó and the opposition-held national assembly have sought to peel away the military, offering an amnesty to members of the armed forces who help bring about a return to democracy. This week, authorities arrested 27 national guardsmen who tried to launch an uprising against Maduro.

[snip][end]

(*) Ahhh, so the no-quite-so-isolationists/anti-interventionists are still into the Monroe Doctrine, I see. We're against interventionism, until somebody fucks with "our" hemisphere, apparently anything called "the Americas" still belongs to Uncle Sam.

Please note, I am not advocating support for military intervention in Venezuela. But, the word maduro is Spanish means a soft, spongy plantain. They make the worst dictators. The Venezuelan people need to get rid of that spoiled banana.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:48 am 
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Sigh. All options are on the table. I am so tired of that dick measuring challenge.

Yep, the people of Venezuela need to do something about their situation. Of course the last time we “got rid of a bloodthirsty dictator” the people didn’t give us flowers.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:56 am 
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I think it's fascinating, and very revealing, once again, for people who, like certain Timmehs, seem to think Trump is some kind of pacifist. :roll:

He's the kind of pacifist who loves military parades, I suppose. :roll:

Oh, but Hillary was the real war hawk. :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:15 pm 
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Maduro is, as pointed out, a dictator. Chavez was bad...he's much worse.

That said, I'm not sure what gives Guaido legitimacy to be president. (not saying its not there....maybe someone can explain).

So sad what's become of Venezuela.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:35 pm 
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Per se, nothing.

Maduro supposedly won re-election for a 2nd term in January, that some are calling illegitimate.

Guaido is the president of the National Assembly (kinda like a senate majority leader), but only has been for 3 weeks.

Then he declared himself acting president of Venezuela. His party, Popular Will, has only 14 seats in the parliament (out of 167), but is currently part of the coalition of opposition parties that now has a majority in it. A majority in parliament voted to affirm this declaration.

Is that Constitutional? Mexico and Bolivia and some other LatAm countries (I'm not mentioning those outside the hemisphere, like Turkey) say that move violates the Venezuelan constitution.

Obviously, Maduro does not recognize it. And Guaido doesn't recognize the legitimacy of his re-election.

OK. Here's an explanation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Guaidó#Interim_President_of_Venezuela

After what he and others described as the "illegitimate" inauguration of Maduro on 10 January 2019, Guaidó announced he would challenge Maduro's claim and held a rally the following day, where the National Assembly announced he had assumed the powers and duties of president and they would continue to plan to remove Maduro, contributing to the presidential crisis.[30][31] The Venezuelan foreign minister responded with saying "You see this man, who nobody knows in Venezuela—you ask in the streets, 'Who is Juan Guaidó?' and nobody knows him—but he's being pushed to say that he is the new president, by the U.S"

[snip]

Guaidó is recognized as the interim president of Venezuela by Argentina, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Denmark, Ecuador, Guatemala, Honduras, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Sweden, United Kingdom and the United States. (*)

[snip][end]

BTW, Guaido is claiming he does not have permanent powers, he is just doing this on an interim basis, until Venezuela has a new set of proper, fair elections.

Anyway, Maduro is saying this is all a U.S. coup, and is currently once again trying to remove U.S. ambassadors and personnel from the country.

Just saw in the Herald that thousands of Doral Venezuelans living nearby in what we loving call "Little Doralzuela" were holding rallies for Guaido.

Personally, it looks to me like things are heading to civil war. :(

(*) I should note, obviously, the number of countries recognizing you doesn't really answer whether or not your position is constitutional according to your own country's constitution. :D

Of course, if Maduro's election was not a fair, free, and legitimate election either ... huh, has that discussion been going around lately? :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:33 pm 
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Before we get in our reflexive condemnation mode ... so did many other countries.


I like how you began. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:48 pm 
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Underlying the current crisis is a Weimar Germany type hyperinflation, with prices rising some unbelievable number of percent, to the point where the currency is worthless. You know, the stage where it's cheaper to burn it for fuel than to buy fuel with it.

I won't even try to figure out the causes. Could be Chavez (before he died). Could be Maduro. Could be the oil market. Could be the CIA. I don't know.

I know the effect. That place is headed for implosion, then armed combat, followed by the installation of a government friendly to either the US or Russia, and more than willing to sell oil VERY cheap. One hopes that the US military isn't ordered into what could become another quagmire really easily.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:14 pm 
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The only thing that's messed up in my mom's homeland was the National Assembly Maduro was dead wrong for butting in & changing it to his liking because none of his policies were advancing & was scared he would be impeached but outside of that he runs the country.


Last edited by ap215 on Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:47 pm 
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Your mom's Venezuelan? Cool. I have known a painter from there for most of my life. It's not the stereotypical South American country, if such a thing even exists. I'm pretty familiar with the government issues there, and whether you loved Chavez or hated him, Maduro is just ¿como se dice Schmuck en Español?

The collapse of the currency is still a problem, as it would be anywhere.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:31 pm 
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Schmuck in spanish means imbécil.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:38 pm 
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As I've joked about a few times, Doral (a Miami suburb) is so full of Venezuelan expats, they call it "Little Doralzuela". The Mayor is Venezuelan American, and you can't swing a stick without hitting a place that serves arepas.

When he was among the living, one of the places Anthony Bourdain came to visit here was Pepito's Plaza, a place that basically serves Venezuelan food inside a gas station. He was like that.

So, BTW, I notice when stuff is going down, I see more and more cars flying Venezuelan flags. I'm starting to see that. :D

I was not a Chavez fan either, when he raided a Jewish Community Center claiming they had something to do with a coup against him, I started getting a bad feeling. Never liked him; and Maduro seems to lack his charisma, so he needs to swing a bigger stick.

The word "schmuck" BTW in German means "jewel". Yes, I know what it means in Yiddish. There's all kind of slang terms for it in Spanish, the Cubans often say !pinga!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:20 pm 
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Doral is actually my summer home my aunt who's from Caracas purchased a condo there she commutes back & forth.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:08 pm 
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That's cool AP. The Canadian snowbirds flee in summer, so we have extra room. :mrgreen:

Haven't met too many folks in Doral who like Maduro, well, I'm guessing it's got something to do with why they're here. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:35 am 
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Friday briefing: Consider leaving Venezuela, US tells its citizens
Opposition supporters hold rallies against Venezuelan president Nicolas Maduro’s government.
Defence chief says moves to oust President Maduro risk ‘chaos’ … Queen’s ‘common ground’ advice … Matthew Flinders’ grave found
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... s-citizens

Just below:
Top story: Juan Guaidó offers amnesty if president goes quietly

U.S. diplomats and citizens are being told to leave the country.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:41 pm 
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It figures Putin would get involved & buy this whole Oil issue.

Exclusive: Kremlin-linked contractors help guard Venezuela's Maduro - sources

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Private military contractors who do secret missions for Russia flew into Venezuela in the past few days to beef up security for President Nicolas Maduro in the face of U.S.-backed opposition protests, according to two people close to them.

A third source close to the Russian contractors also told Reuters there was a contingent of them in Venezuela, but could not say when they arrived or what their role was.

https://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFKCN1PJ22Q


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:55 pm 
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a couple of thoughts on this, whats the united states position/ relationship on free and fair elections for its own people and what kind of economic system does it want for and have for them? maybe that gives us insight on what they are trying to acomplish.

on the interim leader designation its what they call john engler when he came in to protect the image and money of msu from being tainted by people the school hurt.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:35 pm 
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EU parliament recognises Juan Guaido as Venezuela's interim president after formal vote

The European Parliament has voted to recognise Venezuela's opposition leader Juan Guaido as the country's interim president.

In a move designed to keep pressure on President Nicolas Maduro, lawmakers voted in a non-binding resolution to recognise Mr Guaido as the country's de-facto leader and called on all EU governments to follow suit.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 56116.html


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:24 am 
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its revealing the corrupt heads of state

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:06 am 
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He's coming to Doral. Yeh, traffic delays.

Vice President Mike Pence To Take Part In Venezuela Roundtable In Doral Today
https://miami.cbslocal.com/2019/02/01/v ... ral-today/

The meeting will take place at Iglesia Doral Jesus Worship Center. (*)

Expected to be at the roundtable discussion is Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, Senator Marco Rubio, Senator Rick Scott, and Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart.

Afterward, Pence is expected to make public remarks in support of Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaido.

[snip][end]

(*) uh. separation of church and state?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:25 am 
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Venezuela detains foreign journalists amid crackdown on protests
Five journalists, three working for Spanish news agency EFE and two French reporters, detained in Venezuela this week.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/ ... 59425.html

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:04 am 
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My apologies in advance if this has already been suggested in previous posts...but here goes.

Like everything else, this is about Trump pandering to his white christian bigot base. Trump doesn't have enough interest or brain power to recognize this himself, but I'm certain that it's been buzzed into his ear by Millier or Pompeo, or one of the other assholes. The Maduro regime is a continuation of the Chavez regime. Although Chavez ran the country with a mix of bad communist and capitalist power base agendas, the right continues to insist the Chavez was an America hating communist. And the right has worked hard to depict Maduro as the heir of that legacy.

So what is Trump's endorsement of Guaido all about. It's about looking like an anti-communist to his bigot base. BTW - I don't even think that day by day being re-elected even means all that much to Trump. He is so emotionally disorganized and disregulated that all the matters to him is the feeling he gets when he walks into one of his rallies and gets all that worship and adoration. He gets that and he can feel great for the next week or so, until the next scheduled worship rally. At the bottom of it all, this is what it's all about.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:13 am 
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Some of it is also a power play for Florida votes in 2020, as now both Cuban Americans and Venezuelan Americans are big voting blocs in South Florida, which usually otherwise goes blue.

That's why Pence is here.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:18 pm 
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they say they are concerned for the welfare of Venezuelan people but the only aid they offer is to install a right wing dictator.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:28 pm 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Will

Popular Will (Spanish: Voluntad Popular; VP) is a centrist social-democratic political party in Venezuela admitted into the Socialist International in December 2014,[2] founded by former Mayor of Chacao, Leopoldo López, who is its national co-ordinator. The party currently holds 14 out of 167 seats in the Venezuelan National Assembly, the country's parliament, and is a member of the Democratic Unity Roundtable, the electoral coalition that currently holds a supermajority in the National Assembly.

The party was formed in reaction to alleged infringements of individual freedom and human rights on the part of the government of the Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez and his successor, Nicolás Maduro. The party attempts to bring together Venezuelans of various backgrounds who consider “chavismo” oppressive and authoritarian. Popular Will self-identifies itself as “a pluralist and democratic movement” that is committed to “progress,” which it defines as the realization of “the social, economic, political, and human rights of every Venezuelan.”[3]

The party’s "fundamental pillars" are progress, democracy, and social action.

[snip][end]

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:23 pm 
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ProfessorX wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Will

Popular Will (Spanish: Voluntad Popular; VP) is a centrist social-democratic political party in Venezuela admitted into the Socialist International in December 2014,[2] founded by former Mayor of Chacao, Leopoldo López, who is its national co-ordinator. The party currently holds 14 out of 167 seats in the Venezuelan National Assembly, the country's parliament, and is a member of the Democratic Unity Roundtable, the electoral coalition that currently holds a supermajority in the National Assembly.

The party was formed in reaction to alleged infringements of individual freedom and human rights on the part of the government of the Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez and his successor, Nicolás Maduro. The party attempts to bring together Venezuelans of various backgrounds who consider “chavismo” oppressive and authoritarian. Popular Will self-identifies itself as “a pluralist and democratic movement” that is committed to “progress,” which it defines as the realization of “the social, economic, political, and human rights of every Venezuelan.”[3]



The party’s "fundamental pillars" are progress, democracy, and social action.

[snip][end]


so in other words they want those things progress, democracy, and social action....... to a lesser degree than most people and they have the support of trump and other corrupt heads of state.

Guaido refuses to rule out accepting US military support

Quote:
But he hopes it doesn't come to that


Quote:
..........Self-declared interim president of Venezuela Juan Guaido has refused to rule out accepting US military support amid the escalating political crisis, saying that the Venezuelan people want to end President Nicolas Maduro's dictatorship with "whatever ................pressure is necessary."

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