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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:02 pm 
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Stuff is not history. History has not been harmed.

History is not harmed but the loss of the works of the artists and builders could have been catastrophic. In many instances, the history becomes more real when we're able to see and tour the building historical greats have built or where history took place. The history of Westminster Abbey would remain but it wouldn't be as impactful had Westminster Abbey had been destroyed. Oe of the favorite tours throughout Europe is visiting castles and seeing how people lived centuries ago and learning about how the castle influenced local, regional, and national history.

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Things like this are good for an economy. It taps into stagnate church funds and gets it back out in circulation. It creates years of work for many thousands of craftspeople.

In this case it will keep alive some craft arts which have been dying out. Some craft houses might get to be passed on to another generation.

I disagree. The destruction of historical buildings isn't a good idea to boost an economy. The loss of history from the destruction of these buildings, it could be argued, would mean tourism would be lost which would impact the local economy. The craft arts could save by investing in the restoration of historical buildings which would help the economy while preserving the craft arts.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:10 pm 
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And really, even if "history" isn't harmed, the loss of historic art works makes for a duller world. Think if the pyramids had been completely destroyed before we were born.

I'd love it if the Colossus of Rhodes or the Hanging Gardens of Babylon had survived, e.g.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:32 pm 
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History is not harmed but the loss of the works of the artists and builders could have been catastrophic. In many instances, the history becomes more real when we're able to see and tour the building historical greats have built or where history took place. The history of Westminster Abbey would remain but it wouldn't be as impactful had Westminster Abbey had been destroyed. Oe of the favorite tours throughout Europe is visiting castles and seeing how people lived centuries ago and learning about how the castle influenced local, regional, and national history.


I disagree. The destruction of historical buildings isn't a good idea to boost an economy. The loss of history from the destruction of these buildings, it could be argued, would mean tourism would be lost which would impact the local economy. The craft arts could save by investing in the restoration of historical buildings which would help the economy while preserving the craft arts.


I'm not promoting the idea that one ought to torch a building to generate work and invigorate an economy.

I'm seeing and noting the not so entirely bad elements in the aftermath of what has happened.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:53 pm 
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I'm not promoting the idea that one ought to torch a building to generate work and invigorate an economy.

I'm seeing and noting the not so entirely bad elements in the aftermath of what has happened.

Okay. Rebuilding will help, temporarily, their economy but their economy is large enough that doing so will have little impact on the economy.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:27 am 
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I'm pointing out the only good things I can think off about rebuilding it.

As far as I'm concerned I would level the foundation and biuld a hospital or college in it's place.

As far as I'm concerned I can't see a bit of difference between it and a US Civil War memorial next to government capitol buildings. Both symbolize the same old shit. Conservatism!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:57 am 
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A CBS headline says, "Two of the world's richest French billionaires donating a combined $300 million to rebuild Notre Dame."


I say oh looky there, oligarchs are already bellying up with some real cash to rebuild the greatest symbol for the justification and authority of their system, who's surprised?

Just as soon as the restoration is finished it would be just and fitting to crown a French King there, again, wouldn't it???


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:26 am 
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And here comes the raging conspiracy theories about the fire color me shocked

Conspiracy theories about the Notre Dame fire are already beginning to spread

When the fire at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris began in the late afternoon on 15 April, millions of people across the world began to pour out sympathy for Parisians, sadness at the loss of the historic landmark, and, inevitably, holiday photos snapped while visiting the iconic building. But among the sympathetic messages posted about Notre Dame cathedral came another type of post – fake news, misinformation, and conspiracy theories about what caused the fire. As with most major tragedies in the last decade, misinformation about Notre Dame began to spread almost immediately. Within a matter of hours, conspiracy theories were flourishing online.

False claims surrounding the fire have found a home on sites like 4chan, Twitter, Reddit, and InfoWars. “MAN ARRESTED AFTER GAS TANKS FOUND NEAR CATHEDRAL, SUSPECT WAS ON FRENCH TERROR WATCH LIST”, “SUSPICIOUS LOOKING MAN SPOTTED ATOP NOTRE DAME CHAPEL AS ROOF IS A BLAZE”, and “Macron has probably set fire to Notre Dame to try and make the Yellow vests look bad” are typical of the messages that have been posted over the last 15 hours.

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/euro ... ing-spread


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:10 pm 
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I'm pointing out the only good things I can think off about rebuilding it.

As far as I'm concerned I would level the foundation and biuld a hospital or college in it's place.

As far as I'm concerned I can't see a bit of difference between it and a US Civil War memorial next to government capitol buildings. Both symbolize the same old shit. Conservatism!!!

I disagree. Nortre Dame is a historical site and an iconic symbol of France and to tear it down and build something else would be a loss to France and European history. Why not tear down the museums and destroy the works of arts they contain to build a hospital or a college? Hell, we could tear down the Statue of Liberty and replace it with a hospital to handle highly contagious diseases. Replace The Mall in Washington DC and put a junior college there.

No, Notre Dame has been there for 800 years and its historical significance to the city of Paris, and vice versa, is worth keeping.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:33 pm 
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Stuff is not history. History has not been harmed.

Things like this are good for an economy. It taps into stagnate church funds and gets it back out in circulation. It creates years of work for many thousands of craftspeople.

In this case it will keep alive some craft arts which have been dying out. Some craft houses might get to be passed on to another generation.


Stuff in this case is art, and reflects the highest aspirations of the race. Now, these aspirations sound silly to us, but then the people in the 1200s undoubtedly would have yelled WITCH at anyone wanting to build huge rockets and actually go to those lights in the sky that God had put up there for us. They figured a decent Gothic spire was close enough.

Far as crafts go, cathedrals tend to take many decades if not centuries to build, and indeed such crafts as stone masonry are passed down. I think they finally finished the National Cathedral in DC (neat building BTW), but St. John the Divine near Columbia U is still in work, and was set back by their own fire.

The best thing for the economy right now would be the Green New Deal. That would put everybody to work, and save our heritage let alone our own asses.

Notre Dame looks salvageable, though it will take a long time and yes, put a lot of people in building trades to work.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:46 pm 
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The interior is in amazingly good shape. Most of the stone work in the ceiling held up. There's a gaping hole in the middle where the spire fell into it, and a couple of feet of smoking debris is on the floor there. That's pretty much it. The wooden pews are intact, the pulpit and altar are there, and I have an unconfirmed report that the organ and one or two of the rose windows are still there. Catholics have made a big thing out of the first image that got out, which gave proof through the night that their Cross was still there.

There was a plan, which executed as well as these plans ever do. People out first, art and relics out second, then de-ass the area and let the pros fight the fire. They got everyone out, and a lot of the stuff. At one point fire fighters were saving stuff. You might say that if well-crafted kitsch survives long enough it becomes art, but that's for another movie. It's old, it's skillfully made, it's valued, and if a pile of shit in the middle of a gallery is art, then who's to say it isn't art.

Supposedly they rescued a piece of The Crown of Thorns, and in Easter Week no less. Well, I can't speak for the validity of these relics, but they venerated it and they saved it. Good. Works for me. A lot of people worship numbers in a balance sheet which say they're richer than the next guy. Whatever floats your boat.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:29 pm 
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I don't think one needs to be politically conservative, which I am not, to say there is an argument for conservation of artistic, historic, and cultural heritage, which I think there is. :D

Many political liberals I've known were actively involved in the historic preservation movement.

I've heard many French folks say Notre Dame matters to them as French, even if they're not Catholic - it's a national symbol. The zero milestone for measuring distances around France is outside the cathedral. The Ile de Cite represents the beginnings of the originally humble village of Paris. I get that.

It's also part of their literature, Victor Hugo, and their heritage.

BTW, in case anybody wants to come back to the Confederate monuments issue, I have personally always argued they are part of history, but where they belong is in museums to be studied in context, rather than maintained as public monuments to be venerated (which should not be the case).

No, I do not want history erased, but there is some history that should not be idolatrized with public funds and support.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:16 pm 
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Plus the confederate "monuments" aren't really historical items at all, but cheaply constructed statues created many decades after the actual history, and for a different purpose. Personally, I don't even want to see them in a museum. Maybe represent them all with one statue...say...of Bozo the Clown.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:02 pm 
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I personally think it's fine to photograph them, display the photos in the museum, and destroy the originals. :D

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:07 pm 
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++++++++ :D

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:56 pm 
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I noticed that the roof was made from lead. It was in reading about the color of the fire which gave me the clue to look into that. Looking into the details about that is not all that easy.

Here is something I found about the roof over the spire which was built in 1860, it was covered by 210, or 250 tons of lead sheeting. The rest of the roof is much larger in extent but I have not been able to determine how much lead covered it.

http://passerelles.bnf.fr/techniques/ca ... ris_02.php

That lead is about as oxidized as lead can get oxidized, I doubt more than half of it would be recoverable by melting and drawing off the pure metal. The half which is oxidized would form a crust and be vaporized and become a part of the smoke. Within a ten mile radius most of it would fall out of the air. A microscopic layer covering everything.

Think of it as toxic fallout. :|


If the main roof contained a proportional amount of lead per square foot as the spire did, then when the whole roof and the spire burned and if half of it became fallout then my guess is that about a thousand tons of toxic lead fallout was produced to fall on the downwind parts of Paris.

:(

I know what a thousand tons of metal is like. It's like a small coastal freighter. Something some people would call a ship. I would call it a small ship.

------

I know about a Superfund place where air born toxic lead fallout happened. I worked on the HVAC systems in water recovery plant they were building to deal with the liquid mess left inside of lead smelter grounds itself, and I watched while other people worked to recover the ten mile radius of landscape surrounding that smelter.

They only dealt with the yards around houses, and they now restrict new building on the still contaminated land, most of it. What they did was scoop up the top 3 to 4 inches of dirt off of the top of the world, and hauled it to a landfill. Everyone had to wear coveralls and a respirator.

Mostly folks were moving away from that little company town. I think they were trying to get people to move away. Watching workers wearing respirators scooping up your yard when you don't have a respirator to wear is kind of terrifying. They're only in it for a few hours a day on work days, but you're in it all day everyday, and all night every night.

At night one has time to think about it, and time to drink. A lot of drinking was being done at night. I helped them with that part. :)

People sure were moving away. It was a good place to move away from. The place is called East Helena, Montana. Not to be confused with the state Capitol in Helena, Montana, about ten miles to the West, up wind.

I looked it up and since then I find that toxic scare only kept them away for about 20 years. It's population is now back to what it was before their town became a Superfund site.

Some people aren't very smart. :(


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:53 pm 
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Notre Dame had a huge amount of lead in the parts that burned, which does account for the color of the smoke. Looking at the wind direction makes me wonder how much of the Left Bank is now the French equivalent of a Superfund site.

Great. The UK is imploding and Paris is a haz-mat zone. Better we should have booked a trip to Yemen.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:41 pm 
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https://gigarama.ru/notredame/

up real close

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:00 pm 
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That beautiful building...all that history. So very very sad.

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