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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:22 pm 
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These are Alice Miller's own words:

J. Konrad Stettbacher was a Swiss Primal Therapist accused of physically and sexually abusing his patients, including Alice's own son, Martin.

http://www.primals.org/articles/turton12.html

Miller: . . . since August, 1994, I no longer recommend Stettbacher's therapy and today I hold that primary therapy is fundamentally obsolete. In the epilogue to the new "Drama," I besides argue that primal therapy, even more than other forms of therapy, can be used to manipulate patients, because it begins with a several weeks long intensive phase, the so called 'Basis'.

Tuschy: Have you had your own experience with the intensive phase called Basis which is so invasive?

Miller: Unfortunately, yes, not with Stettbacher, but with another primal therapist. I hold that what was expected of me was irresponsible. At the end of these three weeks my feelings were in a turmoil, so that I could not find sleep, that for the first time in my life I thought of suicide, and had anxiety verging on the psychotic. I was already fearful of this therapy that robbed my organism of sleep, but I could nowhere escape it. The ghosts that I called for did not allow themselves to be chased away. Despite this desperation, I wanted no medicine.

[snip]

Tuschy: Have you, in both your primal therapies, been able to lift your childhood amnesia?

Miller: Not really.

[snip]

"Such things as the darkened-room setting and the intensive phase in primal therapy strongly encourage regression, sometimes to the point of total helplessness on the part of the patient and an attendant uncritical idealization of the therapist. This regression to the status of a small child puts the patient in an extremely vulnerable position where he/she can easily be taken advantage of by an insensitive therapist." (p. 121)

[snip]

"Today I know that a method that is successful for one person will not necessarily be successful for another. This applies to all methods, and primal therapy is no exception. Some people insist that it saved their lives; others say that they got nothing out of it, that in fact it did them considerable harm. Then again there are people who have benefited from therapy without being confronted with the past at all.

[snip]

In the last few years I have come to the conclusion that primal therapy is not always free of dangers, that it is imperative for it to be embarked upon under expert guidance and not as a form of self-therapy. This conclusion is tantamount to a retraction of my earlier ideas on this subject.

. . . Numerous studies on cult groups have enlightened us on the latest methods of human manipulation. It transpires that these groups frequently use primal therapy techniques to brainwash the members they have recruited into a state of regression and thus make them completely docile and malleable. Thus primal therapy runs the risk of being misused for commercial purposes and reinforcing the individual's dependency on the group rather than encouraging his autonomy, as I had originally hoped. Today, however, therapists are using new approaches with awareness both of the advantages of primal therapy (its closeness to feelings) and of its dangers (manipulation and addictive dependency on pain), and they attempt to use this awareness to the benefit of their patients.

[snip]

"In the meantime a number of years have passed and I now have access to further information that has made me more skeptical about primal therapy as a form of self-help. The quick successes have not always had a lasting effect, and in many cases massive anxieties set in, so strong that clients found it impossible to cope with them without therapeutic support."

[snip][end]

http://screamsfromchildhood.com/martin_miller.html

This dynamic showed up in the most fatal way when the young man, in his late twenties, plunged into a crisis, and his mother wanted to coerce him into treatment with her guru, the Bernese "primal therapist" Konrad Stettbacher. He swore by forcing his victims into regression as they had to remain for days in a dark cell, in order to promote "catharsis." Desperately, Martin Miller agreed in 1992 to enter treatment with a student of Stettbacher. The audiotape recordings of the sessions were passed on, behind the patient's back, to the "guru" who discussed it all with mother Miller. Ultimate betrayal. Stettbacher even induced Alice Miller to thwart the approbation of her "infantile" son. "It was a time of persecution," writes Martin Miller, "I received threatening letters, she alleged that I had lied, she accused me of failure, and worse." In this hell, the son was close to suicide. His famous mother saw him as a "monster."

[snip]

Martin Miller sued Stettbacher and was proven right. The guru that also allegedly sexually abused patients was unmasked as a charlatan, and Alice Miller instructed the Suhrkamp publishing house to delete the hymns to the man from her books. In a letter of May 28, 1998, she apologized to her son, she had not wanted to be a possessive, hate-filled, dangerous, destructive mother. But now she was old enough to bear the truth. "I was able to empathize with so many people, only with my son I could not empathize." Why, she could not explain. Maybe, because she had never really been able to empathize with herself as a child? Because projections onto the divorced husband or onto the son provided her false satisfaction? Because fame became her narcissistic compensation?

[snip][end]

Alice Miller's own son was abused by a Primal Therapist, it's why she later repudiated it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:38 am 
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What's this thread about?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:36 am 
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Cranks, all.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:17 am 
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What's this thread about?


0. I believe the title is legible and not cut off. :D

1. It was requested I provide people with firsthand experience with a therapeutic technique. I admit we've been discussing this for a long time in threads where it was off topic. I have done so. Noting the evaluations of an author who has been cited here several times. And moved it to its own thread.

2. I believe in a duty to warn, which is why I will note complaints against anti-vaxxers, just as one example. The problem I have with anti-vax beliefs is not just that they are wrong, but could also be dangerous. Some kinds of woo I don't feel it's as important to address. Thinking pyramids can sharpen your razor blades is woo, but also harmless. Don't feel the need to really spend much time or energy on pyramid power.
2a. Ms. Miller has identified some dangers.

3. Alice Miller is dead, I wish PT really was no longer being practiced today but it is, but I believe this is still a current issue, and even in a way has political ramifications, so I put this thread here.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:15 am 
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What does Stettbacher have to do with Art Janov?
Nothing. He developed his own "Primal Therapy" based on the books of Janov and Alice Miller. Stettbacher had no formal education or training in psychotherapy...from Art Janov or anybody else.

Try having a smidgen of integrity.

From:
Alice Miller - Communication To My Readers

Quote:
When I gave this form of therapy my support, I was proceeding on the justified assumption that, like myself, Mr. Stettbacher was a fully trained psychoanalyst and was in possession of a normal licence to practise psychotherapy. Only in 1994 did I learn that he had no formal qualifications in psychology and that, while years before he had indeed been granted a provisional licence to practise, this licence was conditional upon the fulfilment of a number of essential requirements, notably that within a period of five years Stettbacher must provide proof of having undergone the necessary basic professional training (not merely further training).

As Stettbacher failed to conform to this requirement, his provisional licence was withdrawn, and as of June 1995 he has been formally prohibited from conducting a psychotherapeutic practice in Berne, Switzerland, his place of residence.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:18 am 
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What does Stettbacher have to do with Art Janov?
Nothing. He developed his own "Primal Therapy" based on the books of Janov and Alice Miller. Stettbacher had no formal education or training on psychotherapy...from Art Janov or anybody else.

Try having a smidgen of integrity.


Does primal therapy cure homosexuality?

Did you ever try curing your sexual orientation with primal therapy?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:22 am 
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What does Stettbacher have to do with Art Janov?
Nothing. He developed his own "Primal Therapy" based on the books of Janov and Alice Miller. Stettbacher had no formal education or training in psychotherapy...from Art Janov or anybody else.

Try having a smidgen of integrity.


Oh shut up with the cult slogans. You know damn well I'm being "suppressive and glib". :mrgreen:

If they don't want to be associated with him, they should take his book review page off the International Primal Association.
http://www.primals.org/articles/soulsman.html

Just saying. I would have done it already, BTW, given the accusations against him.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:24 am 
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What does Stettbacher have to do with Art Janov?

He developed his own "Primal Therapy" based on the books of Janov and Alice Miller.


If he didn't want people using these techniques, he shouldn't have put them in his books.

BTW, if it's actual science, it can be applied by anybody, without having to be trained directly by the person who came up with the technique.

The psychoanalysts in CA do not have to show that they trained directly under Sigmund Freud. Good thing. He's dead.

Look, Ike, Carmen has that question up above she's asked you several times, here's mine: (it's a multi parter)

1. Do we have memories from before birth?
2. Can people actually relive their in utero experiences through primal therapy?
3. Going back to 1., how on Earth would that be possible?

The hippocampus, which is involved in storing memory, is not fully formed in the fetus.

And yes, given the shit I'm dealing with, which is not unique to me (never said it was),

4. Can primal therapy cure cancer? If the answer's yes ... explain why without anecdotes of people you've met. The mechanism is what I'm looking for.

A non-evasive answer to 4 would be wondrous. Without getting into heart disease, asthma, or colitis.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:40 am 
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And you think the International Primal Association is affiliated in any way with Janov's Primal Center in Santa Monica or with Janov's Primal Foundation?

I can only find one professional listed on the "Association" website who was ever even on the staff at the Primal Center. If there were more, they would be promoting it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:47 am 
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The hippocampus, which is involved in storing memory, is not fully formed in the fetus.

And yes, given the shit I'm dealing with, which is not unique to me (never said it was),

4. Can primal therapy cure cancer? If the answer's yes ... explain why without anecdotes of people you've met. The mechanism is what I'm looking for.

A non-evasive answer to 4 would be wondrous. Without getting into heart disease, asthma, or colitis.



Beats me. And I don't give a shit if it can or it cannot cure cancer or if Art ever said he believed it could. I think the human body can cure cancer. Could the human body of someone who was treated in one of Art's facilities cure cancer? Sure...why not?

PS - the hippocampus is not the only part of the brain involved in the storing of memory.

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Ike: Well y'know babe, there are a lot of folks to whom you could say "all lives matter" and who would turn around and call you a racist for it."

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Last edited by Ike Bana on Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:48 am 
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All these damn sectarian schisms. Who can keep track?

Yes, I read up. They modified his approach.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primal_Integration

Still:
http://www.primals.org/reading.html

Their Reading List has several books by Art Janov, several by Alice Miller, and ... bunch of other people.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:52 am 
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Beats me.


And that Art said it could (cure cancer) - we can go back to his blog - I should just ignore that? Maybe because he never discussed that with you personally?

Quote:
PS - the hippocampus is not the only part of the brain involved in the storing of memory.


Didn't say it was. But it's important. Why not answer my question, though? Yes or no will do.

Do we have memories from before birth? Yes or no answer, Ike.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:54 am 
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Could the human body of someone who was treated in one of Art's facilities cure cancer? Sure...why not?


Wrong question. Not why not. Why? How? "The human body can do it". Great. WTF does that mean? I know you were in mental health, but didn't you get some other rudimentary medical education?
Spontaneous (untreated) remission of cancer happens, but it is extremely rare. How would primal therapy affect this process? I know we have an immune system, and it is affected by stress.

I can tell you my Mom is taking an immunotherapy drug which boosts her immune response. I'm not saying meditation, relaxation, or anything else that affects her stress levels wouldn't help, but her oncologist is not focusing on recommending that.

I sure as fuck am not going to have me scream at her or vice versa and think either of us will get better.

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Last edited by ProfessorX on Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:59 am 
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I
I think the human body can cure cancer. Could the human body of someone who was treated in one of Art's facilities cure cancer? Sure...why not?


Do you feel that the human body can cure homosexuality?

Did you impose, inflict or use primal therapy methods on your social work clients?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:10 pm 
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And you think the International Primal Association is affiliated in any way with Janov's Primal Center in Santa Monica or with Janov's Primal Foundation?

I can only find one professional listed on the "Association" website who was ever even on the staff at the Primal Center. If there were more, they would be promoting it.


I'm pretty sure the International Primal Association is located in this light tan condominium building in the end unit, behind the massage parlor in the red brick building on the main street. That's where Google maps says to find it.

Image

That "International" part of their name appears to be their primal scream.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:40 pm 
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Didn't say it was. But it's important. Why not answer my question, though? Yes or no will do.

Do we have memories from before birth? Yes or no answer, Ike.


You're so demanding. Is this how you operate at home? "Hey! You gonna suck this? Yes or no?"

Anyway my answer is...yeah, sure. But it depends on what kind of memory you're talking about.

PS - we used to talk regularly about all sorts of stuff in the books that we never saw in the therapy, or that we agreed with or didn't or that we didnt hve a shit what it said in the book.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:49 pm 
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I accidentally just read one sentence of Ike, before I realized it was him...

He is now talking about people's homes and their relationships...I wish he would be kicked off the board given he violates every rule every day.

This is not a joke, are we gonna read about him shooting a bunch of people soon?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:07 pm 
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I accidentally just read one sentence of Ike, before I realized it was him...

He is now talking about people's homes and their relationships...I wish he would be kicked off the board given he violates every rule every day.

This is not a joke, are we gonna read about him shooting a bunch of people soon?


Hysteria rules.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:10 pm 
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Actually, in our social group at the Institute, nobody gave a shit in Freud's hat for stuff in the book that wasn't in our treatment. We were so fuckin' happy the book got us there that it didn't, and still doesn't matter.

Did I feel ripped off that I never once screamed or had a birth primal? No. Relieved actually. Who TF wants a birth primal? Not me, man. Thrashing around, spit and snots flyin' everywhere...gross and exhausting.

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Ike: Well y'know babe, there are a lot of folks to whom you could say "all lives matter" and who would turn around and call you a racist for it."

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:19 pm 
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I accidentally just read one sentence of Ike, before I realized it was him...

He is now talking about people's homes and their relationships...I wish he would be kicked off the board given he violates every rule every day.

This is not a joke, are we gonna read about him shooting a bunch of people soon?


You're wishing that, I would wish you would accompany him on his departure.

But where would that be, the board would be left with about six or so remaining. Pretty soon it would be like Nichole's board, there would be four or five posts made each day, stopping by once a week filled about fifteen minutes in the one in seven day.

:(

So I'm resistant to forcing anyone to leave. If I had something to wish for it would have been that you had not terrorized Known2B into leaving. She told me it was you.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:46 pm 
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You're so demanding. Is this how you operate at home? "Hey! You gonna suck this? Yes or no?"


No Ike. Laquanna prefers for me to talk to everybody else about her tits and how magnificent they are. Also, just to refer to her as "the dark haired chick". BTW, Laquanna has heard all about you and would probably kick your ass if she met you. She wants you to know.

Thing is, she thinks you might enjoy it, too.

Quote:
But it depends on what kind of memory you're talking about.


OK. Let's clarify. Looks like there is some evidence of short term memory in fetuses at around 30-38 weeks. They remember stimuli. They habituate.
https://www.livescience.com/5585-fetuses-memories.html

No detailed long term memories of experiences. So I guess Jerry Pollock ... talking about having detailed memories of swimming around in the womb and meeting his twin through primal therapy ... not quite matching what the science has found. Yeah, I know I'm leaving off the part about the past life visits to the spirit world. Generally, science is doubtful of any concrete, long term memories before age 2.
https://www.livescience.com/63109-first ... ional.html

Quote:
PS - we used to talk regularly about all sorts of stuff in the books that we never saw in the therapy, or that we agreed with or didn't or that we didnt have a shit what it said in the book.


So Art's books are full of bullshit, but you just sat and laughed at the bullshit. Because the non bullshit worked! He made whacky claims, but, whatever "nothing to do with what we did back then". And guys like Jerry Pollock who say they are using primal therapy to revisit their life in the womb? "Well, who gives a shit." "The rest works for us". "OK, that birth primal stuff is bizarre, but never had to do it." And finally, when people come out and say some of the stuff you were doing was abusive, "Well, they weren't trained directly by Art." That some people took it so badly they killed themselves, "oh who gives a fuck?"

You're making it sound so convincing. :roll:

Tom Cruise and John Travolta also say they're so happy that L. Ron has improved their lives and made them so happy, they're gonna ignore (or at least not talk about) the Xenu and Thetan crap, too. Oh, and Leah Remini. She was just a fuckup in the system. Couldn't even set the E-Meter properly. :roll: Don't listen to what she says about it.

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Last edited by ProfessorX on Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:19 pm 
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So I'm resistant to forcing anyone to leave.


Well, AP will probably still post a few stories a day.

Just nobody to read them. :| Kind of a "tree falling in the forest, with no one to hear," problem.

Nicole still has her chat room. It has about 4-5 regulars. Basically all repeating to each other and Nicole, "Boy that Bernie is so awesome and going to win any day."

Randi's ... a lot more busy. Along with that comes the more frequent troll invasions. Close to probability of 1 some troll will think they are being original by asking if she is the dead guitarist Randy Rhoads. BTW, I've mentioned this MB there many times. Nobody's shown up.

I'm gonna be honest. I really think it has less to do with how anybody acts here, then, that, weird people like me who still occasionally like to engage in long form discussion with whole paragraphs are becoming rarer. The culture of Usenet, places like AOL (yes, there was a day, when I used it), where I came from, well the next gen never went through that. MBs are becoming passe. People if they want to talk politics at all are doing it on Facebook. I think it sucks for it (even without the rampant disinfo), but ... things are where they are.

BTW, I predict some activity here will pick up right around the general election. It always does. Not necessarily "good" activity. But it could be 'entertaining', and I understand some people long for that.

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Last edited by ProfessorX on Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:51 pm 
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No Ike. Laquanna prefers for me to talk to everybody else about her tits and how magnificent they are. Also, just to refer to her as "the dark haired chick". BTW, Laquanna has heard all about you and would probably kick your ass if she met you. She wants you to know.

Thing is, she thinks you might enjoy it, too.



OK. Let's clarify. Looks like there is some evidence of short term memory in fetuses at around 30-38 weeks. They remember stimuli. They habituate.
https://www.livescience.com/5585-fetuses-memories.html

No detailed long term memories of experiences. So I guess Jerry Pollock ... talking about having detailed memories of swimming around in the womb and meeting his twin through primal therapy ... not quite matching what the science has found. Yeah, I know I'm leaving off the part about the past life visits to the spirit world. Generally, science is doubtful of any concrete, long term memories before age 2.
https://www.livescience.com/63109-first ... ional.html



So Art's books are full of bullshit, but you just sat and laughed at the bullshit. Because the non bullshit worked! He made whacky claims, but, whatever "nothing to do with what we did back then". And guys like Jerry Pollock who say they are using primal therapy to revisit their life in the womb? "Well, who gives a shit." "The rest works for us". "OK, that birth primal stuff is bizarre, but never had to do it." And finally, when people come out and say some of the stuff you were doing was abusive, "Well, they weren't trained directly by Art." That some people took it so badly they killed themselves, "oh who gives a fuck?"

You're making it sound so convincing. :roll:

Tom Cruise and John Travolta also say they're so happy that L. Ron has improved their lives and made them so happy, they're gonna ignore (or at least not talk about) the Xenu and Thetan crap, too. Oh, and Leah Remini. She was just a fuckup in the system. Couldn't even set the E-Meter properly. :roll: Don't listen to what she says about it.


You and your long form discussion.

Here's how it works. I say what I have to say about something.

You restate it, long form in five times as many words, saying something completely different from my words, while insisting that your words are my words.

What we call that in my neighborhood is the disingenuous long form discussion.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:18 pm 
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I say what I have to say about something.


Got anything to say about curing homosexuality with primal therapy?

You ever tried it on your clients?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:33 pm 
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while insisting that your words are my words.


Uh. No. However, that is what you sound like to me.

Short enough?

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