Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

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ZoWie
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

Post by ZoWie »

Oh, that became the mantra. We were finally rid of that hippie peacenik silliness. We'd gone back to being real men with real ways to win wars. The whole conservative regeneration since has been a series of old convenient distortions being given shiny new paint.

I saw it happen.

Newton's First Law Of History: For every action there is an equally silly and completely opposite reaction.

Actually Viet Nam was a wee bit before my time, so I don't pretend to know why we got in, but I certainly got to witness how we got out. We tried to fight WWII in a totally changed version of Southeast Asia, and we got our stupid buts kicked. Therefore we developed Shock and Awe, and the Neocons were itching to test it somewhere. Also there was zero tolerance for those foreign types raising the price of OUR oil that just happened to be under THEIR sand.

All this is pre-9/11, therefore a different age, but of course the unsettling thing about post-9/11 is how little the world actually changed after it became clear what the new transnational way of doing things looked like. What's happening right now sure looks like the REALLY old way of doing things is trying to make a comeback.

History, after all, is a series of interacting cycles.
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

Post by Drak »

No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen
@NoLieWithBTC

56m
Here is Trump and his supporters yesterday in Waco with their hands over their hearts while a pro-January 6 insurrection anthem — NOT the US national anthem — plays.

The screen is playing footage of MAGA insurrectionists attacking the Capitol.

They are EMBRACING violence.


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https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status ... 7672653826
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

Post by ZoWie »

Better refresh the National Guard training on street confrontations and urban warfare. We're gonna need them.
"We must remember that we cannot abandon the truth and remain a free nation." --Liz Cheney, Republican, 7/21/22
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

Post by Motor City »

ZoWie wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:08 pm Oh, that became the mantra. We were finally rid of that hippie peacenik silliness. We'd gone back to being real men with real ways to win wars. The whole conservative regeneration since has been a series of old convenient distortions being given shiny new paint.

I saw it happen.

Newton's First Law Of History: For every action there is an equally silly and completely opposite reaction.

Actually Viet Nam was a wee bit before my time, so I don't pretend to know why we got in, but I certainly got to witness how we got out. We tried to fight WWII in a totally changed version of Southeast Asia, and we got our stupid buts kicked. Therefore we developed Shock and Awe, and the Neocons were itching to test it somewhere. Also there was zero tolerance for those foreign types raising the price of OUR oil that just happened to be under THEIR sand.

All this is pre-9/11, therefore a different age, but of course the unsettling thing about post-9/11 is how little the world actually changed after it became clear what the new transnational way of doing things looked like. What's happening right now sure looks like the REALLY old way of doing things is trying to make a comeback.

History, after all, is a series of interacting cycles.
yea and having a candidate represent a small percentage of the population that leaves probably 3/4 of the American people without representation or justice or economic access or means or access to health care is likely why trump has any chance at all. Its the horrifyingly silly and equal reaction to that action.

Not sure what exact percentage but this idea of representing the small but powerful group of americans at the detriment of everyone else is most appealing to that small group and scary and confusing and outrageous to the rest. Need a candidate that does for more people, appeals to more, to not have such a reaction as we've been going through the last 40 or more years.
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

Post by Motor City »

gounion wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:44 am It was the comparison you are making I disagree with. It's just like Glenn comparing Trump to all other presidents to pretend he's nothing special. Sorry, McVeigh is a monster unto himself. He's not like anyone else.
I wasnt making the point that he was normal or like anyone else, heres what some of the people in his unit and the military said about him.
....“He performed well in what he did and what he was asked to do,” said Norman Adkins, 26, of Charleston, W. Va, who served with McVeigh in the Gulf War.

McVeigh won seven medals and a service ribbon, including the Bronze Star.

“His selfless actions were key to the flawless execution of the mission, the liberation of Kuwait and the ultimate defeat of the Iraqi Army,” reads McVeigh’s Bronze Star certificate. “Sgt. McVeigh’s flawless devotion to duty truly exemplifies the finest traditions of the military service and reflects great credit upon him, the 1st Infantry Division (Mechanized), and the United States Army.”...
Troops in Distinguished Ft. Riley Unit Resent Notoriety From McVeigh Ties
The 16th Infantry Regiment here boasts a long and distinguished combat record. It fought at Manassas and Gettysburg. It was the first unit to hit Omaha Beach on D-Day in 1944. It has earned its motto: “Always Ready.”
But the 16th’s storied history is in the process of adding an embarrassing footnote. For the last week, a small army of FBI agents has swarmed over the tree-lined, campus-like setting of Ft. Riley, interviewing soldiers about a former sergeant who is the prime suspect in the worst civilian bombing in American history.

Current and former soldiers of the 16th say they are furious that the stellar reputation of their unit is being tarnished by the arrest of Timothy J. McVeigh, who was decorated for his service in the Persian Gulf War. Members of McVeigh’s old unit, C Company, 2nd Battalion, 1st Mechanized Infantry, are dismayed.

“I’m very proud of Charlie Company and the years I spent there,” said Fritz Curnutte of West Virginia, who served with McVeigh at Ft. Riley. “You’ve got one man who ruined it really. It’s a shame. Charlie Company taught him better.”

Last week’s arrest of McVeigh in connection with the Oklahoma City bombing--which has claimed 118 victims and left about 90 missing--is the third tragedy to hit the regiment in seven weeks. Two separate shootings in or near the unit’s Custer Hill barracks left three soldiers dead, one wounded and an entire battalion stunned, triggering a series of counseling sessions and suicide prevention seminars.

Now, as McVeigh is under heavy guard at a federal prison outside Oklahoma City and Terry Lynn Nichols, another former soldier from the 16th, is being held in Wichita on conspiracy and explosives charges, Ft. Riley personnel are asking if the elusive “John Doe No. 2” is also a former member of the unit.....



....Several soldiers volunteered that McVeigh’s arrest compounded the difficulty of coping with the two recent acts of violence in the 16th Infantry’s barracks.

Spec. Brian Stoutenburg, 24, of Grand Blanc, Mich., was found dead of an apparent suicide in his quarters on April 6.

On March 2, Pfc. Maurice Wilford, 20, of Cleveland, armed with a 12-gauge shotgun and apparently angry with his supervisor, randomly shot and killed two other soldiers and wounded another before fatally shooting himself, authorities said....
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

Post by gounion »

Motor City wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:24 pm I wasnt making the point that he was normal or like anyone else, heres what some of the people in his unit and the military said about him.
You were equating McVeigh's actions with President Bush's actions. I will always call bullshit on that.
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:46 am I see you stand with McVeigh and the lies of the right about what happened that day.

And YES it's why Trump did it. But hey, you always say he's innocent, don't you?
I am sure had Waco happened under a republican administration you would be saying the same thing.
Aa I am sure even with your lack of self awareness you are aware.
He'll. I agree with you Trump went there only because it was the anniversary of the Clinton slaughter
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

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Glennfs wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:32 pm I am sure had Waco happened under a republican administration you would be saying the same thing.
Aa I am sure even with your lack of self awareness you are aware.
He'll. I agree with you Trump went there only because it was the anniversary of the Clinton slaughter
The Branch Davidians weren't anyone's fault. It was a bunch of nuts. There's no good way to handle it.

But that certainly IS an admission that it's just something to blame Clinton for that you wouldn't blame a Republican for.

So you're on board with Trump looking for the next McVeigh. Nice that you put politics before human lives.
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:35 pm The Branch Davidians weren't anyone's fault. It was a bunch of nuts. There's no good way to handle it.

But that certainly IS an admission that it's just something to blame Clinton for that you wouldn't blame a Republican for.

So you're on board with Trump looking for the next McVeigh. Nice that you put politics before human lives.
And you would be saying that exact same thing if GW had been president.
As for putting politics before human lives I am glad to see you've changed your opinion on the marines who were attacked under Reagan.
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

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Glennfs wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:41 pm And you would be saying that exact same thing if GW had been president.
As for putting politics before human lives I am glad to see you've changed your opinion on the marines who were attacked under Reagan.
Nope. Something had to be done in Waco. What happened was the fault of the Davidians. They decided to kill themselves.

And Reagan and the Marines? That wasn't Reagan's fault. Now, how Reagan was handling things was bad - he was DARING terrorists to hit us. He basically was saying "if you hit us, we'll find you and kill you". After the barracks, he couldn't do anything because the ones that did it killed themselves in the process. So, he pulled our troops out, proving to people like Bin Laden that, if you hit us hard enough, we'd turn tail and run.

Do YOU think Reagan was right in turning tail and running?

And let's be clear: GW proved Bin Laden right - we did what Bin Laden wanted in Saudi Arabia - we shut down our bases and pulled out of the nation. 9/11 accomplished Al Quada's objectives.
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

Post by ZoWie »

Indeed Saudi Arabia seems to have come out the major beneficiary of 9/11. It always seemed ironic, since supposedly the US bases near Mecca holy sites were what got Osama Bin Laden going in the first place. So a rogue Saudi killed 3000 Americans, and we went to war, and yes we moved the bases to Afghanistan etc, and the perp "somehow" escaped a US military action where they had him cornered. As the story goes, goober bush delayed authorizing it just long enough that Osama could run for the border. I always wondered whether the Bushes and the rest of the Bin Laden family being beneficiaries of good Saudi relations and good Saudi oil had something to do with that. Glenn has probably repressed the part about how it took a DEMOCRATIC president to finally give the order and take the f--ker out.

More relevant right now is the stated intention of drumpf to let Putin take Ukraine and who knows what else, restoring the "Iron Curtain." It seems that the red-baiting hysteria on that side of the aisle is now history that they'd rather we forgot, given that this time the Russian despot is being egged on by one of their fellow oligarchs.

Strange bedfellows indeed, as goes the cliche about what politics is best at making.
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

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ZoWie wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:25 pm Indeed Saudi Arabia seems to have come out the major beneficiary of 9/11. It always seemed ironic, since supposedly the US bases near Mecca holy sites were what got Osama Bin Laden going in the first place. So a rogue Saudi killed 3000 Americans, and we went to war, and yes we moved the bases to Afghanistan etc, and the perp "somehow" escaped a US military action where they had him cornered. As the story goes, goober bush delayed authorizing it just long enough that Osama could run for the border. I always wondered whether the Bushes and the rest of the Bin Laden family being beneficiaries of good Saudi relations and good Saudi oil had something to do with that. Glenn has probably repressed the part about how it took a DEMOCRATIC president to finally give the order and take the f--ker out.

More relevant right now is the stated intention of drumpf to let Putin take Ukraine and who knows what else, restoring the "Iron Curtain." It seems that the red-baiting hysteria on that side of the aisle is now history that they'd rather we forgot, given that this time the Russian despot is being egged on by one of their fellow oligarchs.

Strange bedfellows indeed, as goes the cliche about what politics is best at making.
I always thought that, after 9/11, all they needed to do to really screw us up was to have some easy attacks, like taking a few folks and some AR-15s into a mall here and there. But there was ABSOLUTELY nothing. Now, we all know that Bush Sr. Was with the Bin Ladens as the attacks happened, and they had a long relationship with the family - the Bin Ladens bankrolled a couple of Bush Jr’s early companies that he ran into the gutter.

So I always wondered if there was a deal cut - if the USA didn’t go after Bin Laden, then Al Quada wouldn’t hit the USA again. They didn’t, at all, while Jr famously said “I just don’t think about Bin Laden”.

Was a deal cut? Who knows. I’ll always wonder, though. Because there was no logical reason that we took our eye off Bin Laden.
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

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This image is one i'll never forget all that talk Bush Jr. did on the bullhorn after 9/11 was all a photo opt & total bullshit oh they heard from us alright he & Karl Rove are total scum. <problem>

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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

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When we went into Afghanistan, supposedly to capture or kill the Al Quada leadership, instead of sending our elite troops in, we hired Afghans to go after them. Of course, everyone said you can’t do that, because they’ll take our money, but they’ll take Bin Laden’s, too. Which they did. They bribed the people we hired to let them slip through to Pakistan.

It just seemed like the Bush Administration didn’t WANT to capture Bin Laden - they were more interested on going after Saddam, I guess to show W’s daddy that he could do what daddy chose not to do - get Saddam.
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

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"He tried to kill my daddy." --goober
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

Post by Number6 »

ZoWie wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:47 am "He tried to kill my daddy." --goober
Yep, he needed reasons for a war and that was the weakest one but it personalized it for the public. A nation should never go to war because the parent leader of a country was killed or there was an attempt on their life. That smacks of the old world when we had Kings and Queens who could send their country to war over any perceived insult or excuse.
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

Post by Motor City »

This is the type mcveigh drove in the gulf war wasnt it.

US speeds up Abrams tank delivery to Ukraine war zone
The Pentagon is speeding up its delivery of Abrams tanks to Ukraine, opting to send a refurbished older model that can be ready faster, with the aim of getting the 70-ton battle powerhouses to the war zone by the fall, the Pentagon said Tuesday.

The original plan was to send Ukraine 31 of the newer M1A2 Abrams, which could have taken a year or two to build and ship. But officials said the decision was made to send the older M1A1 version, which can be taken from Army stocks....
Looks like the plans are for long drawn out war, just as the train that crashed in ohio was like a mile long and had all that momentum in the back end while trying to brake on the front end, so is the manufacture tied to the war in a similar way.
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

Post by ZoWie »

Actually, it was a mile and a half long, and braking becomes a big problem in trains this long, adding to all the other problems implied by its being controlled by one or two overworked people who don't even get paid sick leave.

Also this train wasn't equipped with e-brakes, because it didn't have to be, thanks to the usual resistance to legislation that would impose costs on private companies.

Since this celebrated derailment, there have been several more chemical accidents, including the recent dumping of chemicals from a ruptured pipe into the Delaware River, after which the entire city of Philadelphia was told to drink bottled water, which of course instantly disappeared from the stores. Now we are told that the river is safe.

Interesting how a tiny handful of people can get teachers and administrators fired for imaginary pornography, while meanwhile real lives are endangered on a more or less daily basis with nary a peep from anybody. Chemicals and guns. Which one will get you first?
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

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Wow, Tom Tomorrow finds Glenn for an interview!

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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:14 am Wow, Tom Tomorrow finds Glenn for an interview!

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You guys live in a world like a fictional novel. Believing that Trump would see jail time for his alleged crimes.

Now if he were a private citizen he probably would get 18months or so in club fed.
But, here in the world of reality not only logistically would it be near impossible.

The image of the United States locking
away a former president for a minor crime or whatever the kangaroo court in Georgia comes up with would be damaging.

My favorite laugh was when you said he shouldn’t get bail if arrested.

Personally I believe he should be arrested and given a fair trial if that is even possible. Then if found guilty suspended sentence and a fine.

However. I doubt he could receive a fair trial. On one hand it could be the OJ jury and he found innocent in a few minutes.

On the other hand if we had 12 GoUs the prosecution would only need to stand up, present no evidence. Call no witnesses, simply say the prosecution rests. Then in about 5 minutes the guilty verdict would be in.
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

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Former leaders have been jailed or charged all over the world
https://www.axios.com/2022/08/26/countr ... ed-charged

Of course, every time these political leaders say it is just a witch hunt by their opponents. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Some are charged; fewer are sentenced, but it happens. As usual, we may not all agree in each instance. :D Netanyahu has been potentially indicted but is serving as Israeli PM now. Lula deSilva was indicted for corruption; he's now the leader of Brazil. The bottom line is nobody should be above the law. I don't care if they are left, right, center, up, or down.

So far, the only U.S. POTUS to be arrested has been Ulysses S. Grant. Over a fairly minor offense - speeding in a horse and buggy in 1872. (After I read this, I found it hard to believe there WERE speed ordinances in those days. But I guess a horse can pick up a pretty high speed in a residential neighborhood, I suppose).

We'll never know if Nixon would have been indicted post-presidency, due to Ford's preemptive pardon. There was a brief attempt to limit Secret Service protection for ex presidents to ten years, but Obama ended that in 2013. So yes, I suppose, IF he went to prison, Trump would be required I suppose to have Secret Service stationed outside his cell. I think the country can afford & manage it. :mrgreen:
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:55 am You guys live in a world like a fictional novel. Believing that Trump would see jail time for his alleged crimes.

Now if he were a private citizen he probably would get 18months or so in club fed.
But, here in the world of reality not only logistically would it be near impossible.

The image of the United States locking
away a former president for a minor crime or whatever the kangaroo court in Georgia comes up with would be damaging.

My favorite laugh was when you said he shouldn’t get bail if arrested.

Personally I believe he should be arrested and given a fair trial if that is even possible. Then if found guilty suspended sentence and a fine.

However. I doubt he could receive a fair trial. On one hand it could be the OJ jury and he found innocent in a few minutes.

On the other hand if we had 12 GoUs the prosecution would only need to stand up, present no evidence. Call no witnesses, simply say the prosecution rests. Then in about 5 minutes the guilty verdict would be in.
People who danced to Trump's tune are getting far more than 18 months. Cohen got more than that for doing Trump's bidding.

Cohen got a fair trial, Trump will get a fair trial. And the evidence already public against Trump in Georgia for election tampering is overwhelming.

But I predicted long ago you would attack any prosecution against Trump.

The cartoon is as if you yourself were being interviewed. All you want to do is piss off liberals. You always throw away any principles.
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

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So if Trump murdered Melania on TV, he doesn't go to jail because he's an ex president?

And sorry, Trump IS a private citizen. It's unprecedented for an ex president to see jail time. They also have a secret service detail which makes it tougher. But the stuff Trump has done, the crimes he's committed, is also unprecedented. And with that, things change.
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

Post by gounion »

Drak wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:48 am So if Trump murdered Melania on TV, he doesn't go to jail because he's an ex president?

And sorry, Trump IS a private citizen. It's unprecedented for an ex president to see jail time. They also have a secret service detail which makes it tougher. But the stuff Trump has done, the crimes he's committed, is also unprecedented. And with that, things change.
Glenn doesn't believe in the rule of law. He believes Trump is ABOVE the law. Any movement to hold Trump accountable is a Soros-backed witch hunt.
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Re: Trump holds rally in Waco, looking for next Tim McVeigh

Post by bird »

Glennfs wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:55 am You guys live in a world like a fictional novel. Believing that Trump would see jail time for his alleged crimes.

Now if he were a private citizen he probably would get 18months or so in club fed.
But, here in the world of reality not only logistically would it be near impossible.

The image of the United States locking
away a former president for a minor crime or whatever the kangaroo court in Georgia comes up with would be damaging.

My favorite laugh was when you said he shouldn’t get bail if arrested.

Personally I believe he should be arrested and given a fair trial if that is even possible. Then if found guilty suspended sentence and a fine.

However. I doubt he could receive a fair trial. On one hand it could be the OJ jury and he found innocent in a few minutes.

On the other hand if we had 12 GoUs the prosecution would only need to stand up, present no evidence. Call no witnesses, simply say the prosecution rests. Then in about 5 minutes the guilty verdict would be in.
Would be damaging to who (who, whom, I can never remember that)? If you think it would be damaging to the country, well, his presidency was damaging to the country on the world stage. Former presidents are nobody special. Yes, they get protection due to the secret information they saw or had access to. Few, if any, presidents did what Trump did. Nixon was driven by his, imo, inferiority complex to do what he did. His actions, though disgusting and likely criminal, did not damage the image of the country to the level of Trump’s entire presidency. Yes, Nixon should have been indicted and tried. He also had the sense to resign when his party made it plain that he needed to resign. Ford’s pardon was actually more damaging because it set a bad precedent that a president can engage in criminal activity during their time in office and suffer little to no consequences. That undermines the rule of law. Note that Trump is claiming that the rule of law is damaging for the country.

So, did Trump’s speech on the ellipse incite the violence that followed? Was his phone call to the Secretary of State of Georgia a criminal act? Did his call to Zelenskyy where he was threatening to withhold aid which was appropriated by congress a criminal act? What about Trump’s actions or lack thereof as the mob stormed the Capitol?

To allow a former president no matter who they are to be unaccountable is far more dangerous than holding them accountable.

As for paying a fine? No. That is meaningless.
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