Next Democratic Party Leader

[marindem01]

Opinions aren’t always based on facts. Sometimes they are. Further opinions on facts don’t always mean the opinion is true. Opinions are judgements. I don’t believe you substantiate all your opinions with factual support. Most people here don’t always support their opinions in that fashion including me. At least not from what I’ve seen.

I don’t take an opinion as a statement of fact. Sometimes I agree. Sometimes I don’t.

Glenn stated an opinion that has not been supported by any proof. End of story.

[JoeMemphis]

Glenn stated an opinion that has not been supported by any proof. End of story.

That’s okay by me Marin. I took if as nothing more than his personal opinion so I wasn’t looking for backup. Are we under oath?

[gounion]

There are a lot of good Dems on the bench ready to go in for our nation. Ones that, unlike Republicans, will uphold their oaths of office. They will put their country first. Republicans will not.

Mayor Pete comes to mind. Of course, the right will gay-bait him all the way.

[gounion]

That’s okay by me Marin. I took if as nothing more than his personal opinion so I wasn’t looking for backup. Are we under oath?

I dunno. Were you under oath when you made wild and false accusations against me?

[ProfX]

As there is no agreed upon definition how "to the left" someone is or isn't via any kind of objective measurement, yeah ... it's an opinion that's hard to substantiate.

There are sites that rate the voting records of politicians like Progressive Punch etc ... there is stuff like Political Compass that attempts to graph where they fall ideologically ... at the end of the day, it's hard to quantify and measure political ideology.

Fun fact, and this is true, Pelosi was one of the founders of the Congressional Progressive Caucus ... absolutely true. So there are things like that.

Then there is a basic argument as to whether political ideology is best measured on a line, or on a plane: see Nolan Chart. (It's what Political Compass uses.)

Either way, you're trying to abstract ideas into something you can measure on a graph ... can be tricky.

I mean, yes, to me it seems rather "common sense" that AOC is "to the left" of Joe Manchin ... the problem comes when you are making more granular comparisons.

[marindem01]

That’s okay by me Marin. I took if as nothing more than his personal opinion so I wasn’t looking for backup. Are we under oath?

I took it as a person who cannot back up his own Bull Shit. Political Opinion is based on fact. Without facts the opinion means nothing.

[JoeMemphis]

I took it as a person who cannot back up his own Bull Shit. Political Opinion is based on fact. Without facts the opinion means nothing.

“Political Opinion is based on fact.” That hasn’t been my experience in the 50+ years I’ve been voting. It certainly hasn’t been the case recently. But if it works for you then I’m happy for you.

I would think long and hard about making that statement at a gathering unless you want to be laughed out of the room. Politics is one of the least fact based profession I know. Watch any primary debate.

Of course that’s just my opinion. I can’t prove it’s validity anymore than you can prove the original statement.

[gounion]

“Political Opinion is based on fact.” That hasn’t been my experience in the 50+ years I’ve been voting. It certainly hasn’t been the case recently. But if it works for you then I’m happy for you.

I would think long and hard about making that statement at a gathering unless you want to be laughed out of the room. Politics is one of the least fact based profession I know. Watch any primary debate.

Of course that’s just my opinion. I can’t prove it’s validity anymore than you can prove the original statement.

I'm sure you're used to being laughed out of the room.

It sure happens to you here!

[carmenjonze]

Before anyone starts whataboutery yes the exact same thing is true of the extreme right.

Bogus comparison, Mister Apples Oranges.

"The extreme right" as it exists in today's Republican Party is the same extreme right that implemented atrocities like criminalizing homosexuality, forced childbirth for rape victims, segregation, boarding schools, and immigration from western Europe, only.

You guys are the same people today that you were a generation ago and earlier, when you were Reaganoids, Nixionites, Dixiecrats, Eisenhower, and Hooverville Republicans. And Lincoln was an Indian killer.

You even wave the same slavery flag and rationalize attacks on this country's capitol.

What you are calling the extreme left is center left. The actual "extreme left" is people who have never held power here, such as socialists, communist totalitarian governments like Cuba, the PRC, North Korea and the old USSR; Maoists like Shining Path, etc.

[ZoWie]

Then there is a basic argument as to whether political ideology is best measured on a line, or on a plane: see Nolan Chart. (It's what Political Compass uses.)

Either way, you're trying to abstract ideas into something you can measure on a graph ... can be tricky.

I mean, yes, to me it seems rather "common sense" that AOC is "to the left" of Joe Manchin ... the problem comes when you are making more granular comparisons.

It worked better in the 1700s, when the radicals in the French National Assembly sat together on the left side of the room, and the monarchists sat on the right.

I've always favored the plane. Traditional economic/social left-right on the X axis, central vs local authority on the Y.

Even that's reductionistic. One guy proposes a window, which is a plane within a plane that moves as public perception of left vs right evolves. Every so often there's a sea change, such as with income tax, once so radical as to be considered un-American. That moves the window, in fact it might even bend it. Maybe it should be an irregular polygon.

Right now, the actual size of the window seems to be a matter of perception. Most thinkers associate it with the range of proposed legislation that is actually considered negotiable. My window's bigger than that, but Glenn's is much smaller. It's more of a porthole.

[ProfX]

Ah yes. The Overton Window. If only Glenn Beck didn't turn an interesting concept into an awful conspiracy novel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

The original idea is basically pretty sound. That there is a discursive range for acceptable policy by the public and this "window/range" moves. BTW, nobody is in charge of this; it's just various social forces nudging it in one direction or another.

Of course, in Beck's novel, there seem to be sinister ... powers ... apparently evilly manipulating and moving this "window" for some ... agenda ...

The income tax. Ya know, it's interesting, there are still people in 2022 who claim the 16th Amendment was un-Constitutional and/or never properly ratified into the Constitution. Many of these folks seem to think the Federal Reserve is controlled by the Rothschilds & a lot of them seem to still be sporting around their Ron Paul Love Bomb stickers, but still.

Political terminology is socially dependent. That's another problem. What we consider "liberals" in the U.S. are not what would be called "liberals" in much of Europe. You'll run into Liberal Parties in places like Scandinavia, and find they are basically what we might call (Right-) Libertarians in the U.S.

Does it mean the same thing to be called "liberal" or "progressive"? Dunno - all I can say is if you were to do some semantic mapping, you would find for most people in the U.S., these terms are interchangeable. That's my view. Which is not getting into the thorny problem of people who refuse to be called both.

P.S. personally, I have never described myself as a "moderate". "Pragmatic progressive" will do.

[Libertas]

Bogus comparison, Mister Apples Oranges.

"The extreme right" as it exists in today's Republican Party is the same extreme right that implemented atrocities like criminalizing homosexuality, forced childbirth for rape victims, segregation, boarding schools, and immigration from western Europe, only.

You guys are the same people today that you were a generation ago and earlier, when you were Reaganoids, Nixionites, Dixiecrats, Eisenhower, and Hooverville Republicans. And Lincoln was an Indian killer.

You even wave the same slavery flag and rationalize attacks on this country's capitol.

What you are calling the extreme left is center left. The actual "extreme left" is people who have never held power here, such as socialists, communist totalitarian governments like Cuba, the PRC, North Korea and the old USSR; Maoists like Shining Path, etc.

The extreme left to folks like that is anyone who thinks rich people should pay taxes and those tax dollars should be used to feed and shelter people REGARDLESS of the color of their skin.

[marindem01]

Off topic but I was actually complimenting Pelosi for her knowledge and intelligence as well political acumen

Very much on topic, you just didn't like the response. Pelsoi, unlike McCarthy can and does keep her caucus in line.

You made a statement without backing it up. Post facts, not half-assed opinions.

[marindem01]

I do not think I need to be told by Traitor Supporting and Defending Republican, who should and or should be our next leader the House.

McCarthy sucks up the Traitor. Lindsey Graham calls the Traitor the future of the so-called Republican Party. No thank you, I will make my own choices.

I'm the first to say Pelosi should stepped down after losing the majority inf '08 and '12. I also paid the price with my own committee. Dissention was not welcomed. I took heat for never in my life supporting HRC in '16.

Such dissention in what used to called the Republican Party is NOT allowed. In the so-called Republican Party, you either defend and support and condone the Traitor and his actions and words or you are OUT!!!

The Cult of the Traitor requires Seig Heil Lock Step. Not so in the Democratic Party. We are allowed and we are encouraged to dissent. Now on the other hand, to much dissent is not acceptable. I learned that the hard way.

I have stood toe-tp-toe with members with members with the San Francisco D-CCC and called vile and disgusting names for not endorsing Pelosi or Feinstein. IF a Republican does not support, defend and condone the Traitor they are done for.

I suppose now is time to announce my retirement from the DCCM. I've been a politically Active Democrat since 1995. A voting of the DCCM and a Delegate to CADEM since 2008. I want new blood in party, I'm supporting a very smart and very determined Muslim Woman to take my seat on the DCCM. She would do a great job.

The single biggest difference between the Democratic Party and Cult of the Traitor is Democrats welcome and encourage people who want change and will work for it. The Cult of the Traitor demands single loyalty to the Traitor, if you are not loyal to the Traitor you are NOT welcome.

I will never some Traitor Supporting Ditto Head telling ME who I need as a leader in my party.

Our very Democracy is at stake and this shit should not be happening. Democrats know who we want to lead us, the Cult decides who leads and if you are NOT a follower you are out.

[marindem01]

Duplicate.

[marindem01]

“Political Opinion is based on fact.”

So joe prefers to be an uninformed voter. I'm not surprised. I form my opinions, political and otherwise based facts. Yes, a person is entitled their own opinion, but they are NOT entitled to their facts. IF you do not have facts or use facts to support your opinion then you a fool.

As we have seen on this forum, Cons come in with many uninformed opinions and tried pass opinion as fact and have been shot down. There may be alternative opinions, there are not alternative facts.

But joe is proud being uninformed...I for one am not at all surprised.

[JoeMemphis]

So joe prefers to be an uninformed voter. I'm not surprised. I form my opinions, political and otherwise based facts. Yes, a person is entitled their own opinion, but they are NOT entitled to their facts. IF you do not have facts or use facts to support your opinion then you a fool.

As we have seen on this forum, Cons come in with many uninformed opinions and tried pass opinion as fact and have been shot down. There may be alternative opinions, there are not alternative facts.

But joe is proud being uninformed...I for one am not at all surprised.

Is that a fact or an opinion? I know the difference. Do you?

[gounion]

Is that a fact or an opinion? I know the difference. Do you?

You have never been able to distinguish fact from opinion.

[marindem01]

Is that a fact or an opinion? I know the difference. Do you?

No, I'm to your post. You do not have an opinion based fact. Ain't play your word games joe

[carmenjonze]

Is that a fact or an opinion? I know the difference. Do you?

You never — NEVER — back up any of your opinions. Never; not ever.

Why, it’s as if you think everything that comes tumbling out of your mouth is a fact.

[marindem01]

You never — NEVER — back up any of your opinions. Never; not ever.

Why, it’s as if you think everything that comes tumbling out of your mouth is a fact.

A common Conservative Delusion.

[JoeMemphis]

No, I'm to your post. You do not have an opinion based fact. Ain't play your word games joe

I don’t think I claimed my opinions were fact. Opinions are like that. Opinions are judgements. Sometimes they are based on facts. Sometimes they aren’t. The danger comes when you “think” because you have some of the facts that makes your opinion a fact or the truth. It doesn’t.

But you believe whatever you choose. Makes no difference to me either way.

[gounion]

I don’t think I claimed my opinions were fact. Opinions are like that. Opinions are judgements. Sometimes they are based on facts. Sometimes they aren’t. The danger comes when you “think” because you have some of the facts that makes your opinion a fact. It doesn’t.

But you believe whatever you choose. Makes no difference to me either way.

Guys like you make up facts. Like you made up "facts" regarding my retirement.

You lied. Period.

So you really don't have a leg to stand on here.

[carmenjonze]

The danger comes when you “think” because you have some of the facts that makes your opinion a fact or the truth. It doesn’t.

Get a mirror and say this to it 1000x.

[Libertas]

Guys like you make up facts. Like you made up "facts" regarding my retirement.

You lied. Period.

So you really don't have a leg to stand on here.

They have to, like my challenge before, when left and right disagree the right is never right.

They never take me up on this challenge because they know I am telling the truth. So they make shit up, all the time.