Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

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gounion
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:01 pm You proposed taxing people based upon the utilization of resources. My point is simply that these safety net programs/entitlement programs are for the benefit of us all. So every taxpayer and employer pays their “fair share”. If you want more, you should be willing to pay more. If you are not then I question your commitment.

Explain what you mean by extortion.
"Nice town you have here. It'd be a shame if something happened to it!"

Remember that from the gangster era? That's what happens to towns and states that will be devastated when factories leave, factories the town was built around.

It sure as hell happened a lot in the NFL. The owner comes to the city or state demanding a huge new multi-billion-dollar stadium. If the people vote it down, they find a city or state that WILL build it for them, and they leave.

Same thing with plants. Some years ago, Boeing went to several states for a plant. They went to all of them, and they all made huge bids for that plant. South Carolina won.

That's nothing but extortion. And, if South Carolina don't KEEP paying, more and more, they'll find another state that'll pay even more. And the politicians that voted yes get LOTS and LOTS of campaign cash, and then seats on the Board of Directors when they leave office. Defense companies are full of generals that sent all the money their way.

I'm sorry, that's NOT business. It's graft and extortion.
JoeMemphis

Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:12 pm "Nice town you have here. It'd be a shame if something happened to it!"

Remember that from the gangster era? That's what happens to towns and states that will be devastated when factories leave, factories the town was built around.

It sure as hell happened a lot in the NFL. The owner comes to the city or state demanding a huge new multi-billion-dollar stadium. If the people vote it down, they find a city or state that WILL build it for them, and they leave.

Same thing with plants. Some years ago, Boeing went to several states for a plant. They went to all of them, and they all made huge bids for that plant. South Carolina won.

That's nothing but extortion. And, if South Carolina don't KEEP paying, more and more, they'll find another state that'll pay even more. And the politicians that voted yes get LOTS and LOTS of campaign cash, and then seats on the Board of Directors when they leave office. Defense companies are full of generals that sent all the money their way.

I'm sorry, that's NOT business. It's graft and extortion.
So if the union goes to the employer and says “Nice business you have here. It’d be a shame if something happened to it.” I guess that would be extortion as well?
gounion
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:23 pm So if the union goes to the employer and says “Nice business you have here. It’d be a shame if something happened to it.” I guess that would be extortion as well?
Let's be clear: I am COMPLETELY AGAINST racketeering, and the way organized crime infiltrated some unions at one time. I am not for any violence or breaking of the law. Yes, what a few unions did at one time IS extortion.

But unions today NEGOTIATE. And a company has a right to do a lockout, and a union has a right to strike. These are not extortion, neither morally or lawfully.

Unions should operate lawfully at all times. They are certainly far more lawful than damned near any corporation in America today.
gounion
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

gounion wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:34 pm Nice way to try to attempt to deflect from what corporations are doing. We know you don't have the stones to actually respond and admit to what is going on. But unlike you, I have no problem responding to what YOU say.

Let's be clear: I am COMPLETELY AGAINST racketeering, and the way organized crime infiltrated some unions at one time. I am not for any violence or breaking of the law. Yes, what a few unions did at one time IS extortion.

But unions today NEGOTIATE. And a company has a right to do a lockout, and a union has a right to strike. These are not extortion, neither morally or lawfully.

Unions should operate lawfully at all times. They are certainly far more lawful than damned near any corporation in America today.
JoeMemphis

Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:34 pm Let's be clear: I am COMPLETELY AGAINST racketeering, and the way organized crime infiltrated some unions at one time. I am not for any violence or breaking of the law. Yes, what a few unions did at one time IS extortion.

But unions today NEGOTIATE. And a company has a right to do a lockout, and a union has a right to strike. These are not extortion, neither morally or lawfully.

Unions should operate lawfully at all times. They are certainly far more lawful than damned near any corporation in America today.
I’m not suggesting that you condone illegality. But everybody has a right to negotiate legally. Getting a better deal and improving your situation legally and in the open isn’t extortion.
gounion
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:28 pm I’m not suggesting that you condone illegality. But everybody has a right to negotiate legally. Getting a better deal and improving your situation legally and in the open isn’t extortion.
What these corporations do IS extortion. Rotten try at a false equivalency. A union negotiating with a company isn't a corporation demanding billions or they'll leave.

It isn't negotiation when it's the taxpayer they are demanding money from or they're leaving. They destroy communities when they do so. They pay off the politicians to vote to give them more money.

It destroys the small businesses that provide those tax dollars, too. Giving tax money to place like Walmart which will destroy the ability of the small business to make a profit.

Giving tax money and free land and free buildings and all those is not fair to the businesses who don't get such taxpayer largess.

And BTW, these deals are often NOT done in the open. The terms are usually hidden from the public.

The government shouldn't have it's hand on the scale of free market capitalism. But then, you guys aren't really free marketers, are you?
JoeMemphis

Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:39 pm What these corporations do IS extortion. Rotten try at a false equivalency. A union negotiating with a company isn't a corporation demanding billions or they'll leave.

It isn't negotiation when it's the taxpayer they are demanding money from or they're leaving. They destroy communities when they do so. They pay off the politicians to vote to give them more money.

It destroys the small businesses that provide those tax dollars, too. Giving tax money to place like Walmart which will destroy the ability of the small business to make a profit.

Giving tax money and free land and free buildings and all those is not fair to the businesses who don't get such taxpayer largess.

And BTW, these deals are often NOT done in the open. The terms are usually hidden from the public.

The government shouldn't have it's hand on the scale of free market capitalism. But then, you guys aren't really free marketers, are you?
Your view of extortion and the law’s view of extortion are two very different views. Personally, I don’t have an issue with a local community offering incentives to draw industry to the community. We’ve had that discussion before and my view hasn’t changed. I expect local leaders to look for and pursue such opportunities. If another community wants to draw or retain that business, then they can pitch their community. I don’t see anything wrong with the process provided it’s done in the open.
gounion
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:18 pm Your view of extortion and the law’s view of extortion are two very different views. Personally, I don’t have an issue with a local community offering incentives to draw industry to the community. We’ve had that discussion before and my view hasn’t changed. I expect local leaders to look for and pursue such opportunities. If another community wants to draw or retain that business, then they can pitch their community. I don’t see anything wrong with the process provided it’s done in the open.
Just because slavery is legal, does that make it right?

It USED to be illegal for business to deal in bribery and extortion. It was also illegal for business to give money to politicians.

Making it legal doesn't make it right.

But yes, since slavery and child labor is legal here, our corporations use them in other countries. I'm sure you're proud.

And the process is NOT in the open. They HIDE the deals they make.

So much for that.
JoeMemphis

Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:21 pm Just because slavery is legal, does that make it right?

It USED to be illegal for business to deal in bribery and extortion. It was also illegal for business to give money to politicians.

Making it legal doesn't make it right.

But yes, since slavery and child labor is legal here, our corporations use them in other countries. I'm sure you're proud.

And the process is NOT in the open. They HIDE the deals they make.

So much for that.
But we are not talking about slavery. So much for that.
gounion
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:24 pm But we are not talking about slavery. So much for that.
Evasion again. If it's legal, is it right? Yes or no?
JoeMemphis

Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by JoeMemphis »

gounion wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:32 pm Evasion again. If it's legal, is it right? Yes or no?
Sometimes. I guess it depends on what it is. In this case, local governments offering incentives to attract industry to the community is both legal and right in my opinion.
gounion
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

JoeMemphis wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:44 pm Sometimes. I guess it depends on what it is. In this case, local governments offering incentives to attract industry to the community is both legal and right in my opinion.
Corporate welfare. Extortion. Corruption.
Bludogdem
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:40 pm Here's the thing: Put Mitt Romney up against me. Of the two of us, even if he only paid a 10th of a percent, he'd STILL pay over 99% of the taxes paid between the two of us.

BTW, the threshold to be in the top 10% is $151,000. So I was in the top 10%.
And still paying an effective federal income tax rate under 20%.
gounion
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:53 pm And still paying an effective federal income tax rate under 20%.
Yeah now that he knows he wants to be in politics, so he doesn’t play the games when he knows he’s got to show his taxes. Back when he ran for President, he had to re-file to show a higher rate.
Bludogdem
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by Bludogdem »

bird wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:43 pm Again with this bullshit crap.

EVERYBODY that gets wages pays taxes. it is taken out as you are paid. That low income people get money back is irrelevant to the spending needs at the time of pay. In addition sales taxes and FICA hits them harder than wealth. Wealth also utilizes the power of one dollar, one vote to impact the tax system to their benefit.

Eliminate every single deduction and institute progressive brackets. Uncap FICA. Eliminate carried interest. Income is income. I don't give a shit if every hedge fund manager runs away. If they want to own things in this country then they have to pay for the system that supports their efforts.

And to answer the OP's question: I will be guided by Jefferson and Andrew Carnegie. Look it up.

(p.s. Glenn, I am self-employed as well. Why should any cost of doing business be deductible? I will take advantage of it because I can which is unrelated to whether or not it should be permitted.)
Low income get their fica taxes and some back through the Earned Income Tax Credit.
Bludogdem
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:56 pm Yeah now that he knows he wants to be in politics, so he doesn’t play the games when he knows he’s got to show his taxes. Back when he ran for President, he had to re-file to show a higher rate.
I’m saying that at $151,000 you’re still paying an effective tax rate lower than 20%.
gounion
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:58 pm I’m saying that at $151,000 you’re still paying an effective tax rate lower than 20%.
But that isn’t rich. You’re playing games. I’m in Vegas right how and I see you palming that card.
Bludogdem
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:34 pm But that isn’t rich. You’re playing games. I’m in Vegas right how and I see you palming that card.
You constantly complain they should at least pay the rate you do. If they did tax revenues would go down.

BTW Musk exercised another 2.15 million shares yesterday. And sold 934,091. That’s 43%. About 1% more than the federal income tax bill he owes. Good bet that money is going to the feds. Elon is paying his taxes. At a substantially higher effective rate than you or I pay.
gounion
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:52 pm You constantly complain they should at least pay the rate you do. If they did tax revenues would go down.

BTW Musk exercised another 2.15 million shares yesterday. And sold 934,091. That’s 43%. About 1% more than the federal income tax bill he owes. Good bet that money is going to the feds. Elon is paying his taxes. At a substantially higher effective rate than you or I pay.
Looks like you’re arguing for tax relief for the rich.

The people making on to three hundred grand a year in wages usually pay the highest percentage of their income in taxes. They are the most heavily taxed.

I have no problem with my taxes, I just think the rich should pay their fare share. Which would be AT least what the middle class pays.
Bludogdem
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:16 pm Looks like you’re arguing for tax relief for the rich.

The people making on to three hundred grand a year in wages usually pay the highest percentage of their income in taxes. They are the most heavily taxed.

I have no problem with my taxes, I just think the rich should pay their fare share. Which would be AT least what the middle class pays.
That’s a stupid assumption on your part, not unusual.

I’ve stated above I hope he sells more and pays those 43% percent taxes.

You have no idea what the middle class pays.

“ The IRS 2018 data shows that filers with AGI under $30,000 had an average income tax rate that was negative, thanks to the refundable credits. As filers’ income increases, the average tax generally increases. Those in a range from below to just above the income of the middle-class, with AGIs in from $50,000 to $200,000, paid an average income tax rate of 9.3 percent.[10] The top one percent (incomes above $540,009) paid an average income tax rate of nearly 27 percent.”

Look at table 3 and the graph above. I doubt you understand it but at least try.

https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page ... come-taxes

If the rich paid middle class rates we’d be a third world country.
gounion
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:33 pm That’s a stupid assumption on your part, not unusual.

I’ve stated above I hope he sells more and pays those 43% percent taxes.

You have no idea what the middle class pays.

“ The IRS 2018 data shows that filers with AGI under $30,000 had an average income tax rate that was negative, thanks to the refundable credits. As filers’ income increases, the average tax generally increases. Those in a range from below to just above the income of the middle-class, with AGIs in from $50,000 to $200,000, paid an average income tax rate of 9.3 percent.[10] The top one percent (incomes above $540,009) paid an average income tax rate of nearly 27 percent.”

Look at table 3 and the graph above. I doubt you understand it but at least try.

https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page ... come-taxes

If the rich paid middle class rates we’d be a third world country.
Lots of rich people pay nothing. Donald Trump said he paid nothing, and it make him smart. Mitt Romney was paying as little as 13%.

Now you think that's great. You think the rich should pay lower rates on investments than working people pay on wages. That's indefensible.

You deal in bullshit, I deal in facts.
Bludogdem
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:56 pm Lots of rich people pay nothing. Donald Trump said he paid nothing, and it make him smart. Mitt Romney was paying as little as 13%.

Now you think that's great. You think the rich should pay lower rates on investments than working people pay on wages. That's indefensible.

You deal in bullshit, I deal in facts.
Musk probably paid nothing from 2012. He’s about to pay $12-$14 billion. Averages out to about $1.2-$1.4 billion a year. The bill eventually comes due.

Real estate investors defer taxes. Eventually the bill comes due.
And mitt paid 21% for three years.


And obviously I don’t think the rich should pay lower taxes. Capital Gains should be 28%, carried interest should taxed as ordinary income, there should be no step up basis on estates.

And yo had no idea what the charts and tables show as to how low middle class effective tax rates are.

You deal in stupidity when it comes to federal taxes.
gounion
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:08 pm Musk probably paid nothing from 2012. He’s about to pay $12-$14 billion. Averages out to about $1.2-$1.4 billion a year. The bill eventually comes due.

Real estate investors defer taxes. Eventually the bill comes due.
And mitt paid 21% for three years.
Yeah, Mitt wanted to get back into politics, so he stopped taking the lower taxes he could get. It was nothing about paying later. You're just making that shit up.
And obviously I don’t think the rich should pay lower taxes. Capital Gains should be 28%, carried interest should taxed as ordinary income, there should be no step up basis on estates.

And yo had no idea what the charts and tables show as to how low middle class effective tax rates are.

You deal in stupidity when it comes to federal taxes.
No reason investors should pay lower taxes than wage earners. You explain why work is the heaviest taxed of all.

Reality check:
For far too long, our economy has rewarded wealth instead of work—catering to the richest Americans and biggest corporations at the expense of ordinary people. At the center of that system is a tax code that allows the wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. And while we have long known that billionaires don’t pay enough in taxes, the lack of transparency in our tax system means that much less is known about the income tax rate that they do pay.

Today, we’re releasing a new analysis that draws on a range of publicly available data to shed light on this question. The analysis from OMB and CEA economists estimates that the wealthiest 400 billionaire families in America paid an average of just 8.2 percent of their income—including income from their wealth that goes largely untaxed—in Federal individual income taxes between 2010 and 2018. That’s a lower rate than many ordinary Americans pay.

This disparity is driven largely by the way our tax code treats income generated from wealth—that is, income from assets like stocks that increase in value over time. When a middle class American earns a dollar of wages, that dollar is taxed immediately. But when a billionaire makes a dollar because their stocks increase in value, that dollar is taxed at a preferred rate—if it’s ever taxed at all. If a wealthy investor never sells an asset that has increased in value, those investment gains are entirely ignored for income tax purposes when the assets are passed on to an heir, thanks to stepped-up basis. And while untaxed capital gains income is dramatically smaller than wage income for most families—for example, about half of all Americans don’t own any stock, including in retirement accounts—it looms large for the wealthiest 400 families, who according to the Forbes 400 had at least $2.1 billion in wealth in 2018, the final year of this analysis. Analyses that ignore this type of income from wealth for billionaires will necessarily overstate their real income tax rates.
Bludogdem
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:23 pm Yeah, Mitt wanted to get back into politics, so he stopped taking the lower taxes he could get. It was nothing about paying later. You're just making that shit up.
No reason investors should pay lower taxes than wage earners. You explain why work is the heaviest taxed of all.

Reality check:
They don’t pay lower taxes. Obviously you don’t understand the effective tax rate charts that are in the link.
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