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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:29 am 
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How the NY Times & U.S. Government Worked Together to Suppress James Risen’s Post-9/11 Reporting
https://www.democracynow.org/2018/1/5/h ... government


But is there a permanent collusion of interests between the media and government? Even Risen himself seems to think no.

From that story: (Risen says:)
On the other hand, at The New York Times, I think the fight over the NSA story really helped usher in a change in the way that they deal with the government. The paper is now much more aggressive on national security reporting and much less willing than ever—than it was before the NSA story, to agree to hold or kill stories at the government’s request. You know, they require a much higher bar. You know, they still negotiate on stories, when the government wants to negotiate, but I think they’re much more willing to say no to the government today. And I think, you know, the experience on the NSA story had—was a big factor in changing that, the way they think about that.

[snip][end]

You may have heard of this movie called the Post, where the Washington Post published the Pentagon Papers, even though the government might have sent most of the newspaper executives to prison? That also happened.

Don't get me wrong. I am a big fan of FAIR and they do point out the media often do act as "stenographers to power". They fail to be critical at critical moments because they worry about losing access. They are more likely to interview people at big Washington think tanks than ordinary activists. That's because they have the think tanks in their Roledex. There are real problems. But I think they come out of systemic issues, not phantom menaces.

There Is No American 'Deep State'
Experts on Turkish politics say the use of that term misunderstands what it means in Turkey—and the ways that such allegations can be used to enable political repression.
https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... te/517221/

“Be careful playing with the deep-state idea, because it can so easily get out of control that it becomes a monster that helps whoever’s in charge curb freedom and intimidate dissidents, because it’s such a nebulous concept,” said Soner Cagaptay, who directs the Turkish Research Program at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. “You don't have to prove that it exists. Once [the notion is] out there, and the public starts to believe it, anybody can be attached to it.”

[snip][end]

Excellent point.

Trump and Erdogan are certainly using it that way.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:22 am 
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There Is No American 'Deep State'
Experts on Turkish politics say the use of that term misunderstands what it means in Turkey—and the ways that such allegations can be used to enable political repression.
https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... te/517221/

.


Quote:
Trump has not yet used the phrase, but it seems like only a matter of time before it pops up in some late-night or early-morning tweet.


Like clockwork, it has indeed happened. :problem:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:57 am 
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But is there a permanent collusion of interests between the media and government? Even Risen himself seems to think no.

From that story: (Risen says:)
On the other hand, at The New York Times, I think the fight over the NSA story really helped usher in a change in the way that they deal with the government. The paper is now much more aggressive on national security reporting and much less willing than ever—than it was before the NSA story, to agree to hold or kill stories at the government’s request. You know, they require a much higher bar. You know, they still negotiate on stories, when the government wants to negotiate, but I think they’re much more willing to say no to the government today. And I think, you know, the experience on the NSA story had—was a big factor in changing that, the way they think about that.

[snip][end]

You may have heard of this movie called the Post, where the Washington Post published the Pentagon Papers, even though the government might have sent most of the newspaper executives to prison? That also happened.

Don't get me wrong. I am a big fan of FAIR and they do point out the media often do act as "stenographers to power". They fail to be critical at critical moments because they worry about losing access. They are more likely to interview people at big Washington think tanks than ordinary activists. That's because they have the think tanks in their Roledex. There are real problems. But I think they come out of systemic issues, not phantom menaces.

There Is No American 'Deep State'
Experts on Turkish politics say the use of that term misunderstands what it means in Turkey—and the ways that such allegations can be used to enable political repression.
https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... te/517221/

“Be careful playing with the deep-state idea, because it can so easily get out of control that it becomes a monster that helps whoever’s in charge curb freedom and intimidate dissidents, because it’s such a nebulous concept,” said Soner Cagaptay, who directs the Turkish Research Program at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. “You don't have to prove that it exists. Once [the notion is] out there, and the public starts to believe it, anybody can be attached to it.”

[snip][end]

Excellent point.

Trump and Erdogan are certainly using it that way.


I don't care for the deep-state conspiracy theory. And it's growing.

I didn't mention it in my post Kucinich thread but I came across it while preparing that post.

Kucinich: "Deep State" Trying To Take Down Trump, "Our Country Is Under Attack Within"

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... ithin.html

They have a video of him saying it. :|

Quote:
In an interview with Sean Hannity, former Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) said the "deep state" within the bureaucracy is trying to destroy Donald Trump's presidency.

"The political process of the United States of America being under attack by intelligence agencies and individuals in those agencies."

"You have politicization of agencies that is resulting in leaks from anonymous, unknown people and the intention is to take down a president," former Rep. Kucinich said. "Now, this is very dangerous to America. It's a threat to our republic, it constitutes a clear and present danger to our way of life. So we have to be asking, what is the motive of these people? Who's putting these leaks out? Why doesn't somebody come forward and make a charge and put their name and reputation behind it, instead of attacking through the media and not substantiating their position?"

"Our first allegiance is to our country. This isn't about one president, this is about the political process of the United States of America being under attack by intelligence agencies and individuals in those agencies, yes, as you said there might be good people in there, but there are certain individuals who are lifers who want to be able to direct the policy of the country. And if the president stands in their way whether it's a Democrat or Republican they'll just try to run that person out."


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:16 pm 
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People, people.

Deep state, that is a term of obfuscation. It stirs emotion while saying nothing. There are indeed people wielding as much access and influence as possible for their gain, sometimes for the benefit of the masses, but mostly for their gain. Do they control everything? No. Are there massive nefarious plots cooked up in back alleys with information passed via dead drops and messages on internet chat rooms? No. Are there conversations in board rooms and in social clubs about how to gain advantage, usually monetary, via the distorted electoral process we have? You can bet your ass.

As for Assange, he has been bent. As for Alex Jones, he is a loon. As for Russia, their actions are real and unsurprising. As for Zuckererg, well, I have made my opinion known about him. He is a useless piece of crap.

Do not engage in ceaseless searches for paranoid conspiracy theories. Follow the money. Follow the attempts to regain lost political glory as in the case of Russia. Always, always, who benefits? How? Why? things are usually much simpler. RW money works openly, relatively speaking.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:20 pm 
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People, people.

Deep state, that is a term of obfuscation. It stirs emotion while saying nothing. There are indeed people wielding as much access and influence as possible for their gain, sometimes for the benefit of the masses, but mostly for their gain. Do they control everything? No. Are there massive nefarious plots cooked up in back alleys with information passed via dead drops and messages on internet chat rooms? No. Are there conversations in board rooms and in social clubs about how to gain advantage, usually monetary, via the distorted electoral process we have? You can bet your ass.

As for Assange, he has been bent. As for Alex Jones, he is a loon. As for Russia, their actions are real and unsurprising. As for Zuckererg, well, I have made my opinion known about him. He is a useless piece of crap.

Do not engage in ceaseless searches for paranoid conspiracy theories. Follow the money. Follow the attempts to regain lost political glory as in the case of Russia. Always, always, who benefits? How? Why? things are usually much simpler. RW money works openly, relatively speaking.


Who's that you're talking to Bird?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Who's that you're talking to Bird?
Just in general, Sam. Too much energy is wasted on conspiracy theories by people who buy into the likes of Alex Jones. The real stuff like Russia is actually found. If anything is done that is something else as we see from the unwillingness of Trump to impose the congressionally approved sanctions. Beyond that capital always, ALWAYS, colludes against labor. It isn’t specifically class as opposed to maximization of money via distortion of the political process.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:26 pm 
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Oooooo-eeeeeee-ooooooooooooo.

The Deep State is nebulous and good mostly as this year's buzzword. It sounds like Deep Throat so it's cute enough to stick, but it doesn't describe anything there aren't better names for.

The only responsibility of the media is to show a profit for the shareholders of the parent corporations. That's it. Drumpf tested off the scale on the usual metrics they use to see who's watching, which do not have truth or fairness in them. So we saw 265 or however many times it was more air time for drumpf than Hillary. And when we did see Hillary, it was usually about the goddamn e-mail or her pneumonia. Meanwhile they're breaking into the Nooz at all hours of the day and night to cover drumpf speeches live.

Dunno about Bernie. It would be just like them to give him even less time than Hillary, since he's likely perceived as bad for business if he wins.

Absent a return to the Fairness Doctrine and Equal Time in election campaigns, the only solution for the media is to jam their satellite uplinks, and that's illegal.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:06 pm 
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I said we need to understand it, and accept it. I used the word as a warning. I said before, what the Deep State is.

You only have watch the 5 Filters of the Media to understand. The media, as they did with Risen, use self-censorship. Their is no secret organization. It is institutions steeped in a mindset. There is no boss, but they work together and benefit from each other.

Why am I going to such lengths about the media? Because without light democracy dies.

If I remember Orwell's 1984 correctly, (was long ago when I read it) Winston Smith finally loved Big Brother and dies.

For whatever reason the media forgets its responsibility to protect democracy, and puts anything else above that duty, by hiding or obscuring information, especially covering up for the government, the media has to be called out.

That's were I stand.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:47 pm 
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msr. kucinich wrote:
"You have politicization of agencies that is resulting in leaks from anonymous, unknown people and the intention is to take down a president," former Rep. Kucinich said. "Now, this is very dangerous to America. It's a threat to our republic, it constitutes a clear and present danger to our way of life. So we have to be asking, what is the motive of these people? Who's putting these leaks out? Why doesn't somebody come forward and make a charge and put their name and reputation behind it, instead of attacking through the media and not substantiating their position?"

"Our first allegiance is to our country. This isn't about one president, this is about the political process of the United States of America being under attack by intelligence agencies and individuals in those agencies, yes, as you said there might be good people in there, but there are certain individuals who are lifers who want to be able to direct the policy of the country. And if the president stands in their way whether it's a Democrat or Republican they'll just try to run that person out."


Yes, Dennis, but there is something far more dangerous to America. An authoritarian president who attacks the Constitution, our rules and norms, and the rule of law. Who BTW is clearly putting his business interests and his family's business interests above the country. See, I see things differently. I don't call people who oppose a tyrant (even if through leaks) the "deep state". I call them heroes and patriots. It may be good not all of them can be fired by that tyrant.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:51 pm 
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For whatever reason the media forgets its responsibility to protect democracy, and puts anything else above that duty, by hiding or obscuring information, especially covering up for the government, the media has to be called out.

That's were I stand.


Yes, absolutely, and there is no such fucking thing as "The Deep State". At least not as the Trumpists, or Kucinich, or Bannon, seem to believe in.

That's where *I* stand.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:33 pm 
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I said we need to understand it, and accept it. I used the word as a warning. I said before, what the Deep State is.

You only have watch the 5 Filters of the Media to understand. The media, as they did with Risen, use self-censorship. Their is no secret organization. It is institutions steeped in a mindset. There is no boss, but they work together and benefit from each other.

Why am I going to such lengths about the media? Because without light democracy dies.

If I remember Orwell's 1984 correctly, (was long ago when I read it) Winston Smith finally loved Big Brother and dies.

For whatever reason the media forgets its responsibility to protect democracy, and puts anything else above that duty, by hiding or obscuring information, especially covering up for the government, the media has to be called out.

That's were I stand.


Man, you voted for Jill Stein. Why should I take any political advice from somebody who actively throws away your vote and instead clings to whackodoodle conspiracy theories like "deep state"?

Are you also a 9/11 troother? How about the flat earth?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:43 pm 
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You only have watch the 5 Filters of the Media to understand.


I saw this thing when it first came out.

Why must I believe anything coming out of Qatari state television?

Are you aware of what they do to gay people in Qatar?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Qatar

Anyway, if you were to listen to the video you're promoting, your "deep state" is filter no. 5. It doesn't take a whole lot of thought to come up with some nebulous, string-pulling malicious-acting scapegoat. Is this 2018 or 1918? or 1718?

:problem:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:11 pm 
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Yes, absolutely, and there is no such fucking thing as "The Deep State". At least not as the Trumpists, or Kucinich, or Bannon, seem to believe in.

That's where *I* stand.

If you remember, that's what I said.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:16 pm 
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The question is, the one in the thread title. How much is enough? I have no tolerance for it.

This is how "fake news" gets thrown around. Trump makes up alternative fakes and gets away with it when no news is trustworthy.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:21 pm 
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Oooooo-eeeeeee-ooooooooooooo.

The Deep State is nebulous and good mostly as this year's buzzword. It sounds like Deep Throat so it's cute enough to stick, but it doesn't describe anything there aren't better names for.

The only responsibility of the media is to show a profit for the shareholders of the parent corporations. That's it. Drumpf tested off the scale on the usual metrics they use to see who's watching, which do not have truth or fairness in them. So we saw 265 or however many times it was more air time for drumpf than Hillary. And when we did see Hillary, it was usually about the goddamn e-mail or her pneumonia. Meanwhile they're breaking into the Nooz at all hours of the day and night to cover drumpf speeches live.

Dunno about Bernie. It would be just like them to give him even less time than Hillary, since he's likely perceived as bad for business if he wins.

Absent a return to the Fairness Doctrine and Equal Time in election campaigns, the only solution for the media is to jam their satellite uplinks, and that's illegal.

And when CNN, and the others report things not true, they should explain how they made their mistake, instead of expecting us to forget it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:56 pm 
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And when CNN, and the others report things not true, they should explain how they made their mistake, instead of expecting us to forget it.


They generally do that Fox, and I expect you generally think it's a cover up because that explanation appears too simplistic to you and they don't admit to some skulduggery, so you set the simple rational explanation aside and say they haven't explained how they made their mistake.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:11 pm 
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One person looked at a 14 and didn't notice the 1, so they told a reporter a message they saw was sent on the 4th, instead of the 14th.

They told another person that same mistaken date. Reporter interviews other person. Now two people have told him a message was sent on the 4th.

Reporter is so excited by the implications of the message being sent on the 4th, he doesn't double check to notice it was really sent on the 14th.

Question: suppose that IS the explanation? Would you and Greenwald be satisfied?

If a person wants to believe Trump's bullshit about the media being fake news, that is entirely on them, as is believing any of the rest of Trump's bullshit. A gigantic brouhaha over people reading a date wrong is not going to convince me Trump isn't still cycling bullshit.

If they wanted to fool us into mistakenly believing a message was sent on the wrong date, they shouldn't have admitted their mistake and issued a correction so quickly.

Oh and one more thing:

https://www.thenation.com/article/noam- ... trump-era/

DB: What do you make of the conflict between the Trump administration and the US intelligence communities? Do you believe in the “deep state”?

NC: There is a national-security bureaucracy that has persisted since World War II. And national-security analysts, in and out of government, have been appalled by many of Trump’s wild forays. Their concerns are shared by the highly credible experts who set the Doomsday Clock, advanced to two and a half minutes to midnight as soon as Trump took office—the closest it has been to terminal disaster since 1953, when the US and USSR exploded thermonuclear weapons. But I see little sign that it goes beyond that, that there is any secret “deep state” conspiracy.

[snip][end]

Noam Chomsky also believes there is no such thing.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:35 pm 
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no doubt a conspiracy here but also a bad situation with the clerk. an attempt here to use big brother tactics to change election results, citing utility records and even at one point debit card purchases for groceries as proof of residence.


Karen Spranger files federal lawsuit against 'conspiracy' of Democrats and reporters

Quote:
Already battling county officials in local courts, Macomb County Clerk Karen Spranger has filed a fresh lawsuit, this time in federal court, charging three top Macomb officials with violating her constitutional rights in a conspiracy with the county's chief judge, the head of an AFSCME union local and two newsmen she said were biased against her.

Named as part of the conspiracy are reporter Jameson Cook at the Macomb Daily and evening news anchor Jason Colthorp at WDIV-TV.

In the self-filed lawsuit, Spranger said the group had led "a concentrated effort by Macomb County" to usurp her management powers, largely because she's a Republican and her predecessors for decades were Democrats.

The lawsuit seeks $100,000 in damages, plus court costs, as well as the cancellation of numerous orders issued by Macomb County judges. The court orders were imposed over the last six months as county officials, judges, union leaders and others increasingly went to court to object to Spranger's unorthodox oversight of about 80 employees who handle the county’s vital records, register of deeds, court records and other services. The lawsuit also demands back pay and reinstatement of temporary employees dismissed by the county after Spranger hired them outside of county and union procedures. ........


Macomb County can try to oust Clerk Karen Spranger from office over residency

Quote:
.......In her lawsuit, Spranger named the county, county commissioners, county Executive Mark Hackel, his office and the ethics board.

The county previously applied to the Attorney General's Office to have the state file the action, but it was denied because it involved a local official and issues of a local nature that were best resolved at the county level.

Kelly wrote in his opinion that the county was the only party listed on an application to the attorney general in this case and is the only party permitted to apply for leave to bring this action.

Hackel said "no one should be able to circumvent the law, specifically, election law. Did she live in there? We're confident based upon all the evidence we've been given she didn't live there. The potential outcome to have this question answered could end up in her being removed from office.".......


Lawsuit to remove Macomb County's Karen Spranger from office allowed to proceed

Macomb County Clerk Karen Spranger: I was poor, didn't lie about residence

Quote:
......... If you run for office in Michigan — according to the state constitution — thou shalt not lie about where you live.

That lie can get you booted from office. And it can put you behind bars as well, for committing perjury.

That’s the grievous sin Macomb County Clerk Karen Spranger has committed, top county officials charge. They say she couldn’t have lived in a dilapidated house she owns in Warren that had no water, gas or electric service when she filed to run for office in 2016.

This week, Spranger fired back. Fighting for her political life, Spranger answered the county’s charges with a legal brief that insists she did live at the ramshackle house, whether or not she had any utilities.

In a nutshell, the brief argues that Spranger was poor, she had no utilities and ... so what?........

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:06 pm 
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One person looked at a 14 and didn't notice the 1, so they told a reporter a message they saw was sent on the 4th, instead of the 14th.

They told another person that same mistaken date. Reporter interviews other person. Now two people have told him a message was sent on the 4th.

Reporter is so excited by the implications of the message being sent on the 4th, he doesn't double check to notice it was really sent on the 14th.

Question: suppose that IS the explanation? Would you and Greenwald be satisfied?

If a person wants to believe Trump's bullshit about the media being fake news, that is entirely on them, as is believing any of the rest of Trump's bullshit. A gigantic brouhaha over people reading a date wrong is not going to convince me Trump isn't still cycling bullshit.

If they wanted to fool us into mistakenly believing a message was sent on the wrong date, they shouldn't have admitted their mistake and issued a correction so quickly.

Oh and one more thing:

https://www.thenation.com/article/noam- ... trump-era/

DB: What do you make of the conflict between the Trump administration and the US intelligence communities? Do you believe in the “deep state”?

NC: There is a national-security bureaucracy that has persisted since World War II. And national-security analysts, in and out of government, have been appalled by many of Trump’s wild forays. Their concerns are shared by the highly credible experts who set the Doomsday Clock, advanced to two and a half minutes to midnight as soon as Trump took office—the closest it has been to terminal disaster since 1953, when the US and USSR exploded thermonuclear weapons. But I see little sign that it goes beyond that, that there is any secret “deep state” conspiracy.

[snip][end]

Noam Chomsky also believes there is no such thing.

I don't know if you are asking again if I believe in a deep state. The answer is no, so get off it.

But I don't let the NYT off the hook so easily. They didn't release the story until Risen was going to publish it himself in a book. They had no problem publishing the lies leading up to the Iraq war.

Simply, with egg on their face Greenwald only asked for the explanation. Lack of one speaks volumes about their hubris.

If you like to listen to Noam Chomsky, you should follow the link I posted above titled Manufactured Consent.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:11 pm 
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I read the book, and I saw the movie.

BTW, I've met Noam in person.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:13 pm 
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I read the book, and I saw the movie.

BTW, I've met Noam in person.

Very well then you understand my true position.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:32 pm 
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I know a lot of Noam's positions. In class, I usually talk about his work in linguistics. In academia, this is of course how most people know him.

Some I agree with - some I don't. If you've actually been following what I've been saying in this thread, I've pointed out some aspects of his (although he says it's really mostly Edward Herman's) propaganda model I agree with - and pointed out some of its flaws, too.... (P.S. my critiques aren't original).

He and Herman are not incorrect that the media often acts a propaganda agent for the state. It does. No denying. Problem is, their model usually hand-waves away when the media does the opposite (like the Washington Post printing the Pentagon Papers). They don't explain why that also happens.

I definitely agree with what he says about 9/11 truth.

https://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/noam-c ... w-physics/

During a lecture on “Policy and the Media Prism” at the University of Florida a few weeks ago, 9/11 truth activist Bob Tuskin said the mainstream media had covered up evidence that Building 7 imploded in a controlled demolition. Tuskin asked Chomsky if he was finally ready to “jump on board with” 9/11 conspiracy theories.

“You’re right that there’s a consensus among a miniscule number of architects and engineers,” Chomsky replied. “They are not doing what scientists and engineers do when they think they’ve discovered something.”

“What you do when you think you’ve discovered something is write articles in scientific journals, give talks at the professional societies, go to the civil engineering department at MIT or Florida or wherever you are, and present your results, then proceed to try to convince the national academies, the professional society of physicists and civil engineers, the departments of the major universities, convince them that you’ve discovered something.”

“There happen to be a lot of people around who spend an hour on the Internet and think they know a lot physics, but it doesn’t work like that. There’s a reason there are graduate schools in these departments,” he continued.

Chomsky dismissed the claim that scientists and engineers hadn’t followed typical procedures because they felt intimidated by the government. He said publishing an article in an academic journal was virtually risk-free compared to other forms of political activism.

“There is just overwhelming evidence that the Bush administration wasn’t involved,” Chomsky added. “Very elementary evidence. You don’t have to be a physicist to understand it. You just have to think for a minute.”

He noted that the Bush administration blamed the 9/11 attacks on Saudi hijackers. If the U.S. government had staged the attacks as a pretense to invade Iraq, they could have just as easily blamed Iraqi hijackers and avoided the need to “concoct wild stories about weapons of mass destruction” as their justification.


[snip][end]

That, incidentally, had some of his truther critics calling him a Mongolian idiot, and other weird things.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:17 pm 
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One more thing: I'll repeat - when Herman and Chomsky wrote Manufacturing Consent, the Internet was in its infancy, and most of social media didn't exist yet.

If you're going to keep focusing only on broadcast media or newspapers, as they did ... you're fighting the last war, not the current one. It's 2018.

Where is the lying and deceit happening?

Image

Facebook and Twitter are being used to manipulate public opinion – report
Nine-country study finds widespread use of social media for promoting lies, misinformation and propaganda by governments and individuals

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... ok-twitter

The Russians aren't the only people doing it - btw - and the U.S. people aren't the only victims.

If you're not going to talk about THAT lying & deceit, you absolutely are not seeing the big picture of NOW.

Governments are doing some of it - so are nongovernmental actors.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:15 pm 
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Facebook and twitter are being used to manipulate public opinion, and that's all there is to it.

The people seeking to do so use all means at their disposal. I keep coming back to the papers published by the Army War College about "winning CNN wars." I'm sure that now they spout thousands of pages of jargon about how to use the Internet as a force multiplier.

The people who seek to manipulate public opinion keep up with the times.

Nothing new here.

The hard part with the Nooz is separating stuff they do for the usual business reasons and stuff they do to keep power brokers happy and maintain access. This is not a Deep State. It's an old-boy (or girl) network, and there's no reason to call it anything else.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:04 pm 
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Facebook and twitter are being used to manipulate public opinion, and that's all there is to it.

The people seeking to do so use all means at their disposal. I keep coming back to the papers published by the Army War College about "winning CNN wars." I'm sure that now they spout thousands of pages of jargon about how to use the Internet as a force multiplier.

The people who seek to manipulate public opinion keep up with the times.

Nothing new here.

The hard part with the Nooz is separating stuff they do for the usual business reasons and stuff they do to keep power brokers happy and maintain access. This is not a Deep State. It's an old-boy (or girl) network, and there's no reason to call it anything else.

You can call it what ever you want. Some people have different definitions than others, and so on. George Carlin spoke on a more simple level, but broke the barriers for understanding. He said there is a club, and you're not in it.

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