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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:53 am 
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One more thing: I'll repeat - when Herman and Chomsky wrote Manufacturing Consent, the Internet was in its infancy, and most of social media didn't exist yet.

If you're going to keep focusing only on broadcast media or newspapers, as they did ... you're fighting the last war, not the current one. It's 2018.

Where is the lying and deceit happening?

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Facebook and Twitter are being used to manipulate public opinion – report
Nine-country study finds widespread use of social media for promoting lies, misinformation and propaganda by governments and individuals

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... ok-twitter

The Russians aren't the only people doing it - btw - and the U.S. people aren't the only victims.

If you're not going to talk about THAT lying & deceit, you absolutely are not seeing the big picture of NOW.

Governments are doing some of it - so are nongovernmental actors.

I'm just sitting here, thinking about what would be interesting to talk about. This topic about social media seems to be mostly directed about Facebook and I don't use Twitter, so I don't have much to say about it.

But Facebook needs it's own thread, because it is a website that is not intended to be a source of news from professional journalist. Also, I doubt people get a large percentage of their news from Facebook. I used it for awhile and it is a mess, and so I have stopped almost completely.

But HERE, I do have something about the internet in general. As I have already pointed out Google manipulates the news, but news websites I find appalling.

I can't tell legitimate news stories from advertisers. For instance, I just clicked on BBC news and they, similar to the others, have these advertisers that look like news stories that BBC receives money for and vice versa. On some sites they are disguised as news stories. I have seen it on probably all the news websites. Doesn't anybody else besides me find this disgusting. The news article itself I have no problem with, but there is definitely little oversight over what they allow advertisers to print.

I think this is a problem with reputable news website, not to mention Facebook. I have seen it in newspapers too.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:14 am 
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Is-ought problem.

I agree with you people shouldn't be getting their news from Facebook. But, unfortunately, they ARE getting their news from Facebook. Not thinking it should be so, doesn't mean it's so.

The weird thing is, see the Social Network. The whole original Mark Z. concept for Facebook was to be used as a college dating app and an alternative to the college yearbook. Kind of like Tinder. Look at the faces, swipe left or right if you like them.

So now, billions of people on the planet are using a college dating app for getting news. And political discussion. I actually don't think it was designed for either. Now, the Internet is a massive story of repurposing. TCP/IP was originally designed to help the military comm systems survive nuclear attack. HTLM and the WWW by CERN to put scientific documents online. BITNET to be used for academic discussions. It's all been repurposed. Thing is, Facebook has been repurposed, and unfortunately this is the case where it's not up to the new task, not in the least.

Ari Berman has been a real critic of Mark Zuckerberg on MSNBC, and I really like his criticism. Zuckerberg was in abject denial of how his dating app got exploited by the Russians to spread disinformation ... btw, not just in this country, more than a dozen others. They are not the only ones.

There's nothing wrong with being social, and Facebook exploits it. Have my friends "statuses" changed within the last 5 seconds?!??! I think its main use for me is being able to talk to relatives in Israel or other faraway places, my niece is going to Denmark now for five months, it sure as hell is a lot easier than making an international phone call. It has become a great tool for reconnecting to "lost" friends and relatives. Those are things it is good for.

But, again, back to my point, whether or not it should be used for getting news - it is. So Mark should give a shit about whether people are using his platform to spread "fake news," misinformation, and disinformation. He says it's a tech company, not a media company. Well, Mark, get in touch with how people are actually using your shit, not your head canon about how it should be used.

I also think it's useless for political discussion. I like being actually able to follow the flow of discussion in an argument. This is why I like message boards. On Facebook, political discussion is mostly a spiraling maze of friends and family yelling at each other on their own pages. It's just a big Thanksgiving dinner. I got spoiled by things like Usenet and BBSes.

I know, I'm becoming the minority, but so be it.

BTW, the problem of news being replaced by infomercials. I totally agree with you this is a problem all over the place. However, one place where it is occurring with reckless nastiness is on Sinclair Broadcasting, which is increasingly buying up local stations throughout the country (see: John Oliver segment). And what they are doing is replacing actual local news from local reporters with infomercials dictated by the network heads.

Thousands of local news viewers are being forced to listen to that Trumpist tool Boris Epshteyn, whether they like it or not.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:21 pm 
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What kind of INFORMATION does Facebook provide? I'm thinking it is only subliminal messages. Their little info-commercials are also detour signs to indecent places not fitting to find reliable information. Facebook is planning to remove them, from what I have read. We should be so grateful to them for giving up such rewarding financial schemes. I will wait to see their words come to fruition. I'm not holding my breath.

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Last edited by TheFox on Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:07 pm 
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What kind of INFORMATION does Facebook provide?


Depends on what you mean by "information".

What your friends are posting on their wall. (Is all of it true?)
What your friends are telling you about their "status" (if that's true, either).

I mean, that's what it was originally designed for. After being a college dating app, Mark Z. slightly twisted it into a "keep up with friends & family" app.

Of course, it's now used not just by people, but by government agencies, businesses, and various organizations, too.

Presumably also offering "information".

But here's the problem that seems to have happened in 2016. This is the key issue. That "Cydonians for Bernie Sanders" group/page on Facebook was not set up by real Bernie fans. It was set up by Russians, to spread disinformation and bullshit to Bernie fans. Not just about Hillary re Pizzagate etc., though mostly. It seems Russian trolls also set up fake "Black Lives Matters" pages on Facebook to actually spread divisive falsehoods and disinformation and undermine the real organization, while also using it as a vehicle to attack our democracy.

It might not have been a problem if people weren't increasingly a) getting their news from Facebook and b) believing it. But as I keep saying, the troll farms knew they were. Spooks are trained to find vulnerabilities, and utilize them. And Mark Z. left the barn door wide open for them.

P.S. Cambridge Analytica may have been giving them some help figuring out American data profiles ... see, Mueller investigation.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:46 pm 
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something to consider

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/autonomous

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomy

seems like an odd thing to call a car without a steering wheel or pedals

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:47 pm 
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something to consider

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/autonomous

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomy

seems like an odd thing to call a car without a steering wheel or pedals

Exactly why they call it autonomous.

What is your point?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:03 pm 
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Exactly why they call it autonomous.

What is your point?


you are losing control and freedom of operating your vehicle to an outside source. its opposite what autonomous means.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:44 pm 
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you are losing control and freedom of operating your vehicle to an outside source. its opposite what autonomous means.

You are not considered part of the car. The car doesn't lose its control to an outside force including the passengers.

You bring this up because of Russia interfering with our autonomy? Or our media interfering with our democracy?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:55 pm 
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TheFox wrote:
You are not considered part of the car. The car doesn't lose its control to an outside force including the passengers.

You bring this up because of Russia interfering with our autonomy? Or our media interfering with our democracy?


the car has no ability except what an outside source puts into it. I bring it up because the label gives a sense of autonomy where none exists, its a manipulation that disinforms and that does affect our democracy also affects our autonomy.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:59 pm 
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TheFox wrote:
You are not considered part of the car. The car doesn't lose its control to an outside force including the passengers.

You bring this up because of Russia interfering with our autonomy? Or our media interfering with our democracy?


A car is not considered a being, or a collective of beings.

I think they latched onto that word because it begins with auto.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:15 am 
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A car is not considered a being, or a collective of beings.

I think they latched onto that word because it begins with auto.

I am aware of that. Cars do have names. Artificial intelligence is in control, not you. It is a matter of perspective. Automobiles have some crazy names. We should start a thread on it.

Open the pod bay doors, Hal.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:57 am 
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I am aware of that. Cars do have names. Artificial intelligence is in control, not you. It is a matter of perspective. Automobiles have some crazy names. We should start a thread on it.

Open the pod bay doors, Hal.


Fox we don't have Artificial intelligence yet. Those cars have an advanced control system which work within programmed parameters utilizing both internal and external input. The car is not capable of existing independently. If it is unable to access supporting external input such as GPS to know where it is it has to shut down until it can reestablish that external input. If it gets into a situation it's not programmed for like a road bypass with cops in the roadway waving their hands it has to have a human there to take over, or shut down and wait for human instruction it can understand.

Imagine a parking lot. The car may be able to identify empty parking places but I doubt it would be able to know which spots are for handicapped persons, which are reserved for doctors, or policemen. The car might be able to display a layout of the lot showing the empty spots, but it will require a human being to point to a parking spot on the screen selecting where the car should pull into and stop.

It's not going to be able to decide where it wants to go, what to do once it gets there, or when it should return.


BTW, my car is named Ōnamazu, and it's a he not a she. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:31 pm 
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Fox we don't have Artificial intelligence yet. Those cars have an advanced control system which work within programmed parameters utilizing both internal and external input. The car is not capable of existing independently. If it is unable to access supporting external input such as GPS to know where it is it has to shut down until it can reestablish that external input. If it gets into a situation it's not programmed for like a road bypass with cops in the roadway waving their hands it has to have a human there to take over, or shut down and wait for human instruction it can understand.

Imagine a parking lot. The car may be able to identify empty parking places but I doubt it would be able to know which spots are for handicapped persons, which are reserved for doctors, or policemen. The car might be able to display a layout of the lot showing the empty spots, but it will require a human being to point to a parking spot on the screen selecting where the car should pull into and stop.

It's not going to be able to decide where it wants to go, what to do once it gets there, or when it should return.


BTW, my car is named Ōnamazu, and it's a he not a she. :)

Little do you know, artificial intelligence is always going to have parameters. Artificial intelligence, which I have studied, thinks and makes decisions, and that has been around for a long time.

As usual, you want to own the definition of all words and concepts. Sorry you fail to see that.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:12 am 
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What kind of INFORMATION does Facebook provide? I'm thinking it is only subliminal messages.


:problem:

That's probably because you're not on Facebook.

People get their news from Facebook -- self included -- because not simply news organizations (along with every tinfoilhat "organization" you please) post breaking news to Facebook, but have specialized pages a lot like sections of news papers.

Because Facebook works the way it does, fbofw, news organizations have been able to create Facebook-specific pages. It can be by demographic or by language or by anything their viewers are likely to look at. Like Detusche Welle English, DW Akademie, Detusche Welle Arabic, Detusche Welle Stories, Detusche Welle Lernen (learn German), etc.

You should also know that there are tons of tinfoilhat pages on Facebook that peddle -- surprise, surprise -- conspiracy theories like the deep state, and worse.

Quote:
Their little info-commercials are also detour signs to indecent places not fitting to find reliable information. Facebook is planning to remove them, from what I have read. We should be so grateful to them for giving up such rewarding financial schemes. I will wait to see their words come to fruition. I'm not holding my breath.


What "infomercials" are you even talking about?

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Last edited by carmenjonze on Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:41 pm 
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Lying & Deceit being the general topic got obscured very quickly, so I'll recap.

[] Glenn Greenwald is a messenger of bad news. Pun not intended.

[] The Deep State, something of a theory that I have never endorsed, is another side track that went nowhere.

[] Facebook is a terrible place and is used a lot despite of that fact. Groups seem to get a chance to keep in touch which is handy. It is more of a utility that needs regulating.

[] Artificial Intelligence is a scary word.

Many people ask, "Is the media lying on purpose?"

Chomsky
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwZYsNTqe98

Well, the answer is simply yes.

Is it for money, power, fear, or a lost sense of morality. Here, I say I don't care, but there is a theory about manufacturing consent that derives from a sense of moral duty to lead the unsophisticated public in the right direction. I am of course opposed to such an idea, and would rather trust people with just the facts. This theory might be argued here.

Lying, how far can it go?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:44 pm 
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Lying & Deceit being the general topic got obscured very quickly, so I'll recap.


Nothing got obscured, you just don't have answers to questions that challenge your assertions. Big difference.

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[] Glenn Greenwald is a messenger of bad news. Pun not intended.

[] The Deep State, something of a theory that I have never endorsed,


Which is bullcrap on its face, because you endorsed it right in this thread, your own words being

We live in a Orwellian world with a deep state more than you want to admit

:problem: sure, we do.

To your credit, you're not very good at gaslighting. The last time you tried this was when you tried to claim voting for Jill Stein was somehow -- incredibly -- endorsing HRC and not supporting Jill.

Who do you think falls for this manufactured garbage?

Quote:
is another side track that went nowhere.

[] Facebook is a terrible place and is used a lot despite of that fact. Groups seem to get a chance to keep in touch which is handy. It is more of a utility that needs regulating.

[] Artificial Intelligence is a scary word.

Many people ask, "Is the media lying on purpose?"

Chomsky
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwZYsNTqe98

Well, the answer is simply yes.

Is it for money, power, fear, or a lost sense of morality. Here, I say I don't care, but there is a theory about manufacturing consent that derives from a sense of moral duty to lead the unsophisticated public in the right direction. I am of course opposed to such an idea, and would rather trust people with just the facts. This theory might be argued here.

Lying, how far can it go?


Facebook is certainly a terrible place if you have a terrible friends list, and follow terrible pages. If you wish, you can cultivate a better friends list and follow better pages, though. Nice thing is, FB is totally voluntary. So that means you don't have to do any of it.

But it also means you have to actually be on it to know much about it, let along pontificate about a third of the planet which make up its active users. You can't get any more elitist than this.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:54 pm 
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[] Glenn Greenwald is a messenger of bad news. Pun not intended.


He should stop congratulating Breitbart, which is bad news. By that, I mean, it is a bad place to get news. All ironies intended.

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[] Facebook is a terrible place and is used a lot despite of that fact. Groups seem to get a chance to keep in touch which is handy. It is more of a utility that needs regulating.


I don't think that was what I was seeking to convey. There are a lot of great things on Facebook, I agree with Carmen.

However, I think Mark Zuckerberg didn't seem to care that people were using it to spread disinformation during the election, and honestly, I see that as the main problem. Of course, they shouldn't be controlling speech on their platform, I'm not talking about censoring points of view. However, should you just shrug when people are using your platform to commit fraud and deception? BTW, Twitter just let thousands of people know on Twitter they interacted with thousands of fake bots. Well ... it's a start.

I think there's going to be a section on that in the Mueller Report.

Quote:
[] Artificial Intelligence is a scary word.


It's a side topic. But since it was brought up, allow me to note that we tend to have this belief that algorithms are always fair. After all, AI's don't cheat or lie. But ... they are programmed by human beings.

The weird thing is, you can write a computer program that cheats and gerrymanders and it looks like that's being done. Or ... you can also write software that prevents gerrymandering.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/arti ... algorithms

All depends on who's writing the code, and then what they set it to do. But you can't just assume that computers will always do things fairly as long as they are programmed by human programmers.

Quote:
Here, I say I don't care, but there is a theory about manufacturing consent that derives from a sense of moral duty to lead the unsophisticated public in the right direction. I am of course opposed to such an idea, and would rather trust people with just the facts. This theory might be argued here.


There is never a reason for the media to lie. (*) If you think someone else is arguing it ... well, I know I'm not. Of course, the real problem is separating errors and mistakes, which happen, from intentional deceit. When people admit errors shortly after making them ... I usually assume it's because they, well, made errors.

I know, who we will and will not give the benefit of the doubt. Always an interesting topic.

(*) Even if Faux News argued for this "right" under the 1st amendment, a featured segment in the movie The Corporation.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:23 pm 
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He should stop congratulating Breitbart, which is bad news. By that, I mean, it is a bad place to get news. All ironies intended.



I don't think that was what I was seeking to convey. There are a lot of great things on Facebook, I agree with Carmen.

However, I think Mark Zuckerberg didn't seem to care that people were using it to spread disinformation during the election, and honestly, I see that as the main problem. Of course, they shouldn't be controlling speech on their platform, I'm not talking about censoring points of view. However, should you just shrug when people are using your platform to commit fraud and deception? BTW, Twitter just let thousands of people know on Twitter they interacted with thousands of fake bots. Well ... it's a start.

I think there's going to be a section on that in the Mueller Report.



It's a side topic. But since it was brought up, allow me to note that we tend to have this belief that algorithms are always fair. After all, AI's don't cheat or lie. But ... they are programmed by human beings.

The weird thing is, you can write a computer program that cheats and gerrymanders and it looks like that's being done. Or ... you can also write software that prevents gerrymandering.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/arti ... algorithms

All depends on who's writing the code, and then what they set it to do. But you can't just assume that computers will always do things fairly as long as they are programmed by human programmers.



There is never a reason for the media to lie. (*) If you think someone else is arguing it ... well, I know I'm not. Of course, the real problem is separating errors and mistakes, which happen, from intentional deceit. When people admit errors shortly after making them ... I usually assume it's because they, well, made errors.

I know, who we will and will not give the benefit of the doubt. Always an interesting topic.

(*) Even if Faux News argued for this "right" under the 1st amendment, a featured segment in the movie The Corporation.

Interesting point about algorithms, which is scary.

I didn't mean that you approved of lying. But, it is quite a lot of deception and misleading going on that we have to filter out. I don't thing that everything I disagree with is a lie. Large financial contributors decide what is news and what is real. Omission of the truth is not honest reporting.

Confusion around what is a lie, needs to be taken more seriously.

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Last edited by TheFox on Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:31 am 
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Interesting point about algorithms, which is scary.


It's not scary at all, if you take the time to understand how they are used. That means you can understand something about how they are manipulated.

Every time you put a search term into a search engine, your results have been manipulated. But there are ways around the manipulation, if you understand what is going on.

A lot of this really boils down to internet literacy and how willing one is to self-educate. For relatively low cost, like 50 bucks for four sessions, you can learn how digital marketing works, for example. Places like Udacity, Coursera, Khan Academy, etc., will sometimes let you audit courses for free and no credit.

There is an additional benefit to this. You can also learn how to make these things work for your cause or organization.

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