Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

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Toonces
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by Toonces »

The government, like it or not, needs to collect taxes in order to do government stuff. They need to collect it from someone. If Musk, or Bezos, or Zuckerberg is not paying tax then the government turns to you to collect that tax. Basically, you're paying more in tax so the billionaires don't have to.

This doesn't seem particularly fair. They can certainly afford to pay taxes on their value. Of course, keeping it all tied up in stocks allows them to bypass being a contributing member of society yet still enables them to 'borrow' from the company they own to build them a half-billion-dollar yacht.

When I say this sort of thing the standard response seems to be that their job creators. This notion relies heavily on the idea that without Musk or Bezos, those people would be unemployed. That's obviously ludicrous.

If YOU want to pay lower taxes you're going to have to insist that the uber-wealthy and corporations pay more. Personally, I'd fully support corporations paying more in tax if it could mean I'd pay less.

But they'd raise prices! Well, that kind of negates capitalism, doesn't it? I mean, capitalism is (should be) about competition, right? That means offering better products/services at better prices.

Then they'd just cut staff! I mean, I guess, but employee numbers has never been determined by how much free money the company has (also the "rich invest" angle). It's all determined by supply and demand. Your staffing is based on demand. Rich people don't invest money in hopes that'll increase demand but in reaction to an increase in demand. Can't tax rich people because they won't invest has always been the stupidest of arguments.


/END BABBLE
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Number6
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

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Toonces wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:19 pm The government, like it or not, needs to collect taxes in order to do government stuff. They need to collect it from someone. If Musk, or Bezos, or Zuckerberg is not paying tax then the government turns to you to collect that tax. Basically, you're paying more in tax so the billionaires don't have to.
Simply, but effectively said about our tax structure today.
This doesn't seem particularly fair. They can certainly afford to pay taxes on their value. Of course, keeping it all tied up in stocks allows them to bypass being a contributing member of society yet still enables them to 'borrow' from the company they own to build them a half-billion-dollar yacht.
The problem with taxing value is who determines the value of something and how subjective is it. I can see where you have X amount of stock at the end of the year it's value is multiplied by the number of shares times the closing prices at the end of the year. But how do you assess the value of property like real estate, art work, or simple things like a coin collection, which has both monetary and intrinsic value, that is subjective? I could see doing a wealth tax of things like the amount of stock you own over a certain value but
When I say this sort of thing the standard response seems to be that their job creators. This notion relies heavily on the idea that without Musk or Bezos, those people would be unemployed. That's obviously ludicrous.
In some cases that might be true but overall the number of people who would be unemployed would be statically minuscule.
If YOU want to pay lower taxes you're going to have to insist that the uber-wealthy and corporations pay more. Personally, I'd fully support corporations paying more in tax if it could mean I'd pay less.
We don't need the uber-wealthy and corporations to pay more to lower our taxes. We need them to help pay for things needed now and in the future.
But they'd raise prices! Well, that kind of negates capitalism, doesn't it? I mean, capitalism is (should be) about competition, right? That means offering better products/services at better prices.
We've seen the pharmaceutical raising prices, to the point it's price gouging, but the supply, demand, production costs, and quality hasn't changed. The only reasons to raise prices is to make up the taxes the wealthy would have to pay on a wealth tax. So much for free trade, free markets, and supply/demand theories.
Then they'd just cut staff! I mean, I guess, but employee numbers has never been determined by how much free money the company has (also the "rich invest" angle). It's all determined by supply and demand. Your staffing is based on demand. Rich people don't invest money in hopes that'll increase demand but in reaction to an increase in demand. Can't tax rich people because they won't invest has always been the stupidest of arguments.


/END BABBLE
Companies cut staffing to increase their profits shifting the work the of the staff cut onto the remaining staff with no increase in wages/salaries. Up to a certain point that will work but in the end the company loses because the remaining staff will either demand higher wages/salaries or will leave for a better job and the company will have to hire replacements and incur training costs.
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Glennfs
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by Glennfs »

Number6 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:11 pm Simply, but effectively said about our tax structure today.


The problem with taxing value is who determines the value of something and how subjective is it. I can see where you have X amount of stock at the end of the year it's value is multiplied by the number of shares times the closing prices at the end of the year. But how do you assess the value of property like real estate, art work, or simple things like a coin collection, which has both monetary and intrinsic value, that is subjective? I could see doing a wealth tax of things like the amount of stock you own over a certain value but


In some cases that might be true but overall the number of people who would be unemployed would be statically minuscule.


We don't need the uber-wealthy and corporations to pay more to lower our taxes. We need them to help pay for things needed now and in the future.


We've seen the pharmaceutical raising prices, to the point it's price gouging, but the supply, demand, production costs, and quality hasn't changed. The only reasons to raise prices is to make up the taxes the wealthy would have to pay on a wealth tax. So much for free trade, free markets, and supply/demand theories.


Companies cut staffing to increase their profits shifting the work the of the staff cut onto the remaining staff with no increase in wages/salaries. Up to a certain point that will work but in the end the company loses because the remaining staff will either demand higher wages/salaries or will leave for a better job and the company will have to hire replacements and incur training costs.
What ir comes down to is democratic party representatives are politically afraid to raise tax rates and cut deductions. Case in point they are going to cancel SALT.
The wealth tax aka confiscating people's property is a back door way to raise the top taxes rate to 60pct or higher. Possibly as high as over 100pct.
Doing so in a manner that low information voters won't realize and informed liberal voters will support.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
gounion
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:19 pm What ir comes down to is democratic party representatives are politically afraid to raise tax rates and cut deductions. Case in point they are going to cancel SALT.
The wealth tax aka confiscating people's property is a back door way to raise the top taxes rate to 60pct or higher. Possibly as high as over 100pct.
Doing so in a manner that low information voters won't realize and informed liberal voters will support.
And you're the number ONE defender of the ultra rich. You want to make sure they aren't bothered by those pesky taxes. That's for us little people to pay, right?
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

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gounion wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:20 pm And you're the number ONE defender of the ultra rich. You want to make sure they aren't bothered by those pesky taxes. That's for us little people to pay, right?
I just know what happened when HW Bush raised taxes on yachts. The only people it effected were those who built yachts.
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:25 pm I just know what happened when HW Bush raised taxes on yachts. The only people it effected were those who built yachts.
Prove it.

I built business jets. Didn't hurt me at all.
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

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gounion wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:20 pm And you're the number ONE defender of the ultra rich. You want to make sure they aren't bothered by those pesky taxes. That's for us little people to pay, right?
Let's look at the Walton's a family you consider to be enemies of the state.
They own about 1.5 billion shares of Walmart wirth about 215 billion. The dividend is about 3.3 billion of which about 600 million is the tax bill leaving 2.7 billion.
Their wealth tax would be at 2pct about 4.3 billion. Making there total tax bill on an income of 3.3 billion 4.9 billion or 148pct.
Of course you are all for that because you srent a socialist and have no socialist leanings or beliefs.
Start taxing those wealthy people at 148pct of their income and at the end of the day the people who will suffer is people like you and I.
But your hatred for the successful will never let you ever consider that.
" I am a socialist " Bernie Sanders
Glennfs
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

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gounion wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:31 pm Prove it.

I built business jets. Didn't hurt me at all.
Now you are lying because we both know I've proven it yo you on more than one occasion.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 8c42cf55b/

https://www.chegg.com/homework-help/que ... -q56085328

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/03/opin ... 26091.html

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-less ... the-1990s/

How many links that you won't read will be enough
Last edited by Glennfs on Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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gounion
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:32 pm Let's look at the Walton's a family you consider to be enemies of the state.
They own about 1.5 billion shares of Walmart wirth about 215 billion. The dividend is about 3.3 billion of which about 600 million is the tax bill leaving 2.7 billion.
Their wealth tax would be at 2pct about 4.3 billion. Making there total tax bill on an income of 3.3 billion 4.9 billion or 148pct.
Of course you are all for that because you srent a socialist and have no socialist leanings or beliefs.
Start taxing those wealthy people at 148pct of their income and at the end of the day the people who will suffer is people like you and I.
But your hatred for the successful will never let you ever consider that.
But it's not an income tax. It's a wealth tax. Nothing to do with income.

If they had to actually pay taxes on their wealth, would they miss any meals?
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:32 pm Now you are lying because we both know I've proven it yo you on more than one occasion.
You ASSERTED it all the time. Never proved anything.

Sales of luxury items always go down when there's an economic downturn. Our business was always cyclical, because if the economy turns, they can always put off buying a new jet. We stopped being affected when the new business model of fractional ownership started.
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:35 pm You ASSERTED it all the time. Never proved anything.

Sales of luxury items always go down when there's an economic downturn. Our business was always cyclical, because if the economy turns, they can always put off buying a new jet. We stopped being affected when the new business model of fractional ownership started.
I just posted 4 links please look at them then admit you are wrong
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

Glennfs wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:38 pm I just posted 4 links please look at them then admit you are wrong
One of those was a letter to the editor, which said not one dollar was collected, which is a lie.

Look, there really hasn't been a boat industry in America for decades. Do you know how many cruise ships are manufactured here? ZERO.

Most boats are made overseas, where labor is far cheaper.
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by Glennfs »

gounion wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:43 pm One of those was a letter to the editor, which said not one dollar was collected, which is a lie.

Look, there really hasn't been a boat industry in America for decades. Do you know how many cruise ships are manufactured here? ZERO.

Most boats are made overseas, where labor is far cheaper.
4 links not enough.......sigh
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Number6
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

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Glennfs wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:19 pm What ir comes down to is democratic party representatives are politically afraid to raise tax rates and cut deductions.
No, they just want the wealthy, whom you obey like the good serf you are, to pay their fair share.
Case in point they are going to cancel SALT.
I know you think SALT stand for NaCl (salt) but it isn't). It stands for State and Local Taxes which the Democrats want to reinstate into the federal tax code after the republicans and Trump did away with them to give the wealth a $2 trillion tax break.
The wealth tax aka confiscating people's property is a back door way to raise the top taxes rate to 60pct or higher. Possibly as high as over 100pct.
No, it's a way of ensuring wealth isn't concentrated into the hands of an extremely small number of individuals who don't pay their fair share of taxes under a progressive tax system. The wealthy have bought politicians to keep their taxes low and have convinced rubes, like yourself, convinced the wealthy are overtaxes and being picked on.
Doing so in a manner that low information voters won't realize and informed liberal voters will support.
Most liberals aren't low information voters because they don't except statements without getting factual answers to their questions. Unlike conservative voters who are told something and when the words "Freedom" and "Merica" attached to it.
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Bludogdem
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

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Glennfs wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:19 pm What ir comes down to is democratic party representatives are politically afraid to raise tax rates and cut deductions. Case in point they are going to cancel SALT.
The wealth tax aka confiscating people's property is a back door way to raise the top taxes rate to 60pct or higher. Possibly as high as over 100pct.
Doing so in a manner that low information voters won't realize and informed liberal voters will support.
I've advocated taxing “Carried interest” as income, which it is. It was actually a part of Build Back Better. Until it wasn’t.

Short of an amendment there will never be a wealth tax.

People like Bezos and Musk generate vast sums for the government through business creativity. And they pay taxes - in the millions and billions. Tim Cook was awarded $750 million in stock for a 10 year performance. Apple withheld $397 million for taxes. Only a fool thinks these people don’t pay taxes. How else does the 1% pay such a large part of federal taxes. Common sense people. Common sense.
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by Glennfs »

Bludogdem wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:01 pm I've advocated taxing “Carried interest” as income, which it is. It was actually a part of Build Back Better. Until it wasn’t.

Short of an amendment there will never be a wealth tax.

People like Bezos and Musk generate vast sums for the government through business creativity. And they pay taxes - in the millions and billions. Tim Cook was awarded $750 million in stock for a 10 year performance. Apple withheld $397 million for taxes. Only a fool thinks these people don’t pay taxes. How else does the 1% pay such a large part of federal taxes. Common sense people. Common sense.
The Walton's own 1.5 billion shares of Walmart stock the dividend on it is about 3billion a year the tax on.it is about 600 million.
But according to liberals they don't pay taxes and their fare share is about 150pct of their income
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gounion
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

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Bludogdem wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:01 pm I've advocated taxing “Carried interest” as income, which it is. It was actually a part of Build Back Better. Until it wasn’t.

Short of an amendment there will never be a wealth tax.

People like Bezos and Musk generate vast sums for the government through business creativity. And they pay taxes - in the millions and billions. Tim Cook was awarded $750 million in stock for a 10 year performance. Apple withheld $397 million for taxes. Only a fool thinks these people don’t pay taxes. How else does the 1% pay such a large part of federal taxes. Common sense people. Common sense.
Yeah, did common sense tell you Donald Trump pays billions in taxes, too?

Here's common sense: The rich scam the system all they can, and they give a lot of money to politicians to put more and more loopholes for them into the code.

If the system is so damned fair, how can Donald Trump not pay any income taxes many years?

The reason they pay such a percentage is that they have all the fucking money. But Mitt Romney still pays a smaller percentage of his income in taxes than I did before I retired.
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by carmenjonze »

Bludogdem wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:01 pmCommon sense people. Common sense.
Trump says it was ‘common sense’ for Jan. 6 rioters to chant ‘Hang Mike Pence!’ - WP
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:10 pm Yeah, did common sense tell you Donald Trump pays billions in taxes, too?

Here's common sense: The rich scam the system all they can, and they give a lot of money to politicians to put more and more loopholes for them into the code.

If the system is so damned fair, how can Donald Trump not pay any income taxes many years?

The reason they pay such a percentage is that they have all the fucking money. But Mitt Romney still pays a smaller percentage of his income in taxes than I did before I retired.
Because he’s in real estate development.

From 2016 to 2018 Mitt paid an effective rate of 21% on $83 million. I doubt you got to the 21% effective rate.
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

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Bludogdem wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:18 pm Because he’s in real estate development.

From 2016 to 2018 Mitt paid an effective rate of 21% on $83 million. I doubt you got to the 21% effective rate.
Romney paid as low as 13%.

And the "effective rate" is a scam. Because they can hide so damned much of their income in ways I can't. BIG difference in the REAL income and their TAXABLE income.
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by Bludogdem »

gounion wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:23 pm Romney paid as low as 13%.

And the "effective rate" is a scam. Because they can hide so damned much of their income in ways I can't. BIG difference in the REAL income and their TAXABLE income.
No they have to list all the income. Dividends, stock awards, stock options, in kind, bartering, trading. Mitt cashed out $83 million fro 2016 to 2018 and 21% went to Uncle Sam.
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by gounion »

Bludogdem wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:29 pm No they have to list all the income. Dividends, stock awards, stock options, in kind, bartering, trading. Mitt cashed out $83 million fro 2016 to 2018 and 21% went to Uncle Sam.
Do you have Mitt Romney's tax returns from 2016 to 2018?
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

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We can waste all day talking about individual cases. I view that as a waste of time. Musk, Romney, Trump, Bezos, the Man in the Moon. Who gives a F? I don't.

I prefer to look at aggregate data.

Image

It speaks. And nuff said. The source of the graph is NYT, from work by Saez and Gucman.

Yes, we have had a decently progressive tax system, starting with the institution of the income tax in the early 20th century, which I will only note some conservatives fought, and some are STILL claiming is un-Constitutional or fighting today.

But, it has become less progressive over the last few decades, most notably starting with Raygun in the 80s.You know what's common sense? Looking at aggregate data.
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

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Glennfs wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:03 pm The Walton's own 1.5 billion shares of Walmart stock the dividend on it is about 3billion a year the tax on.it is about 600 million.
But according to liberals they don't pay taxes and their fare share is about 150pct of their income
I don't think anyone is advocating that they be taxed at 150%. I don't think anyone is suggesting that if they make $1 on their stocks that they be taxed on their entire holdings.

Again, though, glen, since they aren't paying any taxes on their wealth it means you are. If there are 5 of you and the tax bill is $100, and each of you should pay $20 but one of you who 'investments' that aren't taxed, that means 4 of you will be paying $25. A simplistic example, absolutely. Do you think it fair, though?
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Re: Elon Musk is worth 286 billion

Post by JoeMemphis »

Toonces wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:29 pm I don't think anyone is advocating that they be taxed at 150%. I don't think anyone is suggesting that if they make $1 on their stocks that they be taxed on their entire holdings.

Again, though, glen, since they aren't paying any taxes on their wealth it means you are. If there are 5 of you and the tax bill is $100, and each of you should pay $20 but one of you who 'investments' that aren't taxed, that means 4 of you will be paying $25. A simplistic example, absolutely. Do you think it fair, though?
Taxing “wealth” will only invite game playing. You going to get everything appraised every year. What happens in a downturn, you going to refund the losses. What happens in the next upturn, you going to retax me on the gains recovered? There’s all kinds of problems taxing unrealized gains. Not to mention the fact that the folks affected by those types of taxes are a hellava lot smarter than the tax guys or the legislators. So you will wind up with tons more money off shore where the US can’t touch it.

Maybe a better idea is to figure out something that isn’t a money grab and that is “fair” and make it easy and reasonable for people to do the right thing. I’m always amused when people say the wealthy ought to pay their fair share and yet they can never say what exactly that means. I’m also amused when folks say that we need more entitlement/safety net programs and yet are unwilling to contribute to them and want someone else to pay the tab.

I’ve talked to a fair number of investors and they always want to know what the person benefiting from their investment is willing to put up in a deal. If that number is zero, their chances of getting any money drops substantially. The day is coming when we all these entitlement obligations will need to be funded and the politicians will be forced to actually pay for their promises and they won’t be able to get it from just the rich.
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